RE: Cheaters!

RE: Cheaters! (Full Version)

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LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Cheaters! (8/16/2007 10:43:08 PM)
whats the point if you do not honor them.. just like the sand they seem to blow away

adoracat -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 6:13:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 whats the point if you do not honor them.. just like the sand they seem to blow away that is the point. if you know what you want in the marriage, and write your own vows.....you arent going to include things that you would break. example: wolf and i never promised fidelity. we promised to honor each other (we do) and love each other (we do) and support each other through life (we do). another thing is that marriages, like BDSM contracts, can be re-negotiated. what if you find a a hard limit you didnt know you had? then you talk to the person you're with and re-negotiate. same thing in marriage. you bring up the subject, you and your spouse discuss and hopefully come to an agreement. kitten, who both speaks AND listens...

CreativeDominant -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 7:28:20 AM)
~grins~...being a car guy, I can appreciate the irony and humor here. The usual disclaimer about my opinion...I am one of those who thinks a husband or boyfriend is relevant. Weird, I know but I like to know whether or not she is open about that fact. Even weirder? I like to know whether or not they are aware of her meeting up with Me. I have a strange aversion to being confronted in a coffee shop or restaurant or worse yet, coming out of said place and being assaulted without warning. Strange...I know.

Jeffff -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 7:36:09 AM)
I think the key here is the car. BMW?, German engineering?. Very regimented., not particularly pliable. Sounds like a recipe for disaster! Jeff

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 10:41:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Emperor1956 To you, the committment of marriage is JUST LIKE the committment of leasing a luxury car: You keep the object for 24 months or 30,000 miles, ride it hard and sell it for 40% of retail after two years! I got it now. I don't know how you managed to leap to that completely unfounded conclusion. But if it simplifies your world to categorize, invent, and dismiss me on the basis of your own fabrications, by all means, don't let truth or reality slow you down. What's true for me is that my relationships are complex, rich, and widely varied. In some cases they are highly committed, but monogamy is still not involved nor are other people necessarily. My relationships are mine to manage and up to me and my relationship partner how we chose to go about that. That some people seem to insist on projecting their values of how my relationships "should" be really doesn't affect me or my relationships much at all.

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 10:52:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: themischievous1 I can see how it's convenient not to realize a responsibility in letting people know one's marital status, or whether or not one is involved and comitted elsewhere. I'm just not sure it's responsible, ethical, or a perception laced with any kind of integrity to feel no need to bother one way or the other; but it is because of this very attitude that due dilligence is wise for those of us who care who their play partners are. My point is that for most play, commitment elsewhere simply isn't relevant. It's no more relevant than knowing how you've invested your life savings. It's a part of your life that I haven't yet been invited to share. Chastising you because you haven't volunteered that information over coffee just seems to me like someone's looking for an excuse to dismiss. quote: Some people perceive all of wiitwd as casual, just like a casual meaningless vanilla one night stand, and others perceive sexual intimacy or touch as something reserved for a special few within certain parameters. It isn't a good idea to assume that anyone is on the same page as yourself unless you've taken the time to really know and discover that they are for yourself. Fortunately I'm one who wants to know who they're touching and know said person well. I'm just funny like that. This is an awfully black and white perspective on relationships and sex. There's a tremendous amount of gray area in between these two extremes. I'd venture to suggest that the vast majority of people, connections, scenes, and relationships fall somewhere in between these two poles. I generally do know a little more about someone before I play. But I don't always. Sometimes I get to know them through play, or through tantra exercises, or whatever. Conversations, for instance. I can't have a conversation with someone without knowing them. But how do you get to know them without having a conversation?

BitaTruble -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 10:53:04 AM)
I think you walk a very fine line with consent if you don't think disclosing a wife or girlfriend is relevant to someone with whom you are flirting or playing. If the disclosure would cause them not to flirt or play with you then such is very relevant. Celeste

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 10:55:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub Too simplistic and lack of relevance too convenient of an excuse, to the withholding of information..Tempting Ok, but by what mechanism to you intend to convey the message that this information, which seems completely irrelevant to me, is of such vital importance to you? I'm not withholding information if you haven't asked. You seem to have some expectation that people will volunteer random information, but you don't seem to suggest any means by which anyone is to know what random information you want. That seems to me like a setup for failure.

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:01:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord If someone has, say, a wife- in a, as far as she knows, monogomous relationship- and the husband cheats on her- of course others should care. The husband has demonstrated a willingness to lie to someone he married. Not only is this act morally reprehensible, but it also leaves in question the validity of any socially-contracted interaction with such an individual. This is to say, he's not above manipulation and deceit. Why should I care? I don't, in general, care whether he sleeps on the left or the right side of the bed. Why should I care about any other detail of how he manages his relationships? I have a pretty high value for personal responsibility and for self determination. If he wants to cheat on his wife, I say that's his business. Not mine. It's not my responsibility to police his relationships. Maybe that's part of the difference here. You seem to be thinking that marriage is a social contract and that it means the same thing to everyone who enters into it. Whereas I'm thinking that marriage is an (inter)personal commitment between people whose meaning can really only be known by those people.

TheKernel -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:03:45 AM)
I am not asking for the colour of someones pussy before i know them[sm=hewah.gif]

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:08:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 whats the point if you do not honor them.. just like the sand they seem to blow away I think maybe you have this backwards. The point of a strong commitment is to state what you are going to do and then to do what you have said you are going to do, (or to renegotiate if you cannot). The idea isn't so much to prove your integrity as it is to give the other person some idea of what to expect of you. Making commitments to do things that aren't healthy doesn't really help anyone. So instead, many people specifically make only the commitments they want to make, only the commitments they can keep, are healthy for them to do so, etc. It is possible to make highly committed relationships without requiring monogamy. I know a number of monogamous couples, for instance, who use more than one banking institution. Just because they have fidelity in one area of their lives doesn't necessarily mandate mono-fidelity in other areas.

windchymes -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:10:23 AM)
I'm with CD, there are certain things that should be brought up automatically, and, IMO, one of those things is the fact that there is a significant other in the picture. Since it's widely known and accepted that many people have a strong aversion to consorting with someone who has a spouse or long-term partner, then common courtesy and sense just dictate that it should be brought out into the open in the early stages of getting to know someone. Omitting the fact because the other person simply didn't ask is just a lame excuse. Perhaps they didn't ask because they somehow got the impression that there was not a significant other, so they didn't think they needed to ask? If someone gave you a sexually transmitted disease and you didn't ask them ahead of time, you know you'd be mad as hell because they didn't tell you up front. What would your reaction be if you contracted herpes, asked them why they didn't tell you they had it and they replied, you never asked me? Would you absolve them of any responsibility?

instynctive -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:11:47 AM)
I'm too embarassed about My truck to admit what it is (or which one it is)... So I lie to everyone.. "No, I walk everywhere." LOL

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:16:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble I think you walk a very fine line with consent if you don't think disclosing a wife or girlfriend is relevant to someone with whom you are flirting or playing. If the disclosure would cause them not to flirt or play with you then such is very relevant. Of course, the same could be said about family medical histories, past relationships, current political affiliations, military involvement, nationality, etc. Interactions still have to start somewhere. If some feature of someone is important to me, I ask. For instance, I don't much care where someone lives if we're both at a party and I'm considering flogging them. But somewhere between a first scene and considering the possibility of an ongoing dating relationship, I'm likely to ask where they live. How far away they live from me matters to me much sooner than how many other people they play with or date. If you need to know the color of their cat, or whether they drive a BMW before you'll feel safe with them at any particular activity, like conversation or flirting, then you should ask. There's really no way anyone can guess that these things are important to you. If they are, then you need to say so. It makes no sense to attack someone for not volunteering what seems to them like otherwise completely irrelevant information.

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:17:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 are there not things in the vows of the wedding that say forsake all others and also to death do you part. if words have no meaning what the hell is everyone doing on here lol just a point.. I suppose that depends on the sort of wedding and the type of marriage you chose. I've certainly heard wedding vows that did not include those words. As I understand it, for instance, Mormon marriage doesn't end at death.

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:22:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant ~grins~...being a car guy, I can appreciate the irony and humor here. The usual disclaimer about my opinion...I am one of those who thinks a husband or boyfriend is relevant. Weird, I know but I like to know whether or not she is open about that fact. Even weirder? I like to know whether or not they are aware of her meeting up with Me. I have a strange aversion to being confronted in a coffee shop or restaurant or worse yet, coming out of said place and being assaulted without warning. Strange...I know. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care. Everyone decides their own risk/reward level. If you think that there might be a risk involved that you're not up for, then I think that's a completely valid choice on your part. My point is that if you need to know this information, then you need to ask.

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 11:33:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes I'm with CD, there are certain things that should be brought up automatically, and, IMO, one of those things is the fact that there is a significant other in the picture. But again I say, there's no way for someone to know that about you until you tell them. If this is your boundary, your limit, your means of creating safety for yourself, then you need to be responsible for it. Expecting someone else to just know and to maintain that boundary for you without ever even discussing it with them seems foolish to me. quote: If someone gave you a sexually transmitted disease and you didn't ask them ahead of time, you know you'd be mad as hell because they didn't tell you up front. What would your reaction be if you contracted herpes, asked them why they didn't tell you they had it and they replied, you never asked me? Would you absolve them of any responsibility? First off, no, I would not be mad as hell. My choices around safer sex were made a long time ago. I revisit them periodically, but they haven't changed much in over 15 years. My choices do not depend on anyone else volunteering information, being truthful, or being all knowing about their status. I'm sure that I've played with people who are HIV positive, some I knew about at the time, some I probably didn't know about. I've likely also played with people who have Hep-C. I'm sure I've played with people who have herpes, both strains, and no, I don't particularly care whether they tell me they have it. It's not relevant. My choices are made on my own, apart from my partner, and they are based on the level of risk that I am willing to accept in my life. I can protect myself and I do. I'm not always risk free. I chose my risks carefully and I do, often, chose some risks. I've played with hundreds of people and I haven't had any particular disease problem from it. I'm exposed to more diseases and worse diseases when I ride the bus.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 12:21:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: teamnoir quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant ~grins~...being a car guy, I can appreciate the irony and humor here. The usual disclaimer about my opinion...I am one of those who thinks a husband or boyfriend is relevant. Weird, I know but I like to know whether or not she is open about that fact. Even weirder? I like to know whether or not they are aware of her meeting up with Me. I have a strange aversion to being confronted in a coffee shop or restaurant or worse yet, coming out of said place and being assaulted without warning. Strange...I know. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care. Everyone decides their own risk/reward level. If you think that there might be a risk involved that you're not up for, then I think that's a completely valid choice on your part. My point is that if you need to know this information, then you need to ask. And you have a right to feel that way. I would imagine though that you have run into more people that think the information IS relevant and SHOULD be offered up by you than those who agree with your stance. I would also imagine that there have been more who have been angry when they have found out AFTER the fact than those who have been O.K. with it after the fact. You have a right to view such information as irrelevant. But, as has been noted, for most people it is relevant. Is it on us to ask each and every potential partner we speak with whether they are involved elsewhere? Maybe...but is it possible that we might get a response such as "I don't see how that is relevant"? And then, if we choose to see that response as a clouding or a "Yes" , would we then get the argument that "I did not say whether I was involved or not...I just said it is irrelevant"? At some point, people have to take responsibility for giving out information that is considered relevant by many. I don't happen to think that people need to know my entire life story but for many of the things I choose to be involved in, that is exactly what I need to give them or do without their services. MOO...this speaks to me in a manner similar to those people that say the words they use are not relevant, they are just words when I get offended over being told "whatever" by my ums or when I hear my youngest refer to her best friend as "her bitch" or when my ex failed to tell me that she had contracted an STD and her reason for not telling me was that it "had been cleared up at least 6 months ago".

teamnoir -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 12:45:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant And you have a right to feel that way. I would imagine though that you have run into more people that think the information IS relevant and SHOULD be offered up by you than those who agree with your stance. I would also imagine that there have been more who have been angry when they have found out AFTER the fact than those who have been O.K. with it after the fact. Actually, the answer on both of those imaginings is "no". quote: You have a right to view such information as irrelevant. But, as has been noted, for most people it is relevant. I don't think your count is accurate and I don't believe that you speak for "most people". quote: Is it on us to ask each and every potential partner we speak with whether they are involved elsewhere? Maybe...but is it possible that we might get a response such as "I don't see how that is relevant"? And then, if we choose to see that response as a clouding or a "Yes" , would we then get the argument that "I did not say whether I was involved or not...I just said it is irrelevant"? At some point, people have to take responsibility for giving out information that is considered relevant by many. I don't happen to think that people need to know my entire life story but for many of the things I choose to be involved in, that is exactly what I need to give them or do without their services. If you ask me whether I'm married, and I respond with "how is that relevant", then either you can explain how it seems relevant to you, or you can decide that you're not up for playing with me. I suppose you could also repeat the question if you preferred but if I was willing to redirect the first time, personally, I'm likely to redirect the second time as well. However, I've played with literally hundreds of people and I've never once been asked if I was married before we played - even by people who claim that this information is vitally important to them. I have on rare occasions been asked, "Is there anyone with whom I need to check in or ask permission before I play with you?" And my answer has always been "no". quote: MOO...this speaks to me in a manner similar to those people that say the words they use are not relevant, they are just words when I get offended over being told "whatever" by my ums or when I hear my youngest refer to her best friend as "her bitch" or when my ex failed to tell me that she had contracted an STD and her reason for not telling me was that it "had been cleared up at least 6 months ago". I'm not seeing the similarity here. In one case, we're talking about whether you ask for information that is apparently crucial to your decision making process. In the other cases, well, I'm not seeing any pattern to these other cases other than that these people seem to be failing to live up to your (presumably unstated) expectations of them. I seem to be hearing you express frustration that other people can't read your mind. And while I grant that might be convenient at times, I don't think it's a realistic expectation to place on other people in general.

TheKernel -> RE: Cheaters! (8/17/2007 1:09:20 PM)
Its a difficult subject. There are quite a few things I would like to be told or should be told but I wouldnt necessarily expect it to be volunteered. Its not exactly easy i would think to list off your history either. Things I can think of: In a relationship/married has children any mental illness any criminal convictions. are they disease free. It is a two way street though and how many tims hand on heart have we listed all of those off even if the answer is good for all of them.

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