RE: Spelling and online... (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 6:37:18 AM)

if this was a businesss coorespondence post- i sure would take the time for proper gramar.
i have multiple injuries- one is bi lateral carpal tunnel. i admit- that i am lazy/slothfull.

IMO the luaguage is evolving into grunts and soundbites.

i dont do chat rooms as they are shallow.   the message board format works for me.

thanks to everyone who puts up with me.   sometimes my posts are hard to digest- and it is not my intention to hurt anyone.
those that have been around awhile can read me fairly well- as i lay all my cards on the table.

:-)
roger




sexyred1 -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 6:46:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Trust me, there're much better things to be learning out there than memorizing spelling.


Actually, I disagree.


WTF? You are actually saying here that there are no better things to spend time on than spelling.

No, of course there are many things that are as equally important to spend time on, but your communicative ability is so important since it is how you present yourself to the world.  Spelling is just one way of doing that.

Either that, or your linguistics need a touch-up at a quite different level than spelling.

No, my linguistic aptitude is above average, thanks.

quote:


Communication via writing is a lost art in our society.


Seems we're all communicating quite well here, despite the occasional spelling and grammar errors.

Communicating quite well HERE? I was discussing the macro, not the micro.

As for art, not every artist prefers the same medium.

True, but I also used "lost art" because writing was more valued before the instant and immediate gratification of online happened. People used to actually write letters to each other. Now, it is easier to just IM someone to keep in touch If you have received a genuine love letter on stationary, it is more meaningful (to me at least), than someone who cut and pastes a bouquet of flowers, for example. Somehow, it is not the same thing and took less effort. Effort is key.

quote:


I see horrendous spelling and grammatical errors in business correspondence on a daily basis. It is often the first impression you get when trying to conduct business or meeting a potential someone.


In business, that is quite frequently because people are being lax, in my experience.

Absolutely, but I still stand my opinion that it makes them look bad and influences a decision to do business with them.  It is also glaringly obvious in a business communication when there are misspellings. It is forgiven more so in personal.

Which is, obviously, quite different from an honest mistake, dyslexia or non-nativity.

Well, of course, I am not discussing people who have communication or spelling issues due to those reasons, I am talking about most people where English is their first language.

quote:


I am not too fond of internet spelling either, U R 4, etc. is just lazy.


That's not a spelling error, but an argot.
And I detest it with quite a passion.
Not that I usually comment on it.

Well ,I felt like commenting on it since it is ancillary to the spelling and online discussion.





FullCircle -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 7:04:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

IMO the luaguage is evolving into grunts and soundbites.



It also has wheels on now so you can pull it behind you on the way to the airport.




kittinSol -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 7:43:36 AM)

If you hadly speak a word of French, how would you know whether it's any more, or less complicated than English :-) ?

Yes, English spelling is irregular and unphonetic, but there's no connexion between spelling and grammar (with the exception of the apostrophe - "Who's coming for dinner?" and "Whose bag is this?"). Dictation in French, on the other hand, involves a constant grammatical analysis.

I'm not sure why you think English tenses are complicated: they're pretty easy to me. Ever looked at the subjunctive imperfect? Now that's absurdly difficult [:o]!




adoracat -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 8:11:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I’m not saying one language is better than the other and I think the widespread use of English has more to do with historic reasons rather than anything else. The point I was making in all this is that these languages are all derived from Latin. Some have been controlled whilst others have been added to and changed radically. If we all follow the rules no new words came about because we reject them as being wrong. Am I to say to an American that Jewellery isn’t spelt Jewelry, colour isn’t spelt color, centre isn’t spelt center and programme isn’t spelt program. At some point changes occurred and we must accept that changes will occur again.  


an american dictionary printer is the cause of those spelling differences.

he didnt wish to take the time to have extra type set (in the days of the hand-set type).

kitten, who generally doesnt capitalize, but does try to spell correctly.




BruisedHick -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 8:28:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
I'm not sure why you think English tenses are complicated: they're pretty easy to me. Ever looked at the subjunctive imperfect? Now that's absurdly difficult [:o]!


It seems to me that English is your first language.  If that is the case, then of course it is an easy language.  You never really had to learn in comparison to another language, you learned a few words at a time, however your parants spoke it, then developped from there.

Je
Tu
Il/Ell
Nous
Vous
Ils/Elles

There are basic verbs (e, es, e, ons, ez, ent), which are most of them.  Some of the most commonly used ones, such as etre, are irregular, and a bit more complicated.  Then there are a few (Mrs Vandertramp) that are put in the past tense using avoir (j'ai, tu as, il a, elle a, nous avons, vous avez, ils ont, elles ont; see a pattern?) and a few more tenses that you need to learn.

Each letter has basically one way to pronounce it, unlike english, where a letter, and combination of letters, can be pronounced many ways (gh, for example).

Rules are followed, and, with the exception of a few complications, the majority of the french rules, including conjugation of almost all verbs, is found in a small booklet called ther Bescherelle.

That leaves 100 000 words to be learned, and you're good to go.




kittinSol -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 8:40:52 AM)

Hilariously, English is my second language :-) Though I'm considered bilingual: it's the language of my mother. I was raised mostly in French, though.

PS: I did a Bac philo/français.




Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/19/2007 10:31:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Well, yeah. By extension, you could say that all languages have evolved from one place.


Possibly. That is a subject of debate. Anything resembling our modern ideas of language would be 50.000 years back or so. PIE is the oldest root language we have been able to reconstruct in the line that English is derived from. It's rather interesting to see how the cultural elements fit together, like similarities in religions across the different Indo-European cultures.

quote:


In terms of countries as we know them today, English is a hybrid of old French, old German etc.


Nods. And about half the words are derived from Latin.

quote:


In the area of England in which I was brought up, we still use old Norse words such as beck (meaning stream, as you'll know).


Yeah. That's actually a kind of funny thing. In Norway, some of the words exported by the Norsemen fell out of use and died, but still exist in English. For instance "bag", from "bagr". I'm always amused when "language purists" say we shouldn't say "bag", but use some kind of Norwegian equivalent instead, considering how that word originates here, while the equivalents are loan words. [:D]

Beck ("bekk"; same pronounciation, but different spelling) is only used in dialects, though.




Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/19/2007 10:35:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

It may just be me but I think this has come about because people are scared of having an opinion and so they phrase it in the form of a question, no?


Possibly. The pattern is used almost exclusively by women in Japanese, IIRC. It's a valid particle there, though. But I've also seen it used sarcastically, and over-assertively, so I'm not sure about this bit. Regardless of how it came about, it can still become more widely adopted, which would lead to a valid particle, and would free up the word order a bit more.




Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/19/2007 11:22:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

No, of course there are many things that are as equally important to spend time on, but your communicative ability is so important since it is how you present yourself to the world.  Spelling is just one way of doing that.


In all honesty, most people who care that much about spelling are people I couldn't care less about how I present myself to, with the notable exception of business contexts, where I cater to all prejudices I can uncover in the interest of getting their money, of course. (That being the job description, after all: making money.)

Learning how to cook a great meal has brought me far more joy than my usually passable spelling.

quote:


No, my linguistic aptitude is above average, thanks.


You quite clearly said "I disagree" to an assertion that there are better things to learn than spelling. Either you meant that there are no better things to learn than spelling, or you failed to communicate. Clearly, spelling is important to you. But I would expect that you gained more from learning how to walk, how to pen down what you have spelled in your head, how to love, and so forth.

quote:


Communicating quite well HERE? I was discussing the macro, not the micro.


Pardon me, I got the impression we were discussing spelling on CM.

quote:


True, but I also used "lost art" because writing was more valued before the instant and immediate gratification of online happened. People used to actually write letters to each other. Now, it is easier to just IM someone to keep in touch If you have received a genuine love letter on stationary, it is more meaningful (to me at least), than someone who cut and pastes a bouquet of flowers, for example. Somehow, it is not the same thing and took less effort. Effort is key.


Lots of things were valued. Some of them rightly so, others not so much. Valuing spelling is a formalism, really, a social ritual. Proper spelling, beyond the level where the text is intelligible (i.e. where the text has served the purpose of communicating), is just icing on the cake. It's a memory game used for exclusion, and doesn't add anything. If people have problems with it, I'd prefer if they spend that extra effort on something more meaningful, like the content of what they are saying.

And I have received letters, including love letters. The time would be better spent on a romantic dinner. Besides, don't underestimate the value of the spontaniety of instantaneous communication. Letters may have some value, sure, but they don't enable such extensive social interactions as are possible via a forum. For that matter, you would be unable to decipher any letter I wrote, given my handwriting.

quote:


Absolutely, but I still stand my opinion that it makes them look bad and influences a decision to do business with them.  It is also glaringly obvious in a business communication when there are misspellings. It is forgiven more so in personal.


I'd say it depends on the scale of the business involved. If it's a small company, they may not have a proof reader, and I'd give the benefit of the doubt. If it's a large company, then they don't care about presentability, and I would rely on whether they have a reputation for being equally lax in other areas. Lockheed-Martin could write me a letter with not a single word spelled correctly, and I'd not hold it against them. Firestone could not expect the same.

quote:


Well, of course, I am not discussing people who have communication or spelling issues due to those reasons, I am talking about most people where English is their first language.


English isn't most people's first language.
Chinese, specifically Mandarin, is.

quote:


Well, I felt like commenting on it since it is ancillary to the spelling and online discussion.


Not really. It's an argot that may eventually become part of the English language.
One presumes scholars disliked the slow migration from "egoH" to "I".
The same will be the case if "you" ("yus") eventually becomes "U".
It is jarring to me, but the "4" etc. are the ones I object to.




Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/19/2007 11:34:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If you hadly speak a word of French, how would you know whether it's any more, or less complicated than English :-) ?


I used to be fluent in French. The reason I hardly speak a word is disuse.

quote:


Yes, English spelling is irregular and unphonetic, but there's no connexion between spelling and grammar (with the exception of the apostrophe - "Who's coming for dinner?" and "Whose bag is this?"). Dictation in French, on the other hand, involves a constant grammatical analysis.


~nods~

But it's more regular, and the spelling is fairly regular and phonetic.

quote:


I'm not sure why you think English tenses are complicated: they're pretty easy to me. Ever looked at the subjunctive imperfect? Now that's absurdly difficult [:o]!


The tenses in English are complicated for a large percentage of non-native speakers.
Subjunctive imperfect isn't absurdly difficult, really.




SuspendedInGaffa -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/19/2007 4:15:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

i know this will probably be pulled by the MODs, but i thought i would try it anyway.

i know alot of us (myself included) are hit by the typo-bug [...]


Ahem!

(*Frantically proofreads all his previous posts*)




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