Evolution is a Lie? (Full Version)

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anthrosub -> Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 9:32:39 AM)

Last night, I saw a commercial on TV aimed at discrediting the theory of evolution and urging people to read the bible. It started off recounting a meeting between President Reagan and Gorbachov. After a fine dinner and in reference to being an atheist, Reagan asked Gorbachov if he believed there was a cook now that they'd eaten. It then said, evolutionists would have people believe they evolved from nothing and called evolution a lie.

This argument is full of holes. The biggest one being the analogy itself. The cook is clearly discernable (you can see the cook, touch the cook, talk to the cook, etc). You can't do that with god. All you can do is read ancient texts alledging god's existence or look at symbols representing god. There is no "proof of god" and it's that simple. But that's what also makes the whole thing so controversial because those who believe don't want to acknowledge the fact because in doing so, they discount their own belief.

Scientists don't alledge we came from nothing. They've traced the development of life back through eons of time until they've reached the point where the details are so scattered and scarce, the trail goes cold. That's not nothing...that's the limit of our current ability to find out more. It's the same with looking out into space. The further we can see outwards, the more we find is yet to be seen.

For religion, it's a matter of believing what you choose...what makes you content with being alive. For science, it's a matter of finding out and putting the pieces together (which is not "belief" by any definition of the word). Science shows us there's more to life than we know and never stops looking further. But because it's findings conflict with what people want to believe doesn't make it wrong and certainly not a lie.

anthrosub



brightspot -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 11:11:40 AM)

Sometimes I really have a hard time with the fight about
religious creation and the theory of evolution.

Why can't they both be correct in the sense that maybe it
was a Higher Power, Great Spirit, God, Goddess, how ever
you look at it, perhaps, being of a very pacient nature began
the process with the "Big Bang" therefore the "Creator" of
Evolution?

*Brightspot



Lordandmaster -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 11:34:32 AM)

Because that answer doesn't satisfy the fundamentalists who want to discredit the theory of evolution in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

Why can't they both be correct in the sense that maybe it
was a Higher Power, Great Spirit, God, Goddess, how ever
you look at it, perhaps, being of a very pacient nature began
the process with the "Big Bang" therefore the "Creator" of
Evolution?




anthrosub -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 12:45:41 PM)

Well, that's more or less what I'm saying when I speak of the unknown. We know there's something beyond what we do know and by definition, we can never say...definitely...what that something is. But as Lordandmaster points out, the fundementalists can't accept this.

anthrosub



kisshou -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 1:37:47 PM)

What constitutes a definitive proof of a scientific theory?

How does that proof become a truth accepted by society?

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
For religion, it's a matter of believing what you choose...what makes you content with being alive.


Why have you not mentioned what a person is bought up believing? Try not believing something when you were taught your entire life it is the truth.....<knocks on wood> Even if the rational , scientific part of your mind tells you it is a superstition, this is one area where I beleive nurture wins out over nature. When people find themselves in great pain or fear they pray.



brightspot -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 1:51:11 PM)

quote:

Then there isn't a God watching us, and their aren't souls or anything else.


Who's to say "The Creator" is not still watching?
Or we Don't have souls, if you look at
this angle?

Who's to say really how time may Fly in a particular
Time Plane?

Brings to mind...., have you ever heard the phase,
"We All just may be involved and moving through someone
elses dream"?

Well I guess I like to stay opened minded, maybe a bit to
much for some of you souls[;)].

I also like to try to help some people see through the blinders,
and step outside their little speck in the Universe!


*Brightspot



perverseangelic -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 3:32:17 PM)

I think that many, many people who "don't believe" in evolution don't understand what evolution really is.



RiotGirl -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 3:39:38 PM)

Evolution and religion can co exsist

God DID create animals first right? So as the apes evolved.. who said he didnt decide to create roung that time? And i dont believe We were created in his image.. GOD is like a Force, a Spirit, energy.. God prolly used the ape to create us in an image off. (who are we anyways to think we're so special to be created in God's image anyways?)


God and evolution co exsist in my mind

but anyways... life is a lie. so there



darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 3:53:39 PM)

Hey - now who just knew I would respond to this post?...lol(hands up iffin ya want to be counted)

quote:

You can't do that with god. All you can do is read ancient texts alledging god's existence or look at symbols representing god. There is no "proof of god" and it's that simple. But that's what also makes the whole thing so controversial because those who believe don't want to acknowledge the fact because in doing so, they discount their own belief.


There is proof of God and it isn't just is some book. It's more than that - and it's something that you won't understand because you are not willing to be open to it - I am not being harsh or meaning to be nasty - but your judgemnet has already shown that you are not open to anything other than science - and that is great for you - but you really don't have to discount everything just because you don't believe - anothers belief is no less than yours and no more just because you cannot'see' the answer according to them. It's rather condecending to do so. And who says those who believe don't wish to acknowledge the fact? I can see the prrof - I hear it. Doesn't make it any less or discountable - that sounds as though you just wish to close the door on those and ignore from exisitance that which does not sit right with yourself - very fundemental.

You are being that which you are speaking out against.

quote:

Scientists don't alledge we came from nothing.


Nor does God.

quote:

They've traced the development of life back through eons of time until they've reached the point where the details are so scattered and scarce, the trail goes cold. That's not nothing...that's the limit of our current ability to find out more. It's the same with looking out into space. The further we can see outwards, the more we find is yet to be seen.


Yup - sure it - and I am looking forward to that time...


quote:

For religion, it's a matter of believing what you choose...what makes you content with being alive.


Another generalisation - you are taking words and placing them into a context that doesn't exist for EVERYONE. For many, contentment cannot come from religion, yet they still have faith.

quote:

For science, it's a matter of finding out and putting the pieces together (which is not "belief" by any definition of the word).


It is as much a belief as beliving in a god or God or Gods or goddess or whatever spirituality you follow.

quote:

Science shows us there's more to life than we know and never stops looking further.


So do religions

quote:

But because it's findings conflict with what people want to believe doesn't make it wrong and certainly not a lie.


Generalisation 101 - you cannot group all religious people into some comfortable little cell, just because it is right for you. I am a christian, yet I believe in evolution - it doesn't conflict with my belief at all - it is just part of the never ending journey which allows and helps me to explore deeper and further than I could without information.

I can sense you anger at such an advert and even comprehend it - but to attack all spiritual peoples and accuse them of being closed minded when you are being so as well, is a contridiction - and to just dismiss them as unable to back up their theories is refusing to allow their science.

What you have given, however, is a very clear and concise example of fundementalism.

Peace and Love



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 4:39:09 PM)

Not being a christian or a monotheist, I tend to be a minority view of things, however, creationism and evolution are not necessarily paradoxical.



anthrosub -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 6:31:40 PM)

quote:

There is proof of God and it isn't just is some book. It's more than that - and it's something that you won't understand because you are not willing to be open to it - I am not being harsh or meaning to be nasty - but your judgemnet has already shown that you are not open to anything other than science - and that is great for you - but you really don't have to discount everything just because you don't believe - anothers belief is no less than yours and no more just because you cannot'see' the answer according to them. It's rather condecending to do so. And who says those who believe don't wish to acknowledge the fact? I can see the prrof - I hear it. Doesn't make it any less or discountable - that sounds as though you just wish to close the door on those and ignore from exisitance that which does not sit right with yourself - very fundemental.

You are being that which you are speaking out against.


I fully welcome your thoughts and I'm not taking anything you say as harsh or nasty. I want to make that clear up front. I welcome the objections and wish very much to pursue this dialog. But please don't say in one sentence that I "...don't believe -" and then say that "...anothers belief is no less than (mine)"...that doesn't make any sense. I hold to no beliefs in the sense that I don't wish to put something between me and the direct experience of my life. I'm sure being a Christian, you know this is what Jesus meant when he condemned idolatry.

Believe it or not, I'm actually very spiritual...just not according to any established belief systems subscribed to by others. Science doesn't have all the answers and true science never claims to be the truth (that's why you always read or hear the word "theory"). Science looks at something and determines as accurately as it can...what, when, where, why, and how it happened. I find this more credible than simply saying things are just so because god made it that way. Science also leaves the book open because scientists have learned from experience that as new information becomes availabe, the theory will change.

quote:

It (science) is as much a belief as believing in a god or God or Gods or goddess or whatever spirituality you follow.


I'm sorry but that's incorrect. Again, science is theory based on collected information. I think it's valuable to bring up an example that demonstrates what I mean by the differences between science and religion.

"There is absolutely no proof that the sun will rise tomorrow."

People take the sun rising as a given. Yet neither science or religion can in any way guarantee you will see it tomorrow. All the information science has is based on what's already happened, which has nothing to do with tomorrow. The best science can do is say, "Based on observations, it's highly probable the sun will rise tomorrow." If it rises, then another observed event is recorded and adds weight of the theory.

Religion on the other hand says, "Have faith in god that the sun will rise tomorrow." If it does, does that prove that god exists? How do you know? Did your faith or belief make the sun rise? How can you tell? You feel something inside you and you call that god speaking to you. How do you know it's not just a feeling people can have anyway? If you're talking about the voice in your head, we all have those but I doubt that's what you're referring to.

I'm not attacking religion or anybody who follows it. I'm simply pointing something out that's a trait in human nature. People want to believe there's a meaning and purpose for their existence and all that they go through in life is for a reason. That's where religion comes from and the purpose it serves. People aren't content with..."I don't know." There's no malice intended in pointing that out.

quote:

Why have you not mentioned what a person is bought up believing? Try not believing something when you were taught your entire life it is the truth.....<knocks on wood>


Excellent point. I shudder when I see how in some parts of the world, the only teaching given to children is someone's interpretation of a particular religion. I've seen recent documentaries of children in Pakistan and Afghanistan having no book but the Quran to read and they aren't free to discuss what it means...they are told. Likewise, here in the United States there are private schools in the midwest that teach a creationist version of what life is. For example, that the world is really only a little over 5000 years old!

I started this tread talking about creationists attacking science and pointed out the inherent differences between the two. In the process, I've stepped on some toes and apologize. It's all out there for anyone to see and just like the people we all are, we will look at some things and ignore others for a host of reasons. If people want religion in their life, they will find a way to make it fit. There's nothing wrong with that so long as they don't go killing each other over who's version is right.

Finally, I want to describe something that may explain my motivation. If anyone reading this knows what a "ven" diagram is, they will understand what I mean. Think of each religion (and science) as a circle. Some of the circles overlap each other while some do not. To the extent they overlap, they are in agreement. My view of the world is a circle that surrounds them all but in trying to explain this I'm seen as dismissing them because I refuse to accept any one of them as the "truth" and for the record, I have explained that science does not purport any truth, only theory. If this is fundementalism, then I don't know the meaning of the word.

anthrosub



knees2you -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 7:05:48 PM)

quote:

quote:

Then there isn't a God watching us, and their aren't souls or anything else.



Hmmm~


"What disturbing roadblocks are researchers discovering in attempting
to prove Evolutionary Orgins?"

Speculative scenarios about life beginning spontaneously in Earths early oceans are "constantly being refuted, and then replaced by new ones,
which in turn get shot down."

Where did life come from? Is evolution really the best Scientific answer?
Could life have begun through chance and natural chemistry.
Would it have stopped the whole Creation/Evolution debate?

Can Evolution be the source of life in all it's complexity?
Answer: The more Science reveals about lifes Complexity,
the more doubtful it appears thatt life originated without intelligent help.

Look at this Theory~ Abiogenesis: The Theory that life can arise
spontaneously from non~life molecules under proper conditions.

Why is Abiogenesis impossible?
A Scientist examines Evolutions Claim that life originated
spontaneously.
The problems with this Theory are so serious that most Scientists
tend to shun the whole subject.

A Watch even implies a Creator. Thus a watch maker.

"I used to believe that God was causing all this pain and suffering on this planet? If not, why didn't He come and stop it? But then I realized it was Man, not God causing all this suffering. God told us enough times, if we still don't listen, Hmmmm...
Even if he did come people would believe other wise.

Why fight it??

Sincerely, Ant








Lordandmaster -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 7:11:24 PM)

Oh God, not another theism/atheism debate.



ScooterTrash -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 7:52:44 PM)

Interesting thread. It is quite unlikely that evolution is a lie, as evolution on a smaller scale, as in some animals and insects, happens at such an accelerated rate that we (well, those who study such things) have actually witnessed it. I don't know if the "fact" that there is the existence of some form of evolution discounts all spiritual concepts of creation, but it does bring out the thought that there has to be some sort of compromise for creation to be plausible, so as another poster seemed to elate to, perhaps it's a blend. I have to believe (there's that word) that in this day and age where so much data is at our fingertips, that everyone has the resources to determine their own conclusion. As the OP pointed out, science is based on likelihood of something occurring (or having occurred) based on the collected data. Similarly the spiritual concepts are based on the likelihood based on word of mouth that was later written down, then compiled even later and put into print. It depends on what you want to place your trust in as to what conclusion you determine is correct, if either of them. I have my own thoughts, but that doesn't mean I am going to decide that everyone else is wrong. In the end, it's likely we will all cease to function (die), so whatever makes a person feel whole and content while they are alive, is just fine by me, even if I don't understand why they feel that way. However it happened, it seems (in theory anyway..lol) that we are all alive.



knees2you -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 9:00:58 PM)

quote:

"What disturbing roadblocks are researchers discovering in attempting
to prove Evolutionary Orgins?"

Speculative scenarios about life beginning spontaneously in Earths early oceans are "constantly being refuted, and then replaced by new ones,
which in turn get shot down."

Where did life come from? Is evolution really the best Scientific answer?
Could life have begun through chance and natural chemistry.
Would it have stopped the whole Creation/Evolution debate?

Can Evolution be the source of life in all it's complexity?
Answer: The more Science reveals about lifes Complexity,
the more doubtful it appears thatt life originated without intelligent help.

Look at this Theory~ Abiogenesis: The Theory that life can arise
spontaneously from non~life molecules under proper conditions.

Why is Abiogenesis impossible?
A Scientist examines Evolutions Claim that life originated
spontaneously.
The problems with this Theory are so serious that most Scientists
tend to shun the whole subject.

A Watch even implies a Creator. Thus a watch maker.

"I used to believe that God was causing all this pain and suffering on this planet? If not, why didn't He come and stop it? But then I realized it was Man, not God causing all this suffering. God told us enough times, if we still don't listen, Hmmmm...
Even if he did come people would believe other wise.

Why fight it??


I was just showing things about Evolution and How Scientists
can't find a Definate answer to Our Orgin,
but how they keep fooling themselves by trying.

Sincerely, Ant [;)]



imtempting -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 9:46:22 PM)

Well I belive in Evolution as God has not showed me that he exsists.

Plenty of people will disagree and put up opposing points of view but if you expect me to see your view and change my line of thought why can you not change your view and change your way of thought and belive what I belive?

It will not be done as most people have been bought up to belive one way or the other.




anthrosub -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 9:57:45 PM)

Scooter,
Thanks for your words. You've said things that if you don't mind me saying so, helps complete the picture I started.

anthrosub



anthrosub -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 10:27:08 PM)

I appreciate your input but evolution and the origin of life are not the same theory. One is used to discredit the other. Evolution has been witnessed in life that procreates very rapidly.

Evolution in life takes a pace that's a function of that species life cycle. Just because you can't see it in some life, doesn't mean it's not happening. No scientists are "fooling" themselves by trying to understand evolution. Likewise, as to the theory of the origin of life, not one scientist has stated they know the answer. At best, it's a theory subject to change and they know it.

anthrosub



darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 11:06:48 PM)

quote:

I hold to no beliefs in the sense that I don't wish to put something between me and the direct experience of my life. I'm sure being a Christian, you know this is what Jesus meant when he condemned idolatry.


But it is still a belief - even if you think there is no such thing unless it can be proved in black and white - that is still a belief - that is your belief. And it makes it no less as important as my belief - but we would just disagree (possibly) - just because we (generic) may share different beliefs, doesn't mean I have to disregard your opinion, claim it foolish or accuse you (again generic) of being weak, powerless or lacking in the ability to hold up your belief or theory. Even a belief is based a therory - again - a matter of semantics - I have a therory on on God and His existance, and that is my belief - Just as someone may have a theory only on evolution and that is their belief.

quote:

Believe it or not, I'm actually very spiritual...just not according to any established belief systems subscribed to by others. Science doesn't have all the answers and true science never claims to be the truth (that's why you always read or hear the word "theory"). Science looks at something and determines as accurately as it can...what, when, where, why, and how it happened


And You, by this statement I am surmising that you believe that all religious peoples are subscribing to facts gained vicariously from others. And that is just wrong. People suscribe to any religion for any amount of reasons, some of which, are because they have studied, learnt and been told by God - as difficult as that is for you to comprehend. Not everything is just from one book. In fact, what you have said about religious believers can be said for scientific followerers. Not all are learned, factual based - some people place their belief solely upon a book - a theory - which leads to an existance of a particular scientific belief.

quote:

I find this more credible than simply saying things are just so because god made it that way. Science also leaves the book open because scientists have learned from experience that as new information becomes availabe, the theory will change.


But not every religion says that. You are taking religion and generalizing it. You can't just take a book and read it and say - hey, that must be true - you take a book, examine it - combine it with others and come to a concluesion. Yes, God says it's so - but there are a miriad of other resources you can delve into to discover if its the theory you can believe in.

quote:

I'm sorry but that's incorrect. Again, science is theory based on collected information. I think it's valuable to bring up an example that demonstrates what I mean by the differences between science and religion.


Science may be that - but theory leads to belief - and religions are no different. Just because you cannot accept the theory of chrisitanity or hinduism, doesn't mean it isn't a theory, it just means you don't believe in it.

quote:

"There is absolutely no proof that the sun will rise tomorrow."

People take the sun rising as a given. Yet neither science or religion can in any way guarantee you will see it tomorrow. All the information science has is based on what's already happened, which has nothing to do with tomorrow. The best science can do is say, "Based on observations, it's highly probable the sun will rise tomorrow." If it rises, then another observed event is recorded and adds weight of the theory.

Religion on the other hand says, "Have faith in god that the sun will rise tomorrow." If it does, does that prove that god exists? How do you know? Did your faith or belief make the sun rise? How can you tell? You feel something inside you and you call that god speaking to you. How do you know it's not just a feeling people can have anyway? If you're talking about the voice in your head, we all have those but I doubt that's what you're referring to.


Again, you are taking something as solid and generalizing. Not all chrisitans(using them as that is the belief system you have used) would say that - and you are placing your perception onto the page, not the reality of what happens. As a christian I wouldn't ever say 'I have faith in God that the sun will rise tomorrow' - because I would have all the information before me - not just of God, but of science - and science may tell me that its not going to. But I would have faith that there is a reason behind the whole occurence because I have a theory upon it - but then, even science would have a reason and even some sciences have faith in that reason - but not all - based upon some theory.

quote:

I'm not attacking religion or anybody who follows it. I'm simply pointing something out that's a trait in human nature. People want to believe there's a meaning and purpose for their existence and all that they go through in life is for a reason. That's where religion comes from and the purpose it serves. People aren't content with..."I don't know." There's no malice intended in pointing that out.


Again, a generalisation that all people need a purpose - a meaning - but not all do. Some people believe that , we live, we die. What happens in between has no relevance other than that our life exists and evolves in some 80 - 90 or more years and then we die, get mouldy and just go into the earth. For some people, religion serves a purpose, but there are also some people who are content with the 'i don't know'... but are still a follower of a religion - and equally their are others who 'do know' whether they are religious followerers or science followers - and just because you cannot understand that, doesn't mean its wrong or doesn't exist. You may have and show no malice towards these people - but you are showing fundemental generalisation.

quote:

I started this tread talking about creationists attacking science and pointed out the inherent differences between the two. In the process, I've stepped on some toes and apologize. It's all out there for anyone to see and just like the people we all are, we will look at some things and ignore others for a host of reasons. If people want religion in their life, they will find a way to make it fit. There's nothing wrong with that so long as they don't go killing each other over who's version is right.


Treading on toes? No - but doing the exact same thing as you have felt attacked by, just in reverse - yes. If people want religion in their life, some will make it fit, for others, it just does. Same as science - there are those who will make it fit in and for others, it just does. But for the wiseest - they will take both - and embrace and be thankful for the chance to make that choice.

The one thing we do agree on is that we hope that people stop killing, both in the name of religions and in the name of science - because it happens on both counts. If a man is going to kill, at least let the man be honest about the way, and not hide behind either science nor religion.

quote:

My view of the world is a circle that surrounds them all but in trying to explain this I'm seen as dismissing them because I refuse to accept any one of them as the "truth" and for the record, I have explained that science does not purport any truth, only theory. If this is fundementalism, then I don't know the meaning of the word.


I have not seen anyone accusing you of not accepting any one of them as truth. Truth hasn't even been covered. I have seen generalisation, and I don't wish that to sound as though I am attacking, but you have to be open minded and realise that not all religions are the same and that people are individuals and unique and that each person comes to a belief differently and via many types of theories. Your explaination of the difference between science and religion is that you see that theory and belief are not compatable - but the reality is that all science and religion are a belief based on a theory. Belief is a mental act and acceptance of something based on consideration and examination - and theory offers that consideration - the two are entwined.

Fundamentalism is the adherence to a theory - no matter what - closing oneself off and judging on the basis of a set idea or an unproven thought. And generalisation of any peoples brings the worst of fundamentalism - and it is that which creates wars - religion and science are just the excuses of fundamental hatred and non acceptance.

Peace and Love



Ssilver -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 11:16:41 PM)

quote:

Even a belief is based a therory - again - a matter of semantics - I have a therory on on God and His existance, and that is my belief - Just as someone may have a theory only on evolution and that is their belief.[/center][/font][/size]



Except the one theory has a body of empirical evidence pointing to it, and makes predictions that can be validated, and gets revised when the evidence doesn't fit it, and the other one does no such thing.

I'll leave it to the reader to figure out which theory is which.



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