No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (Full Version)

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TopinPa -> No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 1:02:18 PM)

This is meant in the context of a Master/slave relationship

Since a safe word can’t be used during punishment, which it would obviously defeat the purpose; do you choose to let your slave safe word while you’re disciplining them? If so, what’s the difference? I know there is a fine line between punishment and discipline and this varies for different Masters.



SmokingGun82 -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 1:30:27 PM)

This is something that's going to be different for everyone, and you're probably going to get a lot of replies that say exactly that.

Personally, I don't really draw a line between discipline/punishment, they're synonyms to me. With that said, I also view punishment as something that's not enjoyable... possibly not for either party. For example, caning would be fun, and enjoyable, but since I tend to gravitate towards self-described "pain sluts," who have almost uniformly loved caning, it's not really a punishment. Punishment is something like corner time, no affection, etcetera. So for me, a safe word for punishment/discipline (which is unlikely to be physical in nature) would be completely contradictory to the point.

But hey, that's just my opinion.



slaveluci -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 2:10:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TopinPa
do you choose to let your slave safe word while you’re disciplining them? If so, what’s the difference? I know there is a fine line between punishment and discipline and this varies for different Masters.

I try to never disobey so I never have to worry about either[;)].  However, I have mentioned before that (in the nearly 16 mos. I've been Master's slave), I did mess up pretty big one time by disobeying one of the very few specific rules He had in place.  I confessed and was "punished" but it was not physical (nothing hot or kinky, I'm afraid). 
Additional rules were put into place, privileges were restricted, assignments were made, etc.  I'm afraid a safeword (which I don't have anyway) wouldn't have pre-empted any of these things[8D]

As far as the difference between "punishment" and "discipline," we both believe there is a big one.  "Punishment" evokes images of being "paid back," so to speak, for the bad behavior.  "Discipline" seems to indicate correction.  "This is going to hurt me more that it hurts you" kinda thing done in the spirit of making sure the same bad behavior isn't repeated.  Just my view.............luci



PAcpllooking -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 2:15:10 PM)

Well for me there is always a safe word no matter what. The thing is that if she is using it as a way of getting out of being punished then she will be punished 10 times worse.
If you know the person you are with then you know when a safe word is being used for real or as a way out of something

William



SmokingGun82 -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 2:26:45 PM)

Not having a safeword for punishment, to me, just reinforces it as a "special" (for lack of a better word) situation.

I do have to ask... just as a matter of curiousity... what if she safewords out of the punishment for safewording out?

(Yeah, I know at that point ending the relationship would make more since... I just found it amusing.)



proudsub -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 2:29:04 PM)

quote:

Since a safe word can’t be used during punishment,


Why not? If it's not consensual it's abuse in my book.



PAcpllooking -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 2:38:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

Not having a safeword for punishment, to me, just reinforces it as a "special" (for lack of a better word) situation.

I do have to ask... just as a matter of curiousity... what if she safewords out of the punishment for safewording out?

(Yeah, I know at that point ending the relationship would make more since... I just found it amusing.)




LOL Ok I think you mean that she would safe out just to get out of punishment?
Well the way I look at safe words is that if she is in distress, or something is going on in her head that really making her freak or something physical or medical is going wrong then she safes out.
Now if she safes out for any other reason, then she is really going to get it.

William



MzMia -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 2:44:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

This is something that's going to be different for everyone, and you're probably going to get a lot of replies that say exactly that.

Personally, I don't really draw a line between discipline/punishment, they're synonyms to me. With that said, I also view punishment as something that's not enjoyable... possibly not for either party. For example, caning would be fun, and enjoyable, but since I tend to gravitate towards self-described "pain sluts," who have almost uniformly loved caning, it's not really a punishment. Punishment is something like corner time, no affection, etcetera. So for me, a safe word for punishment/discipline (which is unlikely to be physical in nature) would be completely contradictory to the point.

But hey, that's just my opinion.



I agree with SmokingGun.
Play is play and punishment is punishment.
Punishment is not play and punishment is not "fun".
 
It is normally going to be a task or a chore or something that you would NOT need a safe word to do.
The best punishment is actually to ignore the person. {no affection, no "fun times", corner time, time out, etc.}
Punishment is not "fun or play", you will not need a safe word {it won't be that physical in nature}, and it is something you will not like.
 



mmb1 -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 2:48:07 PM)

I have heard all opinions about safe words...............do i believe they are necessary?? For some........absolutely!!!! For me.....I personally think that if you do not have that "connection" or trust, you do not need a safe word.  I would hope that the One I am with will know me well enough by my eyes etc to be my "safety".  (smiles)  I do believe in the beginning, it may be a good idea to have some sort of signal however, maybe hand signals etc. I just do not like the concept of the safe word myself. 



PAcpllooking -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 3:33:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmb1

I have heard all opinions about safe words...............do i believe they are necessary?? For some........absolutely!!!! For me.....I personally think that if you do not have that "connection" or trust, you do not need a safe word.  I would hope that the One I am with will know me well enough by my eyes etc to be my "safety".  (smiles)  I do believe in the beginning, it may be a good idea to have some sort of signal however, maybe hand signals etc. I just do not like the concept of the safe word myself. 


I can appreciate your feelings on safe words but let me relate a true occurance..

I had my slave of 7 years on her hand and knees, on a bed when the phone rang. I was talking on the phone for about 5 minutes.( in the same room and she wasnt tied or anything) when I heard her whisper our safe word. I immeadately had her lay down. The reason she safed out was because her wrists where hurting her very badly.
So as is shown here even in a simple non threatening situation things can happen.

William



Carrianna -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 3:55:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TopinPa

This is meant in the context of a Master/slave relationship

Since a safe word can’t be used during punishment, which it would obviously defeat the purpose; do you choose to let your slave safe word while you’re disciplining them? If so, what’s the difference? I know there is a fine line between punishment and discipline and this varies for different Masters.

Punishment is not the same for every person, also the punishment would change depending on the crime (wink) but discipline is differnt, to me discipline is an understanding where they are able to connect with my ways and ideas, ok, not explaining very well...  But there you go...

Safe word, ohh yes always, unless gage is in place, then they might hold something to drop... 



TopinPa -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 4:08:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

Not having a safeword for punishment, to me, just reinforces it as a "special" (for lack of a better word) situation.

I do have to ask... just as a matter of curiousity... what if she safewords out of the punishment for safewording out?

(Yeah, I know at that point ending the relationship would make more since... I just found it amusing.)








That's why I said a safe word would defeat the purpose.
For example: a slave that wasn't used to or didn't like extreme pain might be ready to safe word out at the sight of a single tail or whatever just to not have to deal with the punishment



SmokingGun82 -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 6:22:01 PM)

TopinPa,

I know- I was replying to PAcpl's statement about safewording leading to more severe punishment... and my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek. Sorry for any confusion.



mrzip035 -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 6:35:44 PM)

We humans are falable.  A safe word or some form of a safety release is necessary...period.  Consensual....Sane...punishment/discipline.   I always want my partner to know she is agreeing to what is happening at all times.  If she safes out then we discuss it...... later......and act accordingly. 



sweetnurseBBW -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 6:39:22 PM)

We don't use physical punishment for discipline because I would enjoy it. We use others forms for discipline which is rare since I don't like to be in trouble. So physical punishment doesn't work for everyone.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/18/2007 10:00:10 PM)

OOoh, we have not had this discussion in quite a long time, I am quite impressed.  Kudos.

Reposted:
It depends on why you use safewords.

If you use it as I do to mean "somethings wrong, we need to fix it NOW" then there's no reason a safeword shouldn't be used anytime anywhere.

If you use it to mean "I'm really not liking this or thinking its going too far" then perhaps a safeword is unnecessary during a punishment when the point is NOT to like what's going on.

I personally find that unless it's a role playing scene, just SAYING what's wrong rather than safewording leads to more complete and open communication.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_97589/mpage_1/key_safeword%252Cpunishment/tm.htm#97662
safewording during a punishment
http://www.collarchat.com/m_600704/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#600756
forgetting the safeword

http://www.collarchat.com/m_563513/mpage_2/key_safeword/tm.htm#563814
Safeword usage over time

http://www.collarchat.com/m_355604/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#355604
Safewords are NOT for novices!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_232414/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#232414
safewords?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_228130/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#228130
safeword

http://www.collarchat.com/m_137937/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#137937
Forcing your sub to safeword?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131432/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#131432
Safe words

http://www.collarchat.com/m_93603/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#93603
Overuse of a safeword?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_69981/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#69981
safewords not allowed?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_14335/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#14335
should a slave in training be allowed safewords?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_668940/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#669011
The use of safewords

http://www.collarchat.com/m_679370/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#679401
safe words:  To use or not to use



Focus50 -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/19/2007 3:26:59 AM)

Since you'll probably get as many different answers as people who respond, I'm gonna go off at a slight tangent and simply give some personal thoughts on punishment and discipline.
 
I define the difference as being the mood an action of the girl has brought out in me.  If she's being playful, cheeky, bratty, inattentive etc to a point where I need it to stop, I'll discipline her in some way - usually the "stare" fixes most things, esp if I'm not in the mood to get more physical.  But I love to discipline, too, so overstepping her boundaries can also be a way for her to initate something that's equally enjoyable to both of us.  As within any formalised scene, she has a safeword she can use....
 
Punishment is very different.  If I decide she's done something worthy of being punished, it's because she's made me *angry*.  Rather than being a mode of initiating play, anger means I don't want her close to me at all and she'll be despatched to the corner where she can contemplate her actions while I also usilise the time to cool down.  She has no safeword simply because there is in no physical reason why she'd need one.  Assuming she does her time as I'd expect (and it being the ONLY way she can make things right again), all is forgiven and she starts with a clean slate and a hug to signify closeness again.
 
I love using the ropes, floggers and toys etc on my girl.  But I don't touch them at all if I'm angry, most esp if it's she whose made me that way.
 
Focus.



Daddysjezzy -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/19/2007 3:42:05 AM)

I have to be good to get pain so its not used as punishment.  Punishment is usually things like being ignored which really hurts or being denied orgasm which is bloody awful.  However the worst thing when being punished is that look of disappointment in your Dominants eyes.  Their disappointment is the worse punishment of all.



MadameMarque -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/19/2007 5:54:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TopinPa

This is meant in the context of a Master/slave relationship

Since a safe word can’t be used during punishment, which it would obviously defeat the purpose; do you choose to let your slave safe word while you’re disciplining them?
(clip)


If you think you may ignore the limits of your slave, just because you're punishing the slave, you are morally and criminally mistaken. 

If you or your slave misunderstand the use of a safeword - or any other signal the two of you use that conveys to you that there is now a problem that needs attention - then you should discuss it, and get clear - it is a distress signal.

When you say that their having a safeword, during punishment, would defeat the purpose - no, the purpose of punishment is not (had better not be) to violate the limits of the slave.  You don't want to know if your slave is in trouble, while you're punishing the slave?

In my experience and in witnessing the experience of others, it is much more common for a submissive or slave to fail to indicate, when there is a problem - This may be due to shame or pride or guilt or being in a state that makes them unable to articulate or simply unable to perceive the trouble they're in.
 
Your slave should not be made afraid or ashamed to signal, when there is a problem, and you are duty bound to take it seriously and respond to it.  

Whether that problem is physical, emotional, or mental; whether a developing problem needs to be assessed and dealt with, or you just need to pause and check in, or whether the slave is withdrawing consent, because they have struck an unexpected boundary or limit to their endurance and coping - in all these cases, the slave should let the owner know, and the owner must not fail to respond. 

(It is understood that signaling a real problem is not the same as, say, struggling or pleading, but from someone who is okay and consenting.  This is precisely the reason those who use a safeword, do so.)   






ProfJoe -> RE: No safe word for punishment; what about discipline? (8/19/2007 7:00:51 AM)

In my lexicon:

Discipline is for training ... it can extend from bootblacking technique to sensory reactions to a new toy that hasn't been experienced, from domestic training to protocol training. It has a functional purpose.

Punishment is to: correct an intentional/negligent error. So the kind and extent of punishment depends on the nature and severity of the error. It's not done when I'm emotional. It is creative to the extent that it fits the crime. Its objective is to be corrective -- i.e, to make it preferable from the bottom's pov to perform the "correct" action in the future.

You are correct -- no safewords during punishment. Of course I don't put her in danger during punishment; the purpose is to make her mistake so unpleasant or undesirable that she will choose a response I approve of in the future. It's not edge play, in my case.

Safewords are available during discipline, but they don't mean "I don't like this very much." They mean: "I can't handle this anymore," or "I am in danger of something you don't know about" (like a stabbing pain that seems unrelated to the activity), or "I need to explain what is happening to me and need you to stop long enough to tell you." I use "yellow" and "red" -- boring but they've worked.

I completely distinguish between punishment, discipline and a third category ... play. Play happens "on the edge" for us, be it mental or physical or psychological or whatever.

As the previous poster explains, none of this has anything to do with limits. Limits are to be respected, once agreed upon, until they are revised by both parties. And I don't say  that as a "personal opinion" but as a general rule. The rest of this is, of course, open for debate depending on your own definitions.

Hope this is useful to you.
(Prof.) Joe



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