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is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 10:04:31 AM   
yourGuardian


Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		Hi all, bare with me on this because I'm just putting it out there, not sure how I completely feel but this is something I've been considering....

I can completely understand D/s in the bedroom. There is something ingrained, quite possibly manifested from some early life interaction, that creates a desire for D/s sexually. If thats the case, in a HEALTHY, CONSENSUAL relationship I cannot envisage anyone having a problem with it, accept idiots, BUT.....

I take it further than that... my relationships are Master/slave and I have an ongoing internal monologue that questions it all!! While I think sexual D/s could quite easily originate from early life experience, I also think the desire to be Dominated in "real life" can have a similar origin... I cant for a second believe its innate!! It has to manifest through experience and my fear is its bad experience!! I could expand but to try and preempt every possiblity would be an exercise in futility, I'm sure everyone can visualise a scenario where someone could have poor early experiences, or poor relationship experiences, that left them with a "need" to hand over control.

Now I think I am a "good guy"... I'm not possessive, I am enabling, and I try to make sure a girl of mine is doing the right things and being all she can and wants BUT I can also click my fingers and have any command obeyed. Is that right? I believe that subs/slaves do "need" it and feel lost without the control, and therefore Doms are just giving a girl what the sub needs, whats the harm in that?! ... but couldnt a good counsellor do a better job?! A heroin addict needs heroin but is it not right to help them stop?! there are girls on here that could become anything they wanted and they could end up with a guy who crushes them into a nub ... or they could end up with a guy like me who would try and do their best for them, but could just be taking advantage!! who am I to decide whats best for anyone? who are you to? ... Like I say I am still arguing with myself but I thought I'd put it out there... if anyone is offended by this, perhaps the suggestion a sub could possibly have low self-esteem, you're an idiot!! I'm not saying any of this is right I'm saying what do people think?
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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 10:08:19 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Trust me, not all subs feel "lost" without a master and plenty of dominants are way more lost than plenty of vanillas and subs I know.

Some subs do have low self esteem.  Some subs do need a good therapist far more than they need a dominant in their lives.  Good dominants recognize this and don't try to pretend to be the therapist that the sub needs.

You can't base what YOU choose in YOUR life on some fucked up people.  There are fucked up people who are vanilla as well.

It's not the authority dynamic which makes a relationship good or bad, and it's not the 'source' of the motivation which is good or bad either- although there are many many out there who WILL try and use bdsm/Ds as an escape route or as a magical cure for their problems.  They always find out the truth in the end.

We're all adults, choosing who and what we involved ourselves in. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to yourGuardian)
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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 10:11:24 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourGuardian

While I think sexual D/s could quite easily originate from early life experience, I also think the desire to be Dominated in "real life" can have a similar origin... I cant for a second believe its innate!! It has to manifest through experience and my fear is its bad experience!! I could expand but to try and preempt every possiblity would be an exercise in futility, I'm sure everyone can visualise a scenario where someone could have poor early experiences, or poor relationship experiences, that left them with a "need" to hand over control.


My experience forces me to believe that the "you are into BDSM" or "you are a sub because you've been molested/abused/whatever" is complete and utter BS. I've encountered too many different types of people with completely different backgrounds to point to any common experience that "made us this way". I definately know that I was never abused mentally, physically, or sexually as a child and the sexual abuse I have suffered came long after my interest in BDSM.
quote:


Now I think I am a "good guy"... I'm not possessive, I am enabling, and I try to make sure a girl of mine is doing the right things and being all she can and wants BUT I can also click my fingers and have any command obeyed. Is that right?

Is she consenting to it?
quote:


I believe that subs/slaves do "need" it and feel lost without the control, and therefore Doms are just giving a girl what the sub needs, whats the harm in that?! ... but couldnt a good counsellor do a better job?!

Again, I must say... BS. I don't "need" it any more than I need any relationship. I am not a lost soul, adrift and weak without Valyraen. He wouldn't have me if I wasn't already a strong, capable woman who managed her life quite well without him and will do so again if something happens to take him away from me.
quote:


A heroin addict needs heroin but is it not right to help them stop?! there are girls on here that could become anything they wanted and they could end up with a guy who crushes them into a nub ... or they could end up with a guy like me who would try and do their best for them, but could just be taking advantage!! who am I to decide whats best for anyone? who are you to? ... Like I say I am still arguing with myself but I thought I'd put it out there... if anyone is offended by this, perhaps the suggestion a sub could possibly have low self-esteem, you're an idiot!! I'm not saying any of this is right I'm saying what do people think?

What do I think?

I think you have "dom guilt" and a skewed take on BDSM. You may want to take yourself to a kink-friendly therapist to work this out. Take some time to get over it and get to know all the different types of submissive men and women. A lot, if not most, of us are strong capable people who do as well without our owners as any "vanilla" person when they are single. We don't need therapy because we are submissive. We may need therapy for other things, but not for being submissive.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 8/21/2007 10:13:55 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to yourGuardian)
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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 10:16:00 AM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		The incorrect assumption in all this is that the girl is somehow broken because she is a submissive, and that you are equivalent to a god in your domination. Why do you automatically assume that submissives need counselors? And why do you compare their need to submit with the need for heroin?

Such statements are naive and basically useless. There are broken people everywhere, not just in BDSM, who will continue to make poor choices until they decide to fix themselves - no one else can fix them.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to yourGuardian)
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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 10:18:02 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Its wonderful to see real introspection like this, thank you for your post!

I have struggled with this myself so I understand completely where you are comming from.

The difference isn't the act, it is the motivation.  A parent spanking a child isn't a good or a bad act, it is WHY they do it that makes the difference.  If you do it because you don't know how to control them or yourself and you are lashing out, that is bad, if you do it because they almost ran into the street without looking, that can be effective.

If you use that control to enhance both of your lives, that is a good thing.  If you control her in an attempt to hide/mask/deal with your own insecurities, that is a bad thing.  My ex had massive insecurity issues and together we worked through much of those and we did it together.  BDSM can be theraputic but as you said, it isn't a substitute for therapy and is only beneficial if it nourishes both on whatever level they need.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 10:22:28 AM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		For some people I believe they have a born biological predisposition for being Dom, sub or even switch.   For some people, it's based upon their experiences and social conditioning.

This is one thing interesting about the field of Psychology, that there a different major perspectives.  Personally, I was rather disillusioned in the middle of Psych II at college.  Because people are made to pick one of these perspectives if they are puesuing a degree in Psychology.   I actually had a great conversation with the professor in his office regarding this as well.   Personally, I feel and believe that all these perspectives have merit.   That they all play a role combined in the development of us Human beings.  I believe some people are simply more Biologically driven, other are more driven by their own experiences.   I'm not gonna to pretend to be an expert in this area.   I have my own thoughts and views regarding this.

Personally, I to don't prescribe to things being as only way school of thoughts.  People are rather diverse creatures, with diverse body chemistry and diverse experiences.  What works well for one person, may harm another, or have no affect upon another at all.   Best to look at a person as the whole person they are, mind, body and soul.   Instead of picking a perspective that focuses upon one and ingores the rest.

Oh Hell, face it, I'm just another Pervy Domly Dude with an account on an internet sex dating website.  What does any of this have to do with tieing up naked girls to chairs and attaching clothes pins to their body?  LOL....  

(in reply to yourGuardian)
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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 10:44:22 AM   
yourGuardian


Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		Whiplashsmile, SimplyMicheal I think you've took it in the way it was meant and you've got some interesting thoughts... people talking of "Domguilt" haha and "not all subs need" have missed the point slightly!! to provide every scenario would be about a 10,000 word post, I was trying to give you a flavour of my thoughts.... I'm gald to say a few hundred words isnt enough to capture my psyche. But whiplash... biological predisposition??? nahhh!! surely not!!

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 11:47:38 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		SM you cant win. Women complained that I was being sarcastic to them so I stopped. Now they bitch because they think that I dont like them because Im not sarcastic to them. I would tear my hair out but I dont have that much left. To the op. When you write out a long post it can get confusing on just what your trying to convey.  

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 11:55:47 AM   
yourGuardian


Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		I agree but I was just trying to get the question out with a flavour of, not my thoughts as such, but some of the qu's... thats hard in a few words but I take your point.... having said that, you are going to love my next thread!! ... from then on if I write something, I'll keep it short and sweet!!

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 12:09:03 PM   
caught4u


Posts: 132
Joined: 5/25/2007
Status: offline 		maybe you should stop listening to those voices, and just do what feels right to you.  your life will be much quieter

_____________________________

"Be Yourself - Everyone Else is Taken"


~owned by Master of Wind~

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 12:13:05 PM   
yourGuardian


Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		caught4u..... perfect answer!! I so wish I could find the bloody off switch, ironically thats just gives me another thing to rattle around in my thoughts and over analyse!! :)

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 1:00:23 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourGuardian

Whiplashsmile, SimplyMicheal I think you've took it in the way it was meant and you've got some interesting thoughts... people talking of "Domguilt" haha and "not all subs need" have missed the point slightly!! to provide every scenario would be about a 10,000 word post, I was trying to give you a flavour of my thoughts.... I'm gald to say a few hundred words isnt enough to capture my psyche. But whiplash... biological predisposition??? nahhh!! surely not!!


Why not biological? What experience makes us this way?

Some people are heterosexual, some homosexual, some asexual. There are far too many people with far too many varied backgrounds in each grouping for me to believe it's anything other than biological, as with dominance and submissive. What leads you to believe that is it not biological?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to yourGuardian)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 1:16:01 PM   
yourGuardian


Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		To say something is biological is to say its innate. To say that a person can be born biologically hard wired to want to be Dominated or want to Dominate or want one sometimes and the other at other times... Its actually quite difficult to persuasively, with empirical evidence, say that intelligence is hard wired in any significant form so to say the desire for this lifestyle is, I just cant accept and I rarely have a stonewall position on anything. As much coke as he did I have to go down the freud route with this... subconscious desires, the ID overriding the the ego and superego, unconscious associations... If anyone could actually give strong evidence, thats one thing, but to say that too many diverse people are into D/s therefore it has to be biological I dont think is very strong. (let me make it clear to anyone who's particulary sensitive to the wording of things... this is what I think, not "the truth"!!)

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 1:20:45 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:



To say something is biological is to say its innate. To say that a person can be born biologically hard wired to want to be Dominated or want to Dominate or want one sometimes and the other at other times... Its actually quite difficult to persuasively, with empirical evidence, say that intelligence is hard wired in any significant form so to say the desire for this lifestyle is, I just cant accept and I rarely have a stonewall position on anything. As much coke as he did I have to go down the freud route with this... subconscious desires, the ID overriding the the ego and superego, unconscious associations... If anyone could actually give strong evidence, thats one thing, but to say that too many diverse people are into D/s therefore it has to be biological I dont think is very strong. (let me make it clear to anyone who's particulary sensitive to the wording of things... this is what I think, not "the truth"!!)


That's exactly what I'm saying. That a lot of sexuality and personality is innate. Some things are shapable but not all things. What I'm asking is what experiences do you believe cause someone to be dominant or submissive since, as you mentioned, you sometimes think a submissive would be better served by seeing a therapist. This implies to me that you think think the experiences are bad things, being as one doesn't generally shell out the money and time to see a therapist to discuss the good things in life.

In short: What experience have you found common to those in BDSM that leads you to believe this is caused by a life experience? I'm not talking incredibly scientific data, the crude "All those I've encountered share X,Y, or Z" is enough to explain your personal belief.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to yourGuardian)
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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 1:30:15 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		To be female, to be gay, to be submissive, to be asexual - can all be innate qualities.  Or they can be 'man-made'.  Both 'versions' can exist.
If ones paths continuously only find one quality, and never learn from that, then I would rather question the person repeating their behaviour.  Not all submissives are mentaly unstable just as not all dominants are abusive.
 
Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 1:39:42 PM   
InsAndOutsFL


Posts: 16
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline 		I was never abused UNTIL I met my first Dom who offered to help me find myself and had him disrespect me, disrespect our set limits, and cause me extreme emotional distress (and permanate scars).  So really...to me I agree with those who say its bullshit to say that a sub is a sub because they are fragile and abused little lost puppies who need to be taken care of.  Granted, maybe some are like this.  But, not all by a long shot.  I actually was taking my first leap because I had seen this life on the internet and was so fasinated by it that I wanted to try it, I wanted to know if it was really what they made it out to be.  It helped alot when I expressed this to my husband who desired to try things also.  I just did not understand things about saftey, trust, and other issues that I do now.  Trial by fire...


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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 2:01:40 PM   
yourGuardian


Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		InsAndOuts... I dont disagree!! what I wasnt doing was saying all subs are this and all Doms are this and D/s is this, I was just asking what people think and I think thats a fair comment!! I really do not hope all this is all wrong!! :)

Darcyand theDark on the other hand.... how can you say To be female, to be gay, to be submissive, to be asexual - can all be innate qualities.  Or they can be 'man-made'.  Both 'versions' can exist.

Based on what?? you must appreciate that to have an answer like that you should have some actual evidence?!?! its not true because you say it!! do you have ONE reference to say that being submissive/Dom/switch can be innate?

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RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 2:07:16 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourGuardian

its not true because you say it!! do you have ONE reference to say that being submissive/Dom/switch can be innate?


You still haven't provided any evidence. Until you tell us what experiences you think forms dominance and submission we don't know what you are talking about.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to yourGuardian)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 2:13:11 PM   
ocilla


Posts: 1764
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourGuardian
caught4u..... perfect answer!! I so wish I could find the bloody off switch, ironically thats just gives me another thing to rattle around in my thoughts and over Analise!! :)


There are medications that are very effective at reducing the voices.  I had a former employee that was schizophrenic and his meds did wonders for him - made him a productive and appreciated member of our restaurant. tis true.....

_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder

It takes a kinky village...

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: is all this right?? - 8/21/2007 2:13:50 PM   
yourGuardian


Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		Aquaticsub... this is psychology, its all comes under learnt behaviour, experience, conditioning or "it just is" until someone proves a particular element is innate!! thats how psychology works and one of THE hardest elements to prove, and the easiest to declare, is "its innate"!!

(in reply to AquaticSub)
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