RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (Full Version)

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SugarMyChurro -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 9:44:32 PM)

So everyone else is rude because you say so.

But you have not drunk the Kool-Aid even though the rest of us can tell that you have.

Got it!

[8|]




DomKen -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 9:54:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I am not discussing this further. I guess you didn't bother to read this thread, or do very investigative rsearfch. Because i have and there are hundreds all over the world. I guess I just find it rather dis-heartening that supposedly Domly Doms dont have better judgment (or manners) than to seemingly have no purpose than to blast an OP's topic rather than starting a thread of their own, if their views are so strong in the opposite direction. Discuss this with someone else - or start your own venomously anti-religious, anti-MotherTheresa thread, then. I am sure there will be plenty of folks willing to write in.

- Susan


A few responses.

If there are hundreds all over the world then naming one should be frightfuly trivial. Just name one project any where that is getting continuing funding from the MoC. Don't spout ad hominen and stop posting that you quit and then respond to every post. Just name one. You'll win and I'll shut up.

As to your little ad hom foray into claiming this debate is off topic, maybe you missed the name of this forum. Furthermore if I've hurt Level's feelings by posting comments he considers inappropriate he is welcome to inform me of that fact and I as a moral and ethical person, unlike a certain Albanian sadist, will attempt to find a way to make amends but that is between he and I and is inherently no business of yours until and unless I fail to make satisfactory amends.

In closing let me say how unpleasant your posts have become over the course of this thread. You post no facts but plenty of attacks against other posters and against sources you disagree with. This appears to me to be the most basic sort of ad hominen which is pretty universally viewed by the truly intelligent as an admission by a lesser intellect that they have no useful response. So why not cease attacking the messenger and apply that supposedly superior intellect to the message instead.




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 9:54:52 PM)

I certainly think you were pretty rude, and it has nothing to do with my religion, or lack of it, or yours. You just seem to want someone to auto-agree with your negative, ignorant, cynical POV full of vast generalizations. I just don't, that's all. What anyone else thinks is their own business.

If you want to believe everything you read without bothering to examine it's probable veracity or its source, and your cynicism allows to disparage the vast accomplishments of others out of the gate, without bothering educating yourself on them in any way - then you are the one who has "drunk the Kool-Aid", pal, not me. 

- Susan




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 9:59:06 PM)

DomKen: Not my job. I already posted on it, pages ago. Too lazy to look it up? Not my problem. You're then one who has a problem with it, not me. I don't feel a need to defend my POV with another post about it. You should be able to do your own research.

- Susan




DomKen -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:01:01 PM)

This was edited into a post I was responding to and after seeing it feel i is incumbent on me to respond.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I don't feel particulary obligated to post any info. about that-  certainly not because it is doesn't exist - but because you've been both lazy and rude from the get go.

I've been rude? Would you care to post what I wrote that you consider rude? If you cannot point to something I wrote that is rude then I request you retract this base attack on my character.

You should also consider rereading your posts in this thread before assailing someone else as rude.




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:05:09 PM)

Well, not you as much as Churro. And you might consider educating yourself on the topic before you do. I guess I consider telling someone basically insinuating to someone that their religion sucks to be rude, yeah. Why bother to post?

- Susan




caitlyn -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:08:08 PM)

Susan dear ... you do realize you're debating with someone that actually used Christopher Hitchens as source material. Mr. Hitchens writes a bit for Vanity Fair ... aka ... The National Enquirer for trophy wives.
 
Now, I'm not as far along the "defend Mother Theresa" path as you are ... I really only generally defend nearly anyone against unfounded accusation ... but can say with confidence, that using something written by Christopher Hitchens in the bibliography of even a Middle School paper, should probably earn you a poor grade.
 
Bottom line, if Christopher Hitchens, and those like him, are what they got ... they got nothin'!




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:16:34 PM)

caitlyn: Thanks. I agree. I appreciate that.[:)]

- Susan




SugarMyChurro -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:19:48 PM)

Caitlyn, I disagree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens

While I don't always agree with Hitchens, what I do see in him as a journalist is an attempt to document what he sees or thinks is correct about an issue. I don't love the guy or anything. I treat him as I treat any source of information, as variable in quality.




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:24:00 PM)

Just because an author cites their sources, doesn't necessarily make what they have to say true or necessarily even believeable (to me). Like I said before, guess I just don't have enough faith to be an Atheist (and it's not what this thread is about anyway. Not to me.)

You can believe everything you read, or you can read it and evaluate it on your own, using your own judgment, and maybe even invesitage "the other side's" POV. Adn as for your objection to Mother T changing her views of her value in her life-time - look slike Hitchens has done much the same re: His own POVs. 

My bottom-line evaluation of Hitchens is that he is mostly a transparent, vehemently anti-religious psuedo-intellectual, out to make a fast buck for himself. To me, his is mostly a case of having some knowledge of a topic mixed with vehment, and polarizing, yet sometimes popular POVs indeed being a possibly dangerous thing.

IMO, he is a male version of Kitty Kelly, except he focusses on celebrities world reknowned for other things besides being a movie-star. But his goal is the same: Question and-or seek to destroy a well-established reputation, with no real proof and lots of innuendo, all dressed up to look like actual proof, while providing a very one-sided "biography" or information. I am pretty sure he's raking in the dough doing it, too.Which would be a reasonable goal for a person who claims to believe in reason, eh?     

- Susan




DomKen -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:33:57 PM)

So you want to dismiss Hitchens because he sells the occasional article to Vanity Fair. Obviously the true journalist would starve rather than have his words published in the magazine.

How about Aroup Chatterjee?
http://www.meteorbooks.com/index.html




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 10:46:26 PM)

Anyone who agrees to let a publishing company title their book: "The Final Verdict" should tell you something about how one-sided their POV is going to be (and possibly the size of their ego). And it should also scream: Blatant attempt to sell tons of books. They probably have, too.

- Susan




caitlyn -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 11:09:10 PM)

Chatterjee's information seems to focus more on dispelling the myths of the west, as opposed to making personal accusations about Mother Theresa herself. I don't doubt Chatterjee's words at all ... he seems far more reasonable in his approach, including his commentary about the "pathetic broadsides" of Christopher Hitchens.
http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/history/4628-aroup_chatterjee.html

But, this is the meat of my argument. I have no problem with Chatterjee's dispelling of the western myth of Mother Theresa. It's pretty clear, that she isn't what the western media wants to make of her. You have never heard me say otherwise. It is pretty clear that her works and deeds are inflated, by the Catholic spin machine. Color me stunned. [;)]

But, you take this too far, when you include the works of a shameful self-promoter like Christopher Hitchens as part of your argument. You take this too far, when you batch the arguments of a reasonable man like Chatterjee, with the unfounded, sensationalist accusations by second rate thinkers.

Who brings up the money? Is it Chatterjee ... no, it's Hitchens. Who makes the accusations of corruption, and being the collection plate for the Church? Is it Chatterjee ... no, it's Hitchens.

Chatterjee's basic point (highly paraphrased), is that the western media spin of life in Calcutta, isn't true at all ... and that things aren't roses, as is often projected in the west. He makes a good point, and one that is hard to argue against. Even if you put all the blame for this on the Catholic church (which is questionable), the worst you can say, is that the Church has a spin machine roughly on par with most governments and other large entities. Not a stretch, and even less of a surprise. If there was a saint of spin, it would be a Catholic saint.

In short, your case is like that of a lawyer that does have some good evidence, but has made the choice to include some very questionable, likely bullshit evidence in his case. The bottom line, is you spoiled what might have been good, with what is clearly crap. One bad apple, and all that ... better luck next time.

Not to worry, someone else will die soon, and you can count on Chris Hitchens to be Johnny on the spot with 'new information, offered for profit.'




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 11:20:31 PM)

Good point, caitlyn: If people are all so disappointed that in some of her clinics there were a few problems, or that there may have been times she did not "walk on water", it is due to people putting her on some pedestal to begin with. I've tried to make the point throughout this thread -she was a human being - why would the fact she acted like one be surprising? Hitchens never managed to prove a thing, IMO.

She is the last person, IMO, who maybe wanted to be turned into an Icon, and appears to me to have been very humble. If she let other people do that to her, I think it was because she wanted to further her humanitarian goals. I see nothing wrong with that. If people want to jump to conclusions and see it through a purely cynical lens, with no further evaluation of her value  that's their problem, I guess.  

- Susan




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/27/2007 11:59:04 PM)

by Chris Klontz (this is the author, he is evaluating the book DomKen cited) I am posting it simply because his one-sided POV made me so mad. But he could have easily looked it up himself, had he been very interested.
 
One POV:
 
Because of all of Mother Teresa’s extensive media
coverage, people lose sight of what she really wants to be seen
as: “A little pencil of God” who only wants to serve the
poorest of poor. Mother Teresa even said herself, “If I got to
heaven, it will be on account of all this publicity; I hate it. Why
all this fuss about us? Others do the same work as we do. Do it
perhaps better. Then why single us out?” (Le Joly 299).
 
The media has so extensively covered Mother Teresa’s work with
the poor in Calcutta that people tend to lose sight of the other
charitable work other missions are doing, particularly in India.
There are a few thousand registered charities in Calcutta, some
much larger than the Missions of Charity, yet Mother Teresa’s
mission arguably gets more coverage than all the other missions
in Calcutta combined.
 
Calcutta’s largest charity by far is the
Ramakrishna Mission. The Ramakrishna Mission cares for
about 10 times as many people as the Missionaries of Charity
(Chatterjee 283), yet receives roughly 84 times less media
coverage.2 This massive unbalance in media coverage, which
turns Mother Teresa into a celebrity, leaves major charities
largely invisible to the philanthropic donations from generous
individuals and organizations.
 
One might think that all this media coverage is good
because it brings the world to realization of the troubles in third
world countries and compels people to donate money to the
less fortunate. This is an admirable argument, but it has one
flaw: the money people donate should be spread amongst all
the charities. There were times when Mother Teresa had so
much money that she didn’t know what to do with it all **and
requested for a “Temporary halt to contributions until we have
used up what we have” (Chitkara 15). A German newspaper
2 For example a search ProQuest for articles relating to the Ramakrishna
Mission produces 64 documents. A search for articles relating to Mother Teresa
and her Mission produces 5381 documents.
Mother Teresa and Media Mayhem
6
claimed that “Excessive support to a single charity leading to
the needs of thousands of others being forgotten was probably
behind the request” (Chitkara 16).
 
Other charities of Calcutta
could really put to use some of the unused money that has been
offered to mother Teresa. Other large charities that few have
heard of like the Child in Need Institute (CINI) and the Bharat
Sevadhram Sangha both could use the money that Mother
Teresa had available to her. Most charities of India offer
different services, and the Missionaries of Charity offer very
few practical services that cater to the needs of India’s people (note: This is an opinion, and certainly differs from the second post source citation, below this one).
 
 
For instance in times of natural disaster and wars, the
Missionaries of Charity were either absent (note: not true in every case) from or playing a
minor part in the effort to restore order while other charities
were heavily battling for the needs of the Indian populace
(Chatterjee 280).
 
Other charities excel in other areas (Note: So what? Why should they not?)that
Mother Teresa’s order lacks in, such as providing medical care
and education (note: Maybe they do it better - but she does this work too. If they do, she already said she thought so too).
It is the heroification of Mother Teresa that makes her
virtually immune to criticism, and the small amount of
criticism that she does get is hurriedly dismissed.
 
 The personalized image of Mother Teresa created by the media
causes us to overlook the actual work she is doing and causes
us to not recognize the perhaps more effective work other
notable charities are doing to help the people of India (Note: Maybe. This doesn't make the work she does useless. Not by a long shot).
 
Because of this, there are times when Mother Teresa’s mission gets more
monetary support than they can handle, while other worthy
charities are deprived of financial support. Note: Like this is her fault? She started her own order. Why would it surprise anyone that is her mission? 
 
 It is through this process of media distorting reality, defined as
sentimentalization that causes us to not realize that the wellbeing
of the poor is being jeopardized by our biased views of
Mother Teresa (I can agree with this, but think the author seems partly like an incurable idealist).




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 12:04:27 AM)

Mother Theresa's work includes:
**Note to DomKen: It took me about 2 minutes to find this on the Internet:

Apostolic Work: Work through Sunday schools, Bible study groups, Catholic action groups and visit to hospitals, nursing homes and prisons.

Medical Care: Care through dispensaries, leprosy clinics, rehabilitation centres for leprosy patients. Also through homes for abandoned children; physically and mentally challenged children, sick and dying destitutes, AIDS patients, TB patients and malnutrition centres and mobile clinics.
 
Education Service: Service through primary schools in the slums, sewing classes, commercial classes, handicraft classes, pre-schools and after-school programs.

Social Activities: Activities through child welfare and education schemes; day creches; homes for the homeless, alcoholics and drug addicts; homes for unmarried mothers; night shelters; family planning centres.

Relief Services: Services where they provide food and clothing, dry rations, cooked meals and family emergency reliefs.

The Missionaries of Charity has established several homes and some of them are (Note: although there are more than this, her work includes 800 sites, spread in 40 countries):
     
1. Gandhiji Prem Nivas, Titagarh, Calcutta: To start with, a mobile clinic for leprosy patients under a tree at Titagarh, near Calcutta, was set up.  Today, Gandhiji Prem Nivas is a wonderful centre.  Prem Nivas was built by the leprosy patients themselves and is a place where they can both live and work.

2.  Shishu Bhavan, Calcutta: Children's home in Calcutta, is a paradise for sick and poor children who are mostly orphans left to the mercy of God.   Shishu Bhavan looks after about 500 or more malnourished children at one time, as well as takes care of poor unwed mothers.  There is also an outpatient section at which doctors dispense medical attention to perhaps 1,000 to 2,000 patients a week. There is also an adoption centre. 
 
Children who reach the age of ten and are not adopted are sent to boarding schools and then to colleges, or on to do vocational courses.  Once they have settled down in their lives, they are helped in getting married.  **They are also given a dowry to help them make a beginning. On the ground floor of Shishu Bhavan there are cooking facilities to feed over 1,000 hungry people daily.

3. Nirmal Hriday, Calcutta: The home for the dying destitutes in Calcutta was once a place for pilgrims to rest after travelling to the Kali temple.  Deep in the busy heart of the Kalighat area of the city, this building is actually joined to the temple itself.  They have more than 100 beds for men and women.  The number of beds can be increased according to the need.  When people come to the home, they are not in a state to speak.  But after a little care and food, they are placed in the register as 'unknown'.  After death they are cremated according to their religious beliefs.

Mother Teresa's life was dedicated towards the amelioration of pain and suffering from the lives of the poor, sick and destitutes.  When she left for her heavenly abode on September 5, 1997 in Calcutta, she left a void in the humanitarian world.

Mother Teresa's work has been recognised and acclaimed throughout the world and she has received a number of awards and distinctions, including the Pope John XXIII Peace Prize (1971) and the Nehru Prize for her promotion of international peace and understanding (1972). She also received the Balzan Prize (1979) and the Templeton and Magsaysay awards. She was also awarded Nobel  Peace Prize in 1979

The Missionaries of Charity has branches throughout the world (note: 800 sites, in over 40 countries) that carry out the work of the mission by rendering selfless service to the destitute and needy.
 
Note:*Golly gee - maybe that's where some - if not all- of the money went? When you are putting orphans not adopted through college and giving them dowries, I imagine that could get expensive[;)][:D]
Not to mention all of the rest of her work.





popeye1250 -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 12:13:28 AM)

Where are all the Hindu preists and Nuns?




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 12:21:34 AM)

Working with their own charities in India (and possibly elsewhere), I assume. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the Hindu Caste system renders that idea self-defeating. I dunno.

- Susan 




popeye1250 -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 12:23:14 AM)

Haven't those people ever heard of Norplant?




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 12:25:08 AM)

I dunno. If they want it, maybe they cannot afford it.

- Susan




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