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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 4:35:41 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I say quite and aye to the above posts by Aswad.
 
As for the appellation Allah, its etymological origin is vague. It is my impression, though, that it originally refered to the god El, not to the gods of the jews (and christians and muslims; though the muslims originally were meant to worship El).

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 5:51:25 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
      I've looked for those on T-shirts.  Can't seem to find them.  My favorite was of Mohammed yelling over the edge of a cloud in Paradise, "Stop!  We're running out of virgins!"


Reminds me of something I heard once - Islamic Martyrs think they are going to Paradise, but it's really Hell. Sure they get 100 virgins, but along with them come 100 mother-in-laws.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 5:58:58 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's funny. Most Muslims refer to the Eternel as 'God', not as Allah. So that Catholic Bishop in Amsterdam was either: 1. completely ignorant or 2. deliberately creating a controversy... or 3. he's an imbecile.


Allah means G*d... or, rather, "the god".

It is not a name, it is an appellation.



Quite... and the Muslims I know, when they speak of their Eternel, refer to her/him/it as 'God', not as Allah. They don't say: "I believe in Allah.". They say: "I believe in God.".

We agree! Bingo, Aswad! I'll get the rounds in: I know they're horribly expensive in Norway.

Tchin tchin!

_____________________________



(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 6:40:19 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

As for the appellation Allah, its etymological origin is vague. It is my impression, though, that it originally refered to the god El, not to the gods of the jews (and christians and muslims; though the muslims originally were meant to worship El).


El is the Phoenician form.
Eloh is the Hebrew form (see Elohim).
Ilah is the Arabic form (hence, al-ilah, which becomes allah).
These all derive from the Proto-Semitic "il" or "ilah", and like that form, they all mean "god".

And the Muslims, like the Christians and the Jews, all worship I-be-that-I-be, YHWH.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 6:45:50 PM   
Aswad


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Status: offline 		kittinSol,

Some Muslims say "I believe in Allah".
Just like some Christians say "I believe in Jehova".
I've never met anyone who said either and had a clue what it meant.
If they say "اؤمن بال" or "I believe in G*d", however, that's a different matter.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 7:59:23 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

If someone actually believes in "God", they should truly devote every moment to "Him".


Why should I do that?

If you created life, whether a couple of people on an already inhabited planet, or a full universe, would you really want them to spend all their time on you, who they can basically offer nothing other than entertainment, rather than living their entertaining lives? For that matter, do we know anything about the nature of G*d, motives, or desires?


According to the religions I'm referring to?  Yeah, they'd say that they know of his desires are- for purposes of their considerations, at any rate.  Of course, this God junk is just superstition, so they don't actually know what a nonexistent entity desires, but they believe they do, and I'm talking about from their point of view.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:


It should be the core of their life- as immorality in bliss would be the greatest prize of all.


Well, for some of us, spiritual pursuits are at the core of our being, but not something that occupies our every waking moment. Immortality in bliss, however, would be a curse, not a prize; where's the fun in that?


If immortality was the prize at the end of the tunnel?  Yeah, I'd spend a thousand years doing whatever such a God would instruct, even if it meant unfilled desires.  I'd have a thousand years to make it up to myself after that.  Another thousand, after that.  And then another thousand, for kicks.  And another thousand, to get the worst hang over anyone could ever imagine, then another thousand, to explore the inside of some star.  You know, fun stuff.  ;)

Seriously, though, forever in Heaven would be worth following the tired religious tenants.  If God existed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:


They should save as many "souls" as possible and adhere to the teachings of their religion as flawlessly as possible.


How do you save a soul?


Wouldn't say so, but it'd depend how you defined it.  Something super natural?  No.  That bit of the chemical reactions in one's skull that form a self-referential system?  Sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

And how do you adhere flawlessly to a moving target?


Super glue.  (I actually said "as possible".  If you can't do it any better, than better simply isn't possible.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:


They're also good examples of how disruptive such superstitious beliefs can be.


I guess my superstitious beliefs have disrupted your life a whole lot.
But mine is generally disrupted by fanaticism, not mere belief.
Whether superstitious or not; the former has disrupted less.
Our government's fanatic beliefs are atheist in nature.


"can be", my friend.  Those that go out and crusade for their religion- that are willing to fight for it, as their various Gods, dieties, spirits, etc. supposedly command- they truly believe.  And they're the most disruptive.

If you have your beliefs, and they cause no one harm, cool.  My post was talking about the mainstream religions of Christanity and Islam and such.  Any superstition that doesn't require its adherants to go out and do silly things- rather, has some passive belief (like if one were to believe a giant, etheral monkey watched everything that they did) that in no way effected their actions in the practical sense, who cares?  (Besides the others who believe a giant, etheral monkey is watching them.)

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 9:10:11 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

According to the religions I'm referring to?  Yeah, they'd say that they know of his desires are- for purposes of their considerations, at any rate.


Sure. But you said "If someone actually believes in G*d". Nowhere did you mention organized religions. I consider myself to "actually believe in G*d", but that leaves as many questions as anyone else has, if not more. That is the only rational conclusion when one chooses to believe in something, I think. Baring a burning bush in the middle of the highway that other people spot and the road crews can't manage to pull away, of course.

quote:


Of course, this God junk is just superstition, so they don't actually know what a nonexistent entity desires, but they believe they do, and I'm talking about from their point of view.


Considering the possibility that we may be nothing more than a science project in Simulated Universes 101, and that such a model accurately predicts the entirety of known science while positing the unfalsifiable hypothesis that there is something outside our known reality, I think it is rather irrational / superstitious to assert that G*d does not exist. Personally, I prefer a rational / scientific approach, sorting things into "has been shown false by testing", "has not been shown false by testing" and "unkown at this time".

I'm fine with people not believing. Hell, it'd make life so much simpler if I didn't consider the possibility.

But it seems hypocritical to believe in the invalidity of belief.

quote:


Another thousand, after that.


And so on, not just ad infinitum, but ad nauseam. You would either find yourself in a state of bliss- which is just incomprehensible to me, something I would never want for an extended period of time, as it would put a decided end to the journey, in many ways as bad as the atheist notion of death- or you would find yourself terminally bored to the point of begging for death.

quote:


Super glue.  (I actually said "as possible".  If you can't do it any better, than better simply isn't possible.)


Point being, there's very little solid ground for anything past speculation, and it would seem odd for me to enforce my speculations on others, wouldn't it? I mean, I accept the notion that I may be wrong in my beliefs, and I wouldn't want to be responsible for fucking things up for someone else by pushing my potentially erroneous beliefs on them. However, I'm happy to share them if people ask.

quote:


My post was talking about the mainstream religions of Christanity and Islam and such.


Many organizations are harmful.

Organized religion is no different, except it exploits a weakness in zealots.

Do not confuse the organizations with the faiths.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 9:44:39 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		How's about we convert all muslims to Christianity instead?
I like that idea better.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/16/2007 10:17:43 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You have to laugh at these sort of threads that get believers in a knicker twist as they uncover the spite and vitriol of their beliefs and their god.

It is more ridiculous than my paradoxical thought. Thank god I'm an atheist.


That's the ticket. Believe in nothing. Kind of why your continent is so screwed up and being taken over by fanatics once again.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 12:45:36 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Of course, this God junk is just superstition, so they don't actually know what a nonexistent entity desires, but they believe they do, and I'm talking about from their point of view.
The ancient Egyptians who interacted with the incarnated gods well knew the motive of the Creator: He created the gods (including himself) and men in order not to be alone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Yeah, I'd spend a thousand years doing whatever such a God would instruct, even if it meant unfilled desires.
One thousand years only? Miser. Unfortunate. How about eternity?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Seriously, though, forever in Heaven would be worth following the tired religious tenants.  If God existed.
The gods, who are incarnate within our universe, do exist. As does the Divine that is outside our universe, as Aswad said; and as I have said before in other threads.
Heaven? Few attain Heaven. Most are reincarnated with a clean slate - even the gods themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Wouldn't say so, but it'd depend how you defined it.  Something super natural?  No.  That bit of the chemical reactions in one's skull that form a self-referential system?  Sure.
The soul is one of the three parts of the mind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Super glue.
Machines lacking free will. When one is surrounded by machines, one is still alone. This was not the purpose of Creation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Those that go out and crusade for their religion- that are willing to fight for it, as their various Gods, dieties, spirits, etc. supposedly command- they truly believe.  And they're the most disruptive.
They often are victims who have been misled or corrupted by those who are evil.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Any superstition that doesn't require its adherants to go out and do silly things- rather, has some passive belief (like if one were to believe a giant, etheral monkey watched everything that they did) that in no way effected their actions in the practical sense, who cares?  (Besides the others who believe a giant, etheral monkey is watching them.)

That is a rather good description of the Divine that is outside our universe: giant, ethereal, watching.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/17/2007 1:37:05 AM >

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 1:37:49 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

As for the appellation Allah, its etymological origin is vague. It is my impression, though, that it originally refered to the god El, not to the gods of the jews (and christians and muslims; though the muslims originally were meant to worship El).


El is the Phoenician form.
Eloh is the Hebrew form (see Elohim).
Ilah is the Arabic form (hence, al-ilah, which becomes allah).
These all derive from the Proto-Semitic "il" or "ilah", and like that form, they all mean "god".



And the English form of course, is Ellen

Now, fear my wrath! Oh, go on ..... fear it?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 1:49:56 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
And the English form of course, is Ellen

Actually Ellen refers to / is (one of) the name of the wife of the god El.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 2:06:39 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
And the English form of course, is Ellen

Actually Ellen refers to / is (one of) the name of the wife of the god El.


The power behind the throne eh?

Well, this is the 21st century so he'd best get used to who's in charge round here these days. Unless he wants a spanking. But then, he's gonna get one anyway.

E 

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 2:32:11 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You have to laugh at these sort of threads that get believers in a knicker twist as they uncover the spite and vitriol of their beliefs and their god.

It is more ridiculous than my paradoxical thought. Thank god I'm an atheist.


That's the ticket. Believe in nothing. Kind of why your continent is so screwed up and being taken over by fanatics once again.


Which continent do you mean ?  Which fanatics do you mean ? surely not those religious ones who believe in something ?


(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 2:51:50 AM   
InnocentYoungSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

You know...

As I think more of this...

Wouldn't we be better off if all women wore burkas as not to offend Islamics

Wouldn't we be better off if we killed all homosexuals and women who have sex with anyone except the husband chosen for her by her parents as not to offend Islamics?

Wouldn't we be better to remove the clitoris from all women, lest they enjoy sex and thus offend Islamics.

Wouldn't we be better off not educating women past the 6th grade as to not offend Islamics

Wouldn't we be better off by limiting free speech that would otherwise offend Islamics?

Ya know... the whole world and all of its people would be better off submitting to the will of allah come to think of it. Isn't that actually the text book definition for Islam, submission to allah? Doen't Islam mean literally mean submission in Arabic? 

Yes yes... to ensure peace we should all convert Islam!

Except for Jews and Blacks who according to Islam are inferrior. They can't really convert can they? They will have to be put to death in the new Islamic world.




What a bunch of bigoted drivel. Female circumcision is not religiously mandated by Islam. Educating women is certainly not forbidden by Islam. Learn the difference between cultural practices in these Muslim nations and what is actually part of the religion. We've got plenty of backwoods idiots in the West who interpret the Bible in ways that are draconian and bigoted. We are dealing with socioeconomic and political problems in the Muslim world that are being played out through religions. However religion has been around a long time before terrorism, its just a vehicle for discontent.

And there are no such people as "Islamics", there are "Islamic people" or "Muslims".

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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 3:43:36 AM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


And the English form of course, is Ellen

Now, fear my wrath! Oh, go on ..... fear it?

E


Well, Ellen akbar! Good luck with your new responsibilities, and, if a mere mortal may offer advice, only smite heretics if they seem to be absolutely sincere in their blasphemies. The others could just be topping from below.

To get back to the original issue, I imagine Muslims would just be mildly baffled if Christians in the West started to substitute "Allah" for "God" (and Gott, Dieu, etc.). They might be a little unhappy, though, when the Nietzscheans began proclaiming that Allah was dead and the atheists replied that Allah had never existed in the first place. I don't think they'd find cries of "Allah damn it!" very amusing either.

But I've always thought it was strange that "God" is used in English essentially as a proper noun. I think of gods as a category of imaginary being, rather like demons, unicorns, and pixies. It seems a bit presumptuous of English-speaking Christians to around calling their god God, as if he were the only conceivable god out there.

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RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 5:00:57 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Forgive them: they do not know what they do.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 7:30:38 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

How's about we convert all muslims to Christianity instead? I like that idea better.


How about you convert to Islam instead? I'll bring the popcorn.
Joking aside, how about just leaving people to believe whatever they want to believe?
I don't fancy the idea of a homogenization of beliefs in the world, you see.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 7:32:30 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And the English form of course, is Ellen


Or just "a god".

quote:


Now, fear my wrath! Oh, go on ..... fear it?


~quivers~

Highly convincing, I hope?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Bishop: "call God 'Allah" to ease tensions - 8/17/2007 7:40:19 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

The others could just be topping from below.


I was wondering when someone would pick up on that one.

quote:


But I've always thought it was strange that "God" is used in English essentially as a proper noun.


Yeah, just like "Allah" is being viewed as a proper noun, when it's really just a class noun with a definite article.

quote:


It seems a bit presumptuous of English-speaking Christians to around calling their god God, as if he were the only conceivable god out there.


S/He isn't the only conceivable god out there, hence retaining the lower-case form.
But they generally only worship that one, though some add Jesus, Mary, angels, etc...

That said, you think it less presumptuous to baptize that god as Pete or James?
Seems more viable to just capitalize the class noun, since the name is lost.
(It'd be like calling you Whaledrake; doubt you'd appreciate it.)


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Wheldrake)
Profile   Post #: 80
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