RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations?

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/17/2007 7:59:24 PM

becca333

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The way to check the theory is to look at other cultures, and study history.

Throughout history, and in every culture, there are people who are gay. Sometimes, like Sparta, it's actually compulsory, sometimes it's hidden and shameful. But it's always there.

Throughout history there are people who are 'stronger characters' - often with features we now consider Dommish, and more yielding people, who we could see as subs. Those character traits don't always express the way we show them, and some societies value certain personality types, and certain gender behaviour, more than others. But that's why studying history is so much fun. (You also have to be careful not to read what you want to see into the study.) So... maybe we can see our own kinks through history? Or maybe not.

Personally, I'm big on contiunua. I think sexuality is a continuum, some people are strongly hetero (most people, for survival of the species), some strongly homo, and quite a lot are spread along the line - that's why some people CAN change their orientation at those lovely religious 'cure the gay' camps, and some simply can't. Life experiences can also reinforce one aspect of a person's orientation, especially if they're not far down one end or the other.

Perhaps the way we express our sexuality is on another continuum - vanilla one end, the lucky ones like us at the other, and a whole lot of people along the line between who dabble in light naughty fun. And different cultures express the wildness in a variety of ways.

Wow, I'm philosophical today.

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/17/2007 8:57:21 PM

Padriag

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Susan, you asked an very complex question and I'm not sure I can provide a satisfactory answer within the space of these forums. Particularly not while sitting in a motel room out of town and absent some of my research notes and resources.

However, here's an attempt to at least comment on it and the general direction.

Firstly, based primarily on my own research, I would say that neither D/s orientations nor sexual orientations are directly triggered by genetics. There is no "gay" gene nor a "dominant" gene or a "submissive" gene.

Secondly, environment does play an extensive role in the development and expression of these orientations. Because of our self-awareness, we are both much more affected by social/environmental conditions as well as being able to alter our behavior or learn new behaviors through choice.

But, and this is where it begins to get complicated, genetics do play an indirect role in the development of our orientations and behaviors through alterations in our perceptions. These alterations don't guarantee an outcome, but they do make it more or less probable. Think of it this way, a person might be born color blind... that makes it less likely they'd become a painter or photographer (due to a specific genetic variation, for simplicity's sake)... but it doesn't guarantee it, there are artists and photographers who are color blind. That single genetic variation made it more difficult for them but through choice and social/environmental conditions they overcame that difficulty and did the unlikely. These are exceptions to the rule however, and they are always in a minority (unless there are overwhelming social/environmental conditions which strongly influence the outcome otherwise).

Simply put, all human behavior is learned behavior, including sexual orientation (a statement many will disagree with, including some current researchers, but I have good reason for saying they are wrong), etc. These behaviors are not fixed, they can be altered. Thus any individuall is potentially heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, etc. Genetics doesn't directly control this, but through many factors (literally hundreds if not thousands) may make a particular orientation(s) more likely to occur. These genetic factors include variations in our senses, our hormones, or emotional responses, and many other factors. Many people simply go with what feels "natural" to them, but what is natural is in reality nothing more than what that combination of genetic factors and social/environmental influences have directed them towards and they followed "the path of least resistance". Unless this is strongly challenged, that's who they will be. In some cases individuals face a conflict between the genetic factors and the social/environmental influences which can cause a painful crisis of identity (i.e. a hermaphrodite, or someone geneticly influenced (or biased we might say) towards being homosexual but raised in a very conservative environment). Some very rare individuals discover and embrace their ability to choose and are then able (with effort) to overcome both those genetic factors and/or the social/environmental influences... i.e. the color blind photographer.

I hope I explained that well enough for it to be understood. It is a very complex subject and my own theory is exactly that, my own. I did quite a bit of research on it some years ago as behavior is a topic of much interest to me. In particular I was interested in the concept of instincts, defining what they actually were, and the implications of that. In the course of that research I stumbled into my present theory on the origins of behavior after doing research into the complex, multi-generational, behaviors of the monarch butterfly (which initially was intended to be my proof of instinct, but ended up going in a very different direction... one of these days I really ought to get around to publishing that paper). I'll try to clarify points of interests if asked and as I have time.

Needless to say, the above is my opinion based on my own study, YMMV (and for many almost certainly will).

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/18/2007 12:03:52 AM

becca333

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There's growing evidence that, at least in some cases, sexual orientation is linked to certain genes. And the presence or absence of certain hormones while the embryo is developing is definitely a factor for some people's sexual orientation.

Some studies have linked sexual orientation to position in family - there's a slightly higher probability of homosexuality depending on position in family and gender of other children.

It's quite likely that for some people sexual orientation is genetic, or congenital, and for others it's influenced by life experiences. Possibly programming could be nature OR nurture, depending on circumstances. We just don't know enough yet, and study is often discouraged because there's a feeling that some people might want to 'cure' certain orientations if we could find the cause for them.

Now, if we can't agree on that despite all the studies and the public nature of the research, what hope do we have of deciding for sure about BDSM, since it's often hidden, we can't even agree on terms or definitions...

But it's always fun to wonder about it!

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/18/2007 12:37:54 AM

SusanofO

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I appreciate all of the replies. Seems like there are truly some deep thinkers on these boards.

Padriag: I think Ray Charles could be good examples of someone who relished in his ability to choose to overcome genetics and-or environmental factors. I know it's not an example driectly realted to D/s or BDSM, but I saw that movie: Ray - and it was awesome (what awesome character he had. It almost seemed like destiny or something, the odds were so much against him, right from the start). In fact, I hate to skew the entire discussion, but I agree that there sometimes seem to be so many hundreds of factors at play, that I sometimes think destiny (God?) does play a role. Of course ,there isn't any way to prove that (at all, really) so people please just carry on with the discussion. It is an interesting one, IMO.

becca: Yes, I have read about pre-natal hormones heavily influencing a person's sexual orientation (straight or gay).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/18/2007 1:00:43 AM >

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/18/2007 3:14:35 AM

subroutine

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It is as much a part of me as being straight and goes back as far as I can remember.

Its not so likely to happen now as there is so much of it in the media now and the internet but I know I am not alone with people from my generation who had the "oh my god i thought i was the only one" syndrome. I honestly thought i was totally effed up till i realised that there were a lot more like me/

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/18/2007 4:50:34 AM

MadameMarque

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I am not inclined to suspect that BDSM inclinations are inborn.

For one thing, though I have always had "different" feelings about what I find romantic and what excites me, since before adolescence, I know many people who were not, originally, so oriented, and who, now, are living the life and the love and the sex, full out.

However, I do believe there are inborn physiological traits that would make a person more predisposed to go that way, according to other "nurture" factors, including, possibly, past life influences.

(I realize not everyone recognizes that latter factor, of past life influence, as a phenomenon, and I don't believe that I've seen it addressed before, in relationship to the question of either inborn traits or BDSM orientation. I don't think of these as "inborn traits," but influences that a person may experience in this life, along with present life influences. I tend to think that my extremely early, strong tendencies were, in part, due to past life influences, carried over to this life.)

- A person's brain profile, such as their capacity for impulse control, their need for intense stimulation;

- their chemistry, including any predisposition to anxiety, a higher or lower production of chemicals and hormones that are triggered by any stress or by pain, by fight or flight situations;

- their nervous system;

- their sensitivity to physical stimulation and to pain;

- their hormonal levels, leading, for one thing, to

- a possible tendency to eroticize any form of excitement or stimulation (including physical or psychological stress and pain, aggression, emotional responses, etc), and secondly,

- to a possible tendency toward resorting to survival responses - that is, forming heirarchies of power, aggressing, submitting

- All these physical traits (for which I don't have the proper medical terms), and others I don't know enough to list...can surely create the predisposition toward any number of activities involving intensity, high stimulus, heightened interaction, and intense intimacy, of which, BDSM orientation is one.

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/18/2007 4:27:32 PM

treelistener

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quote:

Do you consider having inclinations toward BDSM activity, and more importantly being Dominant or submissive (or being a Switch) as inhernet an orientation as being heterosexual or homosexual (or bisexual)?

I don't know about other people, but for me I think my BDSM orientation is more inherent than my sexual orientation. It's certainly more stable. I've always been a masochist and probably have always been submissive (just took longer to discover that). But when I first became sexually active, I was a straight woman. Later, I was lesbian. Now, I'm a transman attracted to all genders. At this point, it's a whole lot more important to me that my partner be a dominant and a sadist than be a particular gender. I had a mistress once who said her sexual orientation was SM.

Just hangin' out at the ends of the bell curve again.

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/18/2007 5:21:07 PM

ExSteelAgain

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Susan, you’ve said in the past that you think you may be a switch. So do you think a switch orientation is inherent, too? That is why I wouldn’t apply a D/s orientation to a gay-straight point of reference.

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/19/2007 4:31:16 PM

GreyGore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
you consider being submissive to be more of a personality orientation than a sexual orientation (correct me if I am wrong in concluding this in your reply).

I know the two are "connected" and all of that

There are plenty enough replies about the topic at hand that I don't feel it necessary to add to that part of the discussion. I did however want to respond to this statement: I disagree strongly with it.

Personality wise I believe I would probably be considered somewhat submissive. I'm introverted, quiet, I prefer to listen from the corner than be the center of attention. I don't seize leadership or control of groups, I prefer to allow someone else to accept responsibility unless I know I'm the most qualified (or if everyone is more timid than myself).

But relationship-wise I'm very dominant. I prefer things done my way, to my satisfaction. I hate not being able to make the final decisions. I like being generous and giving, but I get more satisfaction out of receiving service than I do giving it. Essentially I don't display a dominant personality, but prefer to retreat to an environment where I am comfortable being the dominant one.

My slave on the other hand is quite the opposite: she's very assertive and aggressive, she takes the initiative on group projects and often assumes leadership unless she has a reason to defer to others. She's bossy, extroverted and tends to get what she wants in negotiations (with others anyway). As her mother said when she saw her wearing a leash (as part of a halloween "costume" *coughs*): "I always thought you'd be on the other end".

I've also seen this dynamic in other D/s relationships, so I know it's not unique to us. For that reason I've taken to being very explicit to separate out dominant/submissive personalities from dominant/submissive roles in the relationship.

Gregory

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RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straigh... - 8/19/2007 7:29:48 PM

SusanofO

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ExSteel: Good question. I credit coming into my orientation as a Switch to simply finding myself in the BDSM world. I actually think it's partly inherent, and partly due to exposure to more of the BDSM world, and all of its possibilities, so, no - actually, I don't think it is as strong biological a drive as someone's gay or straight orientation (but I do think it has a biological component to it, probably).

But I truly believe the jury is really still out on this question - which is one reason asked it. Everyone's answer is okay with me - because I really think science hasn't made any definitive decision on this one yet.

But even a bi-sexual might tell you that they maybe didn't discover how much they loved females (or males) until they slept with one in their late 30's (or maybe even older) - or whatever. So I do think it still is possible to simply not relaize one's true orientation until later in life, maybe partly due to experiences one has had.

I am still partly submissive (but also a Domme). And the "split", if you will is actually really about 50-50. Half the time, I find I want to be a Domme, the other half, I truly want to be a submissive, and feel submssive. It's not 90-10, or 80-20 - it's genuinely about 50-50.

Hope that answers your question.

GreyGore (and everyone else) -I appreciate everyone's replies, very much.Thanks people.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/19/2007 7:34:05 PM >

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