RE: Eradicating women. (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 1:48:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

They are now projecting that there will be a detrimental lack of women in China and that Chinese men will have great difficulty finding a mate.


That's not a problem. That's a solution. China has a much too large population. For that matter, it may prompt future societal acceptance of polyandry, which would be a quite interesting turn of events for China. It might also make prostitution a very lucrative and much safer profession in the long run. In short, males become expendable, while women become precious.

Any problem inherent in this, whether in China or India, is self-solving. Eventually, a certain population will remain, and that population will cope. Intermediate generations will be able to sustain themselves, and not die of starvation or other such problems. The real issue, the way I see it, is that this should be achieved by developing and distributing a drug that ensures the foetus will be male (i.e. family planning), rather than by abortion.




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 1:52:51 PM)

Aswad: It would be interesting (to me) if China was to be "hanged by their own petard" (so to speak) by things taking that turn in their society, and it encouraged Polyandry and an increased use of female prostitutes.

I shudder at the idea of any sex being aborted simply because it is one sex or the other (but I see someone approving of abortion as a general method of birth control, sex selection aside, as different topic). I am not saying they won't necesarily end up doing it - just that the idea makes me shudder.

But, I think I maybe see where you are headed with this idea (if it's not self-solving) - if it is the idea of Patriarchy (or Matriarchy) that you are really debating. Or maybe you were just commenting that idea seems to be "in the cards" in the future of China (and maybe it is). Sex-selectiv abortion seems like a thing they would maybe think they need to institute- if they don't just attack another country and steal their women, for pro-creative reasons, or something. However, this latter option obviously leads to other complictions (besides perhaps a some who would be horrified at the idea, in their population -like creating new geographic enemies, which could be dangerous for them). 

**The idea they would need to do this -when the whole reason that they even have a 1 child policy is due to over-population to begin with - does strike me a slightly odd, though. I am sure they can find a way to justify it if they decide to do it, though. I also realize they need new generations of people, etc.

But, IMO, both Patriarchy and Matirachy are both wrong if they result in constricted human rights for one sex in favor of the other (which almost by definition, if we look at history, especially with the idea of Patriarchy - they almost always do) . And the idea either one is justified, simply due to "econonmics", earthquakes, hurricanes, poverty, etc. - is ludicrous (to me).

- Susan




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 2:18:00 PM)

well kittensol: Re: Mother Theresa...I will say this - If there is value in sufferring, then the females that have been forced to do things for centuries like throw themselves onto funeral pyres when their husbands died, or bankrupt their beloved families simply to have the (questionable) privilege of being allowed to marry in India, are perhaps candidates for sainthood.

But then again, so may be the men who walked into battle - and risked their lives, (or are currently doing that) to eradicate an real, bona-fide, life-threatening enemy - so that an entire population would not be wiped out by that enemy.

I am not so sure their isn't some (spitiual) value in suffering. A lot of people, seem to be doing it, in any case, in various situations. It is an interesting qauestion (to me).

I think if everyone got what they wanted all the time, they might well be pretty happy. Then again, maybe some people would turn into little spoiled tyrants. I am not sure. I have heard that saying that: "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely" -

But, I still don't think there is any doubt that there is some suffering that can be eradicated and which makes no logical sense.

I am all for helping to allevaiate that kind of sufferring (although I realize that for some, if not most, definining "that kind of suffering" is subjective, and a judgment call). Moreover though -for all  know, it is the spiritual obligation, (or test), for people who are in a position to help alleviate it to do just that.

- Susan




Sinergy -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 2:53:34 PM)

 
I am one of those people that think Mother Theresa spent her life following her ideals in alleviating suffering for the poor and downtrodden.

Sure, barbs could be thrown at her.  She probably screwed up or did things that made little (or no) sense.  Maybe she could have done something else that would ultimately have had a bigger impact on those she was trying to help.

But where the rubber meets the road, in my mind, is that she dedicated her life to an ideal that is bigger than she is.  I may not necessarily agree with her ideal, but I completely understand.  I do a job which could ultimately cause a stroke or other fearsome physical injury, is psychologically and spiritually draining, and does not really pay much of anything to be remotely worth it.  I do it because I have to do it.  I believe my doing it will make some world, either now or in some future, a better place for somebody else.  There could be other things I could do.  I have certainly had my share of detractors for doing it. 

But I do it because I know in my heart that it needs to be done.

I imagine if one asked Mother Theresa why she did what she did, her answer would be similar.  She was called to do it, and she stepped up and answered the call.

I think she deserves nothing but people's utmost respect.  It amazes me that there are people sitting on their computer trashing what she did, while they struggle with whether to give $5 to the Save the Republican Gay Whales for Jesus charity, while Mother Theresa spent her life putting humanity ahead of her own personal comforts.

I personally would feel ashamed of myself if I had the gall to do that.

Sinergy




Alumbrado -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 2:59:26 PM)

You contradict yourself.. in one breath you point out, quite correctly, that Mother Theresa dedicated herself to a larger ideal...which was the ideal envisioned by the Catholic Church.

Then you say that she put humanity first. 

You can't have it both ways, when the goals of the Church are so often mutually exclusive to the needs of humanity.

When the Popes move to a slum in Calcutta and start living exactly as did Jesus, I'll be impressed with claims of sainthood, etc.  Until then, they are just another bunch of power mongers with a big following, and even bigger bank accounts..




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:00:30 PM)

I do agree it is hard (for me) to negate Mother Theresa's entire mission, or the fact she spent her entire life living in circumstances that might well make most people cringe after about 2 weeks, enacting that mission. She could have done many other things with her life, instead, no doubt. 

I have a problem with the position of the Catholic church in regard to their stande re: No birth control (besides the "Rhythm method" which is a joke, for the most part - my little sister is a result of my mom being dedicated to using the "Rhythm method" of birth control), but I see that as a different matter. I love my little sister, but the idea is - she wasn't really supposed to happen.

Aren't you a martial arts instructor, Sinergy? I think it's great you try to teach people a method with which to defend themselves - I don't see why people would object to that. Females probably especially, (but anyone, really) could use training to do that, IMO.

- Susan




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:01:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't agree with this "each to their own" philosophy (very american, this individualism).


OK.

In that case, from now on, I will decide how you will live, and what values you will espouse. What's that? You're not okay with that? Okay, must be me you have an issue with. Let's pick someone else to decide, then. Can we agree on an authority? Obviously we cannot, so we are back to each to their own again. The only other alternative would be "might makes right". I much prefer each to their own. But since you probably have an idea what should replace "each to their own", how about you explain it to me, this common philosophy that you would hold all humans of all cultures to, past, present and future across the globe without exceptions?

P.S.: My dictionary lists that under "totalitarian" and "zealotry".




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:14:10 PM)

Aswad: I see your point, but - I think what kittensol was maybe saying, and the entire point of this thread - is that when sufferring of one portion of a population reaches such non-egalitarian and severe proportions (such as in Darfur, for example)that entire parts of it are being wiped out due to those beliefs, it isn't just "to each their own" anymore - it might be time for others to help take action to  help alleviate their suffering. Bosnia is another great example. So is the Holocaust.

I've had a problem with the dowry system in India since the first time I heard about its consequences. It really amounts to financial extortion. The fact it is a "tradition" doesn't really disguise that (to me).

I don't have to live there, granted, so maybe it's none of my business. However, I can maybe make a financial donation to help alleviate it, or something like that.

The people, who actually live in these countries don't like these ideas either (in many cases).
The only reason I can see that their objections are diregarded are:

1) They are female - so their opinion doesn't really "count" anyway, - although I am sure many men object as well (especially the fathers of daughters, most likely) and -

2) These traditions are ingrained in the culture, via centuries of use.

- Susan




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:26:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I don't see this as some competition for excellence in the world, nor as an effort to equalize everyone's resources. I see it simply as a call to alleviate severe suffering, period. It's simpler, and it works better for me that way. But to each their own POV.


The problem is that your approach causes new suffering, and aggravates what already exists.

Don't get me wrong, I get the impulse to help. But you're not helping. You're not part of the solution. You're part of the problem. For every generation you help bring up, you are helping bring new children into the world that you cannot support. There is a limited set of resources available, and funneling our surplus into their deficit is not going to help them one iota in the long run, nor is it going to be good for the world at large. It's just going to cause a downward spiral of suffering until the whole world suffers.

Let's start out with the basic facts of life. To live, we need resources, which is another way of saying "currency", which breaks down as goods or money (which is goods that have yet to take a form). Thus, each life needs a constant stream of currency, making it a matter where economics are applicable. Very simply put, economics of this sort breaks down as follows:

First you eliminate debt, then you lower expenses, then you invest in profit.

When you engage in charity, you are transferring an asset to them. Their land has other assets; i.e. natural resources. Assets should be spent in the order outlined above, as the constant stream of currency is what allows life, while growth in this stream of currency is what allows the standard of living to be raised. Work is the source of the income, the stream of currency, and land is one of the means to do this; agriculture, trade, etc.

The problem is that when spending an asset properly causes short-term suffering, people will always make the compromise of suffering less in the short term but more in the long term. You end up financially supporting one generation as a band-aid, and then the generation you supported will create a new, larger generation, one which will be an expense in the economy of life. However, you have not raised their income at all, so the new expense needs to be supported in the same way, or it, too, will suffer and die.

It is the way of nature, indeed reality, that these things stabilize themselves in a cruel way.

Unless you can contribute to lowering their population, or raising their ability to sustain themselves, you are just causing more suffering. And virtually all regular means of doing such a thing are horribly inefficient, at best. If you really care about suffering, you must think economy. The first viable step in this direction is to teach them about economy and how it applies to family planning.

Regular education is next in line, but will only benefit them if they are able to bring things up to a subsistance standard of living; basically, it is an investment, and thus a very poor choice when the expenses exceed the income. Reading, writing, math, and so forth, is a useless set of skills at first. How to build and manage a society, from the bottom up, is a very useful set of skills, however, starting with family planning, hygiene, disease control, agriculture, construction, and so forth.

Treat the disease, not the symptoms.




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:33:17 PM)

Aswad: I am always intrigued by your posts. I appreciate what you have to say here.

As for me, I don't have any kids, so my conscience is clean (but that was due to circumstances, not particulalry choice. Not altogether anyway). While personally, I can't go as far as to deny people the right to procreate (by law anyway), I agree it would  be ideal if more people would take their circumstances and potential parenting skills into consideration before procreating in the first place.

I've toyed with the idea for years of making people licensed to become parents (making them take a parenting class first, etc).
It is truly a totalitarian idea, I'll admit that. And also would be very difficult to implement (if not impossible) But I used to do volunteer work in a children's shelter for abused kids, so I may have a rather skewed view on this topic.

- Susan 




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:34:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"Humankind" please, Orion, "humankind" ROFL!!!


No need to nitpick over the choice of words.

While there is an ongoing shift in language patterns, it is an established convention (though one that is being phased out) that "mankind" or "man" (as opposed to "a man" or "the man") refers to humans as a species. Yes, the new term "humankind" is also apt, and it is becoming widely adopted, but there's no need to police against terms headed for obsolescence, regardless of the underlying agenda. The term will die a quiet death on its own.

Besides which, is it really in the best interests of feminism to divert attention from an issue of much greater significance over to something so trivial as the choice between two synonyms? It's like Norwegian feminists agonizing over changing the zebra walk signs to gender neutral ones, rather than concentrating on things like trafficking, etc.

I'm as much for equal rights and such as anyone else, but I use the terms interchangeably.

Don't read hostility against women into everything a man says; it breeds hostility. [:D]




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:40:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I have already stated that there are exceptions to the general societal construct which marginalizes women.  From my understanding, these sorts of societies develop during times of little / no warfare and there are a surplus of males.  It is a supply / demand issue, not a "western culture bad" sort of thing.


Viking culture cannot exactly be said to have marginalized women, but did not evolve in a surplus of males.
As to whether there was little or no warfare... that depends on your definition, I guess.

Interesting mention of the long-distance truckers, by the way; thank you for that.

quote:


Seems a bit arrogant and condescending to make the statement that there was no prostitution before the West showed up.


I would just say it is a false statement, and leave it at that.

To say it's arrogant and condescending is a negative value judgment on prostitution, which has traditionally been one of the ways for a woman to be self-reliant in a patriarchal culture. Face it, men are generally desperate vagina-addicts, and the demand will always outstrip the supply. It's a safety net that men themselves lack.




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:43:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

synecdoche, please, Orion, synecdoch...ROFL


One of these days, I'm going to give you a hug or something; you always expand my vocabulary. [:D]




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:46:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I don't think it's particularly arrogant to say that arming one's children as suicide soldiers is hardly a way to run an army, either. 


Perhaps not arrogant, but certainly faulty. It works, doesn't it?




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:46:44 PM)

cloudboy stated in another thread and post that (men's lack of a vagina, and their craving for it) is the entire reason for some people's hatred of the idea of ProDommes. There was yet another thread be-moaning the existence of ProDommes, a few days ago. 

I don't want to side-track the discussion, but I thought he was probably right. But it also makes me wonder why their aren't more male ProDoms - because females can crave cock just as much, IMO. But I did think he had a good point. 

- Susan




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:51:02 PM)

Aswad: It "works" - so did early-Industrialization employment of young children in factories "work" in the U.S.,at one time.

A civilized and advanced society will find ways to enhance lives of children, or at least not endanger them, IMO, not merely use them.

In my opinion, cultures in Afghanistan and Pakistan (and a few other countries, also) are truly living in the Stone Age, regarding how they view the value of females and children generally. And it's only to their detriment, in the long run. The sooner they can wake up to that, the better for them. Yes, that may be an arrogant statement, but it is my opinion.

- Susan 




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:52:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Not just in these cultures, meacleaver: look at Mother Theresa, that insane catholic fanatic fraud! She oeuvred against women's rights all of her life. And she was beatified! People still look up to the old crone.


Ad hominem (e.g. insane, fanatic, fraud, old crone) attacks against a dead women is rather low, don't you think?

Her beatification was for her work for the church, and entirely merited.

Are you saying I should refrain from helping anyone because I have views on what help I am willing to give, or what people I am willing to help? Perhaps I should just stop buying goods from countries that are poor? Sure sounds like a viable way to improve things, doesn't it? Or not. What matters is that they help someone, not why they did it. On the other hand, if the church cut down on their work, there would be fewer fanatical humanists in the long run, so it might be a good thing. [:D]




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:54:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

The problem in China is going to have to be addressed, because you have classrooms of boys who do not expect to be married ever already.


That problem is already addressed: they will die in time, baring any illegal H'sien. [:D]




Aswad -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 3:56:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Complete and utter bollocks. I have said repeatedly that the issue isn't abortion, and that in this case abortion is merely instrumental in propagating a tradition of misogyny and patriarchy.


So you are just saying that the problem is that they're making the choice for reasons you don't approve of?

That's not pro-choice, that's pro-death.




SusanofO -> RE: Eradicating women. (8/22/2007 4:01:15 PM)

Aswad: In the meantime, though - they are completely ignoring many fundamental rights of females - that is just okay with you then? I mean, I know it's not - and maybe you are just trying to get people to calm down by saying its happened before in history - But - we could be in a position to alter future history, here, for the better, by intervening in some of these places with things like charity, etc.

The idea objecting to these practices is being "culturally intolerant" is ludicrous to me - when many in the population in these countries we are discussing also object to these practices themselves. 
 
- Susan




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