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Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 7:08:57 AM   
cravinspankin


Posts: 127
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		Hi all,
It's been some time since i posted here. But i have something i'd like some input on.
I am a submissive female who founded and runs a local BDSM group. We have a highly active group, with some kind of gathering almost every weekend: a munch and play party at the local dungeon; a monthly lifestyle discussion group in a member's home; karoake once a month; a new craft guild; and we also gather for dinner before a large community munch.
We also do a lot of online conversation through the yahoo group.
The problem is, i've heard several times from folks who think i MUST be a dominant, not submissive.
This weekend i was leading our discussion group. We had some guest speakers, but we had taken a break and i had to raise my voice to be heard above the din of conversation to request that we all take our seats and resume the discussion.
Someone said something like, "are you sure your'e a submissive. I think you're more dominant."
I know i shouldn't let it bother me. But it does, and i ended up going home that night, not even saying hello to my housemate and his slave, shutting my bedroom door and crying myself to sleep.
It seems that many Doms don't even consider me as a potential sub or slave -- i get overlooked, and from the comments i get like this, which certainly isn't the first time, i get the impression part of it is because they don't see me as a sub, because i'm a strong leader.
As leader of a group, i have to be able to take a firm hand at times, when folks are getting out of line, and have to be able to get things moving and keep the events flowing.
Is it generally perceived that if you're a strong leader in other areas that you can't possibly be submissive?
I have to be independent and assertive in my job. I have to be the same with the group.
But what they don't know is that sometimes i ache to be able to turn to someone and say, "tell me what to do about this situation with this issue in my group!" rather than having to make the decisions on my own.
What they don't see is that while i consider what i do in many ways a service to the community and the members of the group, i am not submissie to them. I am submissive in my personal relationships with men. I NEED to give up control, to allow someone else to take over, i NEED to be able to serve, to do all i can to make that Dominant happy and well pleased with me, i NEED to be used for His enjoyment.
I am seeing a Dominant right now. But we're sort of long distance and don't get to spend much time with each other. And when we do, it's often at a group function, where i have to be in my leadership mode. So they don't get to see much personal interaction.
I guess this post is two-fold, to hopefully help folks see that just because someone is a leader in teh community doesn't mean that they must be Dominant. Some of the best submissives are highly-organized, effective, take-control types in other aspects of their lives. In fact, the skills we submissives who are leaders have can be a great asset in a household.
Secondly, i guess im looking for some advice on how to handle this, when someone says something like that.
I've told them basically what i've said here. That i'm submissive in my personal relationships. Being a good leader doesn't make me less submissive.
But it gets incredibly frustrating to hear it a lot.

peace to all,
cravin
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 7:20:08 AM   
ONEDEMANDINGMSTR


Posts: 47
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		cravin'.......

My advice to you is just be who you are. The very best subs I've been with are not only dominant in their public lives, but many have been professionals. You don't need to proclaim your submissiveness to anyone, unless you feel it will enhance your 'chances'.

It's quite common for a 'take charge' kinda woman to NEED the freedom of being owned. Having periods of time when she doesn't have to make decisions.................but just let someone she trusts 'take her there'!!! No need for her to plan/organize/control........just able to totally release her inner submissive and love it.

Any Dom who's been around knows that a submissive woman can be equally effective in both roles.

1DEMANDING

(in reply to cravinspankin)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 7:28:55 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Stereotypes abound.

And anyone smart enough to think for half a second will realize how false those stereotypes are- anyone else really isn't worth listening to.

Being a leader of an alt group means that you'll always be doing at least 80% of the work.  Unless you can find a competent second hand man or successor, or unless you just give up- it's going to stay like that.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ONEDEMANDINGMSTR)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 8:04:36 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		My personal reaction to anyone who would publicly call into question your scene role based on your public role as organization leader is that that person is feeling insecure about their won identity so they lash out. I feel sorry for people who do that once and increasingly annoyed by those who continue this behavior.

Because they are buying into stereotypes you may well have to deal with some questions from others who also buy into the limited ideas of what it means to identify with a scene role and how that is played out in non-Ds situations. It may be difficult to ignore them so I'd think about finding supportive people you can check in with regularly who will back up what you know to be true: you are doing a good job.

The group is a non-Ds situation after all, I mean, did you agree to be everyone's sub in that group? Doubtful. Therefore your interaction with them is pretty vanilla -- would you lead differently if it was a group about fashion or a book club or a cooking club? In order for groups to function, specific things need to happen and roles need to be fulfilled it is a matter of the group not of the topic or subject.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to cravinspankin)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 8:12:19 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Submissives often make the very best group leaders because unlike many dominants they don't have an ego so overblown they need a wagon to pull around.

Screw that idiot and the horse he rode in on.  I rarely say this in public but many so called dominants couldn't dominate their own shadow.  Their insecurity rules their every action and seeing you, a submissive, run a group they themselves know they couldn't do triggers those insecurities deeply and so they have to lash out at you to make themselves feel better.

Tiny men tear others down in a vain attempt to make themselves feel bigger.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 8:19:05 AM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		A lot of the public scene (at least around here) is inundated with wanker "Me Dom, you sub" drama. Anyone who isn't aware that submissives can be group leaders, and good ones, in charge of keeping order around a lot of wanker idiots posing as Doms, they don't have a grasp of reality and are just as well overlooked. Their horses that Michael pointed out, are best overlooked as well, and aren't worth the effort to harness and crop them.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 8:23:04 AM   
Hisbellaluna


Posts: 127
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline 		Using FR to the OP

i've read it on these boards that group and event organizers and leaders are organizational masochists...

but just my two cents...leading a group is a service...yes you have to make decisions and soothe egos - i mean diffuse fights- and do all the assertive and sometimes agressive things, but it is for the betterment of the community, or at least i assume thats why you're doing it...so...its a service...how is that inately anything much less automatically Dominant?
my imediate response to someone saying something like that to me, were i in your shoes would be "my leadership is a service to this community"...and if they can find something negative to say about that then they are probably assholes, not in need of any more of your attention...
good job on what you've done for your community, and in case no one has said it lately, i'm proud of you, its a hard job...

His bella luna

_____________________________

Formerly known as chellekitty...

Do not be like servants who serve their masters expecting to receive a reward; be rather like servants who serve their master unconditionally, with no thought of reward. --Antigonus of Sokho

(in reply to slaveish)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 8:55:19 AM   
EclipseAbove


Posts: 220
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline 		I've seen this kind of issue come up fairly often.  For some reason many people have trouble realizing that someone's orientation does not apply all the time in every circumstance.  It is a really nice fantasy that dominants have the final say with everything and submissives always quietly obey everyone.  But real life just isn't like that.  Also, people who insist on having one orientation that dictates their behavior all the time are generally seen as either being an a-hole or a door mat.  For example the dominant who refuses to follow the instructions of a discussion group leader - what a jerk.  Or the submissive that refuses to say anything when their basic rights are tampled on - what a pathetic loser.

So, you are the leader of your local group.  You have taken on the responsibility of being dominant for the sake of the group and its members.  The group needs someone to keep order and take charge.  That will probably cause most people to have the wrong impression of you.  The people in your group see you as a dominant because you do your job and take charge over them (by the way, congrats - running a group is not easy).  That is going to decrease the number of people at your local group who will find you appealing as a submissive.  It is like finding out one of your oldest male friends is a crossdresser.  In your mind, that person is likely to always be a "he" no matter what.  To some, you will always be the woman in charge.

I have to agree with you that submissives that can take charge in other areas do have assets to bring to the table.  Personally, I don't find people who are overly submissive in most areas of their lives very appealing.  I want someone who chooses to give up their power to me and that means they have to have some power to give up in the first place.  As for what to do, there isn't much except for what has already been offered.  Either you keep being the leader of the group and simply express that you identify as submissive or find someone else to be the leader.  You might want to consider keeping it short and sweet with the folks that see you as dominant or question it.  A response like "Yep, I'm submissive when you get me home, but right now I've got to get things here under control" might work just as well as the long explaination.  They will either understand and get it or they won't.  But no matter what, you shouldn't let it get you down.

< Message edited by EclipseAbove -- 8/13/2007 8:57:24 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 9:28:20 AM   
e01n


Posts: 1472
Status: offline 		To the contrary, the person sharing this opinion is confused and ignorant. NB: not stupid, just lacking information that provides clarity of understanding.

Cure his ignorance or not. But it's their problem, not yours.

(in reply to EclipseAbove)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 9:45:55 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		There's nothing that can be done about uneducated bias.  Having met the same sort of situation before, I often feel like these dominants are daring me to prove myself to him, which of course, I won't do.  I don't need to prove anything to anyone, and nor should you, cravin.  As long as you and the dominant you are seeing are pleased in your relationship, then it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.  On a side note, a group I once belonged to lost a member because we held elections for offices.  He didn't feel that submissives should hold an office, only dominants.  *rolls eyes*  Needless to say, most of the elected were submissives.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to e01n)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 10:31:24 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: e01n

To the contrary, the person sharing this opinion is confused and ignorant. NB: not stupid, just lacking information that provides clarity of understanding.

Cure his ignorance or not. But it's their problem, not yours.


What he said.

It's ignorance, plain and simple.  And you are not obligated to justify or defend yourself.  You can explain to him what is, or not, it's your choice, but not your job.

(in reply to e01n)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 10:46:16 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		some Dominants prefer or desire a submissive who is not dominant or any authoratative role in any aspect of their lives, instead they find their partner's constant submissive nature precious and pleasing. they do not desire a submissive who has a dichotomy in their nature...submissive to some or in certain situations, dominant or controlling in others. nothing is wrong with this, as long as they do not attempt to make you feel less in some way for not fitting their idea of the ideal submissive.

however a great many Dominants, as you have seen just from some of the responses to this thread, DO desire a submissive who has that dichotomy in nature, and who consider such submission to be of great value and a treasure in itself. nothing is wrong with this either. again, as long as they do not attempt to put down or label as less valuable those submissives who do not fit their ideal.

the important thing is finding a Dominant who shares your view of submission, and who desires your particular type of submissive nature. as far as dealing with those who question your submissiveness, you can let them know that they are entitled to their opinions and beliefs, and if they are uncomfortable with your being a submissive in a position of authority they have every right not to be a part of your group.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 11:13:04 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cravinspankin


Someone said something like, "are you sure your'e a submissive. I think you're more dominant."
I know i shouldn't let it bother me. But it does, and i ended up going home that night, not even saying hello to my housemate and his slave, shutting my bedroom door and crying myself to sleep.



As other's have said take no mind to the morons of society.  I've also ran a successful BDSM group for the better part of 7 year's now.  Paddlers.  I started in So Cal, just recently handed it over to other's.  It has gone downhill since then.  I brought my group with me to the midwest and we are finally starting to make headway here as well.

In any event, I've heard how I am dominant more often than not.  Problem with it is, these people who make these claims mean nothing to me.  Have no clue whatsoever who I am.  No clue how my dominant and I interact.
They just make broad statements that I must be dominant hiding under a submissive guise.  Does it bother me?  Not at all.  It only gives me power over them in my mind.  If they were worth anything to me they would know me and they may have different opinions.  Even if they didn't.  To have happiness in my life I don't need their approval.  I only need my dominants.
Laughable part is, my dominant orders me to take charge during my groups.  To smack those who need to be smacked for acting the wrong way etc.
Don't let the clueless rule your life for you and you'll be better off.

(in reply to cravinspankin)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 11:49:43 AM   
leatherette


Posts: 255
Status: offline

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 12:14:08 PM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		I believe there's something else going on here as well, because I've run into this more times than you can imagine. I mean, I'm a lifestyle submissive, but I'm also formerly a West Point officer, which means I've picked up a few leadership skills here and there. Dominants CONSTANTLY would remind me that I'm a submissive, and thus, why am I acting "dominant"?

I see something other than the original concern going on in a lot of these circumstances. I actually think these so called dominants believe they're being humorous in their negative comments. It's usually that situation where a submissive leader is going way out of his or her way to make sure things are being done so the group can benefit, and then this dominant decides to state for about the millionth time that you seem more dominant than submissive, thinking it's the most original joke that has ever occurred in the history of joke telling, even if he has told this joke every day in every social gathering he has ever been in. People who don't understand humor, and I believe these people fit directly in this category, have zero idea that they're really not funny and that their jokes are actually harmful rather than humorous.

A lot of times, in my experience, these types of comments are made by dominants who have no ability to run an organization whatsoever, and this is their ONLY chance to act like they're dominant in an area where they have no experience, nor will they ever have any experience at it. For those that do have such experience, a lot of times it's just straight out jealousy that someone else is actually doing something and gaining respect of a community where they're just active members, not leaders. Some people snipe at any leader of an organization because that's all they're capable of contributing.

I know some people have offered that you should just ignore it and self-power yourself with knowledge, but I take a different tact. Often, I'll state, "well, are you willing to step up to the plate and take over?" to which there's usually a half-hearted defensive response that NEVER amounts to an acknowledgement to do anything in the future so this poor submissive won't have to do any more organizing, or I'll get the infamous, "I'm just playing with you" response, to which I often respond (especially if I don't like the person): "Don't then", or "Fuck off then." Yeah, I make a lot of friends with the latter comment.


_____________________________

<---- FYI, this picture looks JUST like me


http://www.littlesarbonn.com/Stickman/Stickman.htm
The Adventures of Stickman and the Unemployed Lego Spaceman

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 12:18:26 PM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

some Dominants prefer or desire a submissive who is not dominant or any authoratative role in any aspect of their lives, instead they find their partner's constant submissive nature precious and pleasing. they do not desire a submissive who has a dichotomy in their nature...submissive to some or in certain situations, dominant or controlling in others. nothing is wrong with this, as long as they do not attempt to make you feel less in some way for not fitting their idea of the ideal submissive.

however a great many Dominants, as you have seen just from some of the responses to this thread, DO desire a submissive who has that dichotomy in nature, and who consider such submission to be of great value and a treasure in itself. nothing is wrong with this either. again, as long as they do not attempt to put down or label as less valuable those submissives who do not fit their ideal.

the important thing is finding a Dominant who shares your view of submission, and who desires your particular type of submissive nature. as far as dealing with those who question your submissiveness, you can let them know that they are entitled to their opinions and beliefs, and if they are uncomfortable with your being a submissive in a position of authority they have every right not to be a part of your group.


Well said .


_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 12:27:30 PM   
LaMspeach


Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
Status: offline 		In the past I was often told I was not submissive and it used to bother me to the point of tears. Until I realized I don’t have to submissive to everyone in the world to be One person’s ideal slave.

I have found that the slaves I identified the most with are strong, self motivated women that can step outside of their comfort zone and do what needs to be done, while still keeping the best interest of their Master in mind. They choose to submit and give their all to another not because they can’t make life decisions but because that is what they choose.

Like you, when I take charge of something that needs to be done and have to give orders to others in order to get it done, I see it as a service not as being a Dom or being in control in any form.

(Short story) I did mediation ( with my Masters permission) for two very good friends in the lifestyle that were very much in love with each other but both were to pig headed to tell the other and only voiced their thoughts to me. So I invited both of them to dinner and sat down with them to help them iron out their problems. I stepped out side my comfort zone, used my mediation skills and to make a long story short they are back together again, not only did he collar her but  they are also very happily married. In the end the Dom told me I did a good job but he no longer thought of me as a submissive like he first thought I was but believed I was a switch. Well I cried and was very upset to the point of not talking to him for a while. In my mind what I did was simply a service to try to get two friends back together, nothing more. (Sorry I rambled)

Two of my favorite sayings are…. What is freely given to everyone has no meaning to anyone.  And just because I am not your ideal slave doesn’t mean I am not His ideal slave.


_____________________________

peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"



(in reply to cravinspankin)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 1:00:08 PM   
leatherette


Posts: 255
Status: offline 		littlesarbonn

I think you are on target with your analysis.

The men are jealous of your intelligence, talent, success +
A few dominant women may be secretly unsure of their own ability
to top a man with so much going for him.

( i think you are super)

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 1:10:43 PM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		The best I ever had tossed at me was "Isn't it improper for submissives to have such lucid opinions?" paired with a sort of uncertain look as if i was abotu to jump out of my skin and present myself as an alien.

I am very assertive in work, family, and community events when I need to be. I'm happy as a clam to be an indian instead of a chief, but if responsibility has been assumed, or placed upon me, I will make sure it's done right. People who don't know anything about D/s or my orientation, simply assume I have great leadership skills and a strong personality. I won't disagree with any of those.

Whenever someone makes a crack or implies I am not a 'true' submissive, I simply smile, and tell them I only submit to those who deserve and earn my submission. If they were particular nasty about the way they said it sometimes I like to throw in a list of high standard requirements for someone to meet before I submit to them... then look the person over pointedly, indicating they obviously don't meet the criteria.
OR
I just point and laugh at them without explination.

Usually the later since I don't often waste breath on idiots trying to explaint he intricacies of my own personal preferences. Long and short of it, be what you are, do what you like, and forget the labels and what other people think the requirements are for labels. Hell make up your own damn label, if anyone asks what you are you can say "I am a whazitorthang who follows a rare branch of teaching from the school of none'o'yodambiznass." Though I'm sure you can come up with more creative titles or labels.

(in reply to leatherette)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Submissives/slaves in leadership roles? - 8/13/2007 1:14:51 PM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherette

littlesarbonn

I think you are on target with your analysis.

The men are jealous of your intelligence, talent, success +
A few dominant women may be secretly unsure of their own ability
to top a man with so much going for him.

( i think you are super)



Gosh. Thanks.


_____________________________

<---- FYI, this picture looks JUST like me


http://www.littlesarbonn.com/Stickman/Stickman.htm
The Adventures of Stickman and the Unemployed Lego Spaceman

(in reply to leatherette)
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