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RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 7:38:03 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating
This concept confuses me...
trying to wrap my head around being able to actually submit> so casually, to frquently changing partners, where $ is the motivator vs emotional and mental service. Is there trust involved? how is that established on a rotating basis?

It's not submitting so much as bottoming. There's trust that each person will respect the others position and payment will be received for specific services rendered.

quote:

and giving total control of oneself to randomly selected ( because they can pay the fee ) aggressive and controlling/control-based type individuals > not only confuses me, it has "victim" written all over it. ..imo..
is it more of a "bottoming" ( to a Topping ) situation??...and then adding the $$ exchange part ?

A pro always chooses his/her clients.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Cyntilating)

Post #: 21

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 9:22:38 AM

MMMMudd

Posts: 83
Joined: 7/16/2006
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I'm sure there's plenty of aspiring dominates out there who could benefit from the services of an experienced professional submissive.

Sadly there's a strange stigma in the US about getting pleasure for money. I used to know a hustler, with a bit of an SM bent. He would complain endlessly about meeting guys who wanted to indulge in all manor of twisted scenarios, including ass fucking him with a gun, tying him to the bumper of their car and driving around in the woods, shooting him up with heroin, and other horrifically unsafe practices, then have those same guys get visibly upset when my friend would talk about payment for such services.

I guess cash is a hard limit for many.
Mudd

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 22

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 10:25:49 AM

submittous

Posts: 345
Joined: 6/12/2004
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I think the reason there are so few pro subs or pro bottoms is the low number of Doms willing to pay for bdsm. Five to ten years ago we had a couple of slaves who wanted to try making a living as pro bottoms, both were attractive and experienced bottoms, one had been a phone sex worker and was skilled as such. We had a few proDomme friends who booked 5 to 10 clients a week and the bottoms were lucky to see 3 a month. All most all of the clients demanded sex or wouldn't come back. All in all we determined that there just wasn't a real market for that service at realistic prices.

Just our experience I know and others may have different ones due to their personality, location or other circumstance.

Bill

_____________________________

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 23

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 11:46:48 AM

Switchblayde

Posts: 40
Joined: 6/3/2007
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I agree theres a lot of stigma attached to paying for bdsm and I'm sometimes criticised for exploiting the scene but there is a demand, I enjoy what I do. I am very professional, treat my clients with respect, never pre judge people or question motives.

Doms book me for a variety of reasons, among them:

1. They are in town and want a one off D/s encounter either in a rented dungeon or their hotel.
2. Its a new experience. Something they want to try just once.
3. I have few hard limits and enjoy what I do.
4. I'm a post op TS.

_____________________________

Jamais vaincu..........

(in reply to submittous)

Post #: 24

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 2:47:05 PM

fungasm

Posts: 321
Joined: 8/2/2007
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I think the number is actually much lower than reflected here. If you take places like Eros Guide, Max Fisch, MyRedbook, and TER- you discover that the female domme outnumber the female subs about 15 to 1 possibly as much as 50 to 1. There are a lot of femdommes.

It's not about the money. I know about a dozen femsubs and each makes $300-$1,200 per hour. The average for a good femsub is $500 per hour plus tip.   Most work 10-15 hours per week. You can do the math.

But it's a ROUGH way to earn a living. The good news is, most pro-subs are actually safer than those who play for free- because gentleman who can afford them tend to be more respectful. (Don't even start to argue this one- anyone in any part of the sex industry knows that money does become respect. If they are willing to pay you, they see you as something of value. It's a sick construct- but most rapists and others wretch people start out as cheap.) But even as the client doesn't hurt you deliberately, there are always accidents. Even a "normal" session will leave you bruised and used.

Have you ever been caned? Seriously- taking 40 lashes from a cane? It leaves you unable to sit for a week.   Or had your face fucked so your airway is closed off for 30 seconds to a minute at a time? It doesn't kill you, no risk of that. But it's terrifying.   There are some women who really get into it and really enjoy it- and others who can't even imagine doing it for any price.

One of the amazing ones: Bebedoll. http://www.bebedoll.net (Whom I get to meet up with this year at Folsom-WOO_HOO!!!)

Alison

_____________________________

"Science is a lot like sex. Sometimes something useful comes of it, but that's not the reason we're doing it." (Richard Feynman)

Blog: http://antidomme.sensualwriter.com

(in reply to wintermute128)

Post #: 25

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 3:06:35 PM

Switchblayde

Posts: 40
Joined: 6/3/2007
Status: offline

Yes, I have been caned. And taken needles, flogged, whipped. Wax play and w/s and knife play also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fungasm

Have you ever been caned? Seriously- taking 40 lashes from a cane? It leaves you unable to sit for a week. Or had your face fucked so your airway is closed off for 30 seconds to a minute at a time? It doesn't kill you, no risk of that. But it's terrifying. There are some women who really get into it and really enjoy it- and others who can't even imagine doing it for any price.

One of the amazing ones: Bebedoll. http://www.bebedoll.net (Whom I get to meet up with this year at Folsom-WOO_HOO!!!)

Alison

_____________________________

Jamais vaincu..........

(in reply to fungasm)

Post #: 26

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 3:15:29 PM

fungasm

Posts: 321
Joined: 8/2/2007
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I'm sorry beautiful- I was replying to the entire thread- not just you...

In case I didn't make it clear- prosubs who can do it are worth their weight in chocolate....

Do you have a website?

Alison

_____________________________

"Science is a lot like sex. Sometimes something useful comes of it, but that's not the reason we're doing it." (Richard Feynman)

Blog: http://antidomme.sensualwriter.com

(in reply to Switchblayde)

Post #: 27

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 3:17:29 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wintermute128

As far as I can tell there are very few professional submissives in the United States. Without doing an accurate survey, I'd say perhaps one pro-Sub for every pro-Domme. In contrast, the United Kingdom, with it's active spanking community (they call it the English Vice for a reason) seems to have a lot more pro-Subs who bottom in spanking sessions.

I assume that all of the Dommes (women tops) would not exist if there were no market for their services. So perhaps the answer is that there are just lots of male bottoms in the US. I know that the dating/romantic spanking community leans heavily toward M/F (male top) spanking. If you're a male bottom it appears very hard to find a romantic partner to top you. Perhaps this creates a market for pro-Dommes. Or perhaps being a professional submissive is more dangerous, so fewer women choose to do it. Any ideas on this? Any professional Dommes out there (or pro-Subs) who would like to venture an answer?

Curiously yours,

Wintermute

It's just that paying someone to let you beat (or spank) them is much like the old example of having to tie a steak around the neck of a person so the dog would play with them. The reaction of the dog to interact with the person would not be genuine affection.. they are going for the steak, as the pro-sub's focus would be in the payment received.

I would feel like a total looser if the only submissive I could get would be one I had to pay to submit to me.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to wintermute128)

Post #: 28

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 3:20:14 PM

Cyntilating

Posts: 581
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating
This concept confuses me...
trying to wrap my head around being able to actually submit> so casually, to frquently changing partners, where $ is the motivator vs emotional and mental service. Is there trust involved? how is that established on a rotating basis?

It's not submitting so much as bottoming. There's trust that each person will respect the others position and payment will be received for specific services rendered.

quote:

and giving total control of oneself to randomly selected ( because they can pay the fee ) aggressive and controlling/control-based type individuals > not only confuses me, it has "victim" written all over it. ..imo..
is it more of a "bottoming" ( to a Topping ) situation??...and then adding the $$ exchange part ?

A pro always chooses his/her clients.

.....Thank you LA : )

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 29

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 4:15:55 PM

Switchblayde

Posts: 40
Joined: 6/3/2007
Status: offline

I appreciate that. I was being a little too selective in my reply.
A website as such I dont have. I do however have a webpage on http://www.adultwork.co.uk/Ravens_Bitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: fungasm

I'm sorry beautiful- I was replying to the entire thread- not just you...

In case I didn't make it clear- prosubs who can do it are worth their weight in chocolate....

Do you have a website?

Alison

_____________________________

Jamais vaincu..........

(in reply to fungasm)

Post #: 30

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 4:49:21 PM

WhiplashSmile

Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline

Perhaps these services are handled by others in the adult sex industry here in the US. Such as professional escorts, hookers, or prositutes! Some of these do some pretty amazing or wild things for money you know. So you may be overlooking something if you simply look at Pro-Sub vs. Pro-Domme alone.

Hey, I'm only pointing out the competition that pro-subs have. Pro-Dommes are the ones doing the topping. The Pro-subs, hookers, escourts and prositutes are the ones generally getting topped to Hell and back again. I said Generally that is.

Something to think about.

(in reply to wintermute128)

Post #: 31

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 6:19:02 PM

BlueeyesAries

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

new here and this was very useful.... will be reading all topics in time just went here first... on a long journey thank you all

(in reply to MasterMataeo)

Post #: 32

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/21/2007 7:41:25 PM

fungasm

Posts: 321
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
It's just that paying someone to let you beat (or spank) them is much like the old example of having to tie a steak around the neck of a person so the dog would play with them. The reaction of the dog to interact with the person would not be genuine affection.. they are going for the steak, as the pro-sub's focus would be in the payment received.

I would feel like a total looser if the only submissive I could get would be one I had to pay to submit to me.

Wow. You are equating some amazing women with dogs. Lovely. Prosubs don't focus on the payment received. If that's the only thing they focus on, they are in the wrong business.

I'm sorry you would feel like a loser (looser is what happens when the dildo is too big). Prosubs are a resource for when you need a professional. They can help you explore things that your current partners are comfortable with. It's an expensive experience, but they do turn fantasies into reality.

Also- for the best prosubs- if you can convince them to give you the time of day- you should feel honored. The great ones are few and far between, and they do get to choose whom they play with.

Alison

_____________________________

"Science is a lot like sex. Sometimes something useful comes of it, but that's not the reason we're doing it." (Richard Feynman)

Blog: http://antidomme.sensualwriter.com

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 33

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/22/2007 12:51:26 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fungasm

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
It's just that paying someone to let you beat (or spank) them is much like the old example of having to tie a steak around the neck of a person so the dog would play with them. The reaction of the dog to interact with the person would not be genuine affection.. they are going for the steak, as the pro-sub's focus would be in the payment received.

I would feel like a total looser if the only submissive I could get would be one I had to pay to submit to me.

Wow. You are equating some amazing women with dogs. Lovely. Prosubs don't focus on the payment received. If that's the only thing they focus on, they are in the wrong business.

I'm sorry you would feel like a loser (looser is what happens when the dildo is too big). Prosubs are a resource for when you need a professional. They can help you explore things that your current partners are comfortable with. It's an expensive experience, but they do turn fantasies into reality.

Also- for the best prosubs- if you can convince them to give you the time of day- you should feel honored. The great ones are few and far between, and they do get to choose whom they play with.

Alison

And are they so benevolent and yearning to teach and direct that they would give you the time of day for FREE???? The only other benefit to the Pro-sub, would be one where if they are a person can't find a relationship, thus creating a situation where at least some attention is better than no attention. I stand by my opinion.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to fungasm)

Post #: 34

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/22/2007 5:25:02 PM

fungasm

Posts: 321
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline

Does your doctor give you the time of day for free? Your therapist? The chef at your favorite restaurant? Your personal trainer? Your EMT?

Are you aware that during the Civil War it was argued that Nurses shouldn't be paid for their service, because they were serving for the good of the Union? There were those who tried to imply that it was something which shouldn't be affiliated with cost, because that would taint it.

There is always consideration in a relationship. With prosubs you know where you stand.

You get your opinion. Prosubs are not benevalent, saints in leather. They are women who will take what your need to dish out, who can teach you how not to hurt your partner, and who can help you develop the confidence to pursue your fantasies in your own life.

Alison

_____________________________

"Science is a lot like sex. Sometimes something useful comes of it, but that's not the reason we're doing it." (Richard Feynman)

Blog: http://antidomme.sensualwriter.com

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 35

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/22/2007 5:33:49 PM

littlesarbonn

Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline

Okay, I was just going to let this thread go, but I do have a small contribution to make. I've lived in a few houses of bondage that were run by a Headmistress (usually the one who moved me in), and these places almost always had about a 60/40 split on dominants to submissives. But what I always found fascinating is that when the dominant women would tell me to do something that involved one of the submissive women, they almost always used the terminology that would go something like, "Please go assist Mistress Barbie" (or whatever her name was). So, even though she was submissive to every woman at the place and every client that showed up, whenever it came to the guy living at the place, they were always "Mistress" to me. I never said anything about it, but it really felt bizarre. After awhile, I started to notice that there was almost a pattern to the lifestyle in a house of domination. The submissive women would work a few months to a few years as a submissive, and then they'd start becoming switches, and then they'd eventually become dominants only. There are some hugely successful pro dominants in the San Francisco Bay Area that went that exact same route, and you'd never believe it unless you were there to experience it as it happened.

So, my point to all of this is to point out that I sensed at the time there was an almost negative perception of pro subbing, as if it was a badge of honor you had to go through before you could call yourself a dominant. Nowadays, I think most professionals start out dominant in the US, having skipped that instituted progression, mainly because I think turnover has forced such speed to happen.

Anyway, it's just my observational perspective, and I know it's not all inclusive, as there have been many comments in this thread alone that are pretty accurate, but I just thought I would add that to the conversation.

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(in reply to wintermute128)

Post #: 36

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/22/2007 5:34:45 PM

AAkasha

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Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

What about in the gay community? Anyone know how prevalent tops/bottoms are for pay in the gay leather community? And do they take straight clients also?

Akasha

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(in reply to wintermute128)

Post #: 37

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/22/2007 6:08:38 PM

Aimtoplease101

Posts: 319
Joined: 2/8/2006
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

You mean women will pay me for this? Wow-- if only I had known, I could have saved thousands on grad school and unsatisfying dates!

Where do I sign up?

Regards (and chuckles),
ATP

_____________________________

Pleasing you pleases me.

(in reply to wintermute128)

Post #: 38

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/22/2007 8:21:44 PM

wintermute128

Posts: 6
Joined: 8/1/2007
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I meant to write one pro-Sub per ten pro-Dommes. Not one to one. Sorry about the mistake.

I'd like to think most of you for your replies. I had not logged in for a day and returned to find a full thread.

I did read "The Pleasure's All Mine". But I didn't find the answer to this question there. There do seem to be pro-Subs who do a solid business. As far as I can tell, fees range from $140/hr to $300/hr. Women either insist that they not be heavily marked or charge extra for it. If you get spanked a lot you don't mark as easily, so I suspect that in this context marking is the result of a more severe session.

I agree, it does seem like there's more danger when it comes to bondage. Even leaving aside the obvious issues of someone doing something cruel, it seems to me that it tames more experience being good at bondage than it does in giving a spanking. When bondage there's making sure that circulation is not cut off and that weight is properly supported, that joints are not strained in dangerous ways. I've been to one class and I certainly don't feel like I "knew the ropes" after this class (this is not my kink, so I've never followed it up).

Several people also pointed out the market size issue. I think that this may be a factor in how few pro-Subs there are. At least with the spanking community (which is the only one I've been involved with), there is a very strong bias toward M/F spanking. If you're a single male spanking top, you look decent and have social skills, you probably stand a decent change of meeting a woman spanking bottom. Things are much more dire if you're a male spanking bottom. Most women I've encountered in the spanking community are not interested in topping. There are, of course, the rare few who just love to give a boy bottom a good hard spanking, but they are rare. For men who want to bottom this pretty much leaves the pro-Domme community (as some have pointed out in this thread).

Thanks again for your thoughtful comments. Best,

Wintermute

(in reply to wintermute128)

Post #: 39

RE: Why are there so few professional submissives in th... - 8/22/2007 8:30:56 PM

wintermute128

Posts: 6
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

What about in the gay community? Anyone know how prevalent tops/bottoms are for pay in the gay leather community? And do they take straight clients also?

Akasha

I only know second hand. I have been told that as a male top, if my tastes ran that way, I'd have a full dance card of naughty boys lining up for a spanking. Given my difficulties in finding a woman spanking friend, I soemtimes wish that my tastes did run in this direction. But we don't choose our orientation. I think that the same dynamics may exist in the gay community. Lots of men who want to bottom and fewer tops.

I once know a woman who loved to beat men hard with a strap. No role play, no warm up, just a hard bare bottom strapping as hard as she could give it. She used to play at the gay leather bars and sex clubs in San Francisco and she had not shortage of bare bottoms presenting themselves for punishment.

Wintermute

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 40

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