RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (Full Version)

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Rule -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 1:03:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
You didn't intend to talk about the original topic form the start.

I addressed the dark night of the soul of the Vulture of Calcutta.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Your anti-religious sentiments

What anti-religious sentiments?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I think Mother Theresa's own spiritual struggle was a mark of her own humility. She was so embarrassed and ashamed of it, she did not want anyone to know. ... Her spiritual struggle was apparently very painful for her. Even she questioned for years, her own value.

It was a scam intended to get a promotion to beatification and sainthood. It was fully intended to be made public. In fact it was as well an insidious attack on christianity and all religions and spiritually aware people.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Nobody mentioned that (at least not more than once).

Yes, we already have grasped that any argument that has any value at all needs to be repeated ad infinitum and even ad nauseam. You have demonstrated that conviction at length.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
You might say this spiritual doubt represents a sign of greater humanity, humility, etc - but to an outsider it just seems like a kind of fallibility. An admission that she did not believe. Full stop.

So to me it seems like she couldn't quite believe the same shit she was whispering to the sick and dying. So, while simultaneously not providing the basic hospice care for which she was a celebrity all over the world, she also tried to comfort people with insincerely spoken words.

Quite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
She was a human being like anyone else.

No, she was not. Someone that gets up long before dawn and that works her evil indefatigably until long after darkness has fallen is not human - and certainly not like anyone else.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
possibly holy acts. Even the Pope has not done that yet - she is not declared by him to be a saint. 

The Vulture of Calcutta performed no holy acts. Any beatification or declaration of sainthood by a pope is a strong indication that the person concerned was utterly evil.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
If 'ya wanna be a Devils' Advocate - then do a little of your own work, pal.

As I see it, SMC is opposing the Devil and you are defending the Devil.




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 1:11:19 AM)

I am not interested in discussing this with you, Rule. Especially when you cite only your own opinion, at the expense of any data from another source. You have yet, to cite one source, in a thread over 16 pages long, that suports your POV in any objective sense. Since I've already made my position clear, plus have bothered to cite some evidence supporting it, I don't think we have much to discuss. If you want to start a thread on Theology, Atheism, or an anti-Mother Theresa thread of your own, or someone else wants to answer you here, fine with me.

- Susan




meatcleaver -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 1:13:26 AM)

What amuses me when discussing souls and good and evil, is that people who believe in a spiritual side to life always seem to know the mind of god or whatever higher/greater power they say they believe in. The whole idea is laughable and relegates their claim to spiritual insight to no more than an excuse for their own myopic superstitions.

I've never seen any evidence of evil existing or of its opposite, saintliness (both requiring some other worldliness). Mother T was working according to her own plan, whatever her motives, no one really knows because no one could have read her mind. One can only look at the hard facts and decide whether she was guilty of selfishness or self promotion or not.




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 1:15:07 AM)

Well if someone isn't religious than they might indeed find it amusing, I imagine. As for anyone's anti-religious POV: Piffle. This means someone's work is worth nothing? Athieists bore me to tears, and I find their arrogance astounding. Agnosticism I can handle. I find true bona-fide Atheism at least as much of a joke as any fundamentalist, fire-and-brimstone Christianity. Like I said, guess I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist. However, I will say: Where are all of those beautiful Cathedrals built by Atheists? Where are all of the charities they've supported - as a group effort? I haven't seen any.

However, I think it takes some gall for anyone to dimiss the objective value of, or make light of a life that obviously helped so many, on the basis of hearsay, a few dirty needles, and unproved allegations about money raised. But religion is not the topic, although there are certainly some who seem to think it is.

- Susan




Rule -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 1:32:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I am not interested in discussing this with you

There is no purpose served in discussing anything with you, since you lack the ability to perceive truth and since you cannot think outside the narrow box that you are confined to. You fail at critical thinking, or do so in a very limited way only.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
you cite only your own opinion, at the expense of any data from another source.

Oh, but I did pay attention to the data that you provided, my dear. It is thanks to your arguments mostly that I concluded that T had sadistic personality disorder. (I do not think that it is correct to call this condition a disorder. She was other than other people, being a vulture, but that is not a disorder but a natural condition; it is not a disease.)
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
You have yet, to cite one source, in a thread over 16 pages long, that supports your POV in any objective sense.

You are my source, and DK and Level and perhaps some others that have posted data in this thread.
 
And I did gather some data about psychopathy and sadistic personality disorder.




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 1:33:30 AM)

This is the same old, same old from you, Rule. In that case, maybe you are a vulture as well. I smell sour grapes. And that is certainly a fringe, if not deranged, POV, IMO. You seem to have elevated being obtuse to an artform in many of your posts. I can only conclude you have some arrogant idea, possibly a Naricissistic Personality Disorder, that makes you believe you yourself have no need to expound on your POV indicating how it connects to devaluing a lifetime of work with the poor and dying. And more importantly, proves these people were abused, or worse off for her intervention, instead of better off.

You have in no way proved these people were not helped, or that they were abused, and certainly not on any systemic basis. Been there, done that, Rule. On the other hand, there is quite a bit of evidence to prove they were helped, despite minor screw-ups, or even possibly major ones.

You simply like to toy with guessing at someone's motives. Well. Join the club re: The other authors out there who seem intent on destroying her rep. Write your own book on that, or something. Maybe you'll be able to make some money with it. 

Re: Your "data". I asked you a question about proving she was a Psychopathic Sadist - and you coyly pretended to not understand what I meant (when I know you are perfectly capable of understanding what I meant).

So I stopped discussing that. I said well - if you're going to go in that direction, then prove it also was not consensual with her (supposed) victims -which is the standard for a Psychopath. And you just blew me off. We have not got much to discuss, from my POV. Seems as if we will have to agree to disagree.

- Susan




SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 2:46:32 AM)

This is something else I found on the Internet. Re: Mother Theresa - For those who insist on linking this thread to religion. But to me, they are inspirational even without being connected to religion.
Paradoxical People
Living the Paradoxical Life


Categories
About the Author
Origin of the Paradoxical Commandments
Paradoxical Commandments
The Mother Teresa Connection
The Universal Moral Code


    February 13, 2006

    The Mother Teresa Connection


    The Paradoxical Commandments were written by Kent M. Keith when he was 19, a sophomore at Harvard College. He wrote them as part of a book for student leaders entitled The Silent Revolution: Dynamic Leadership in the Student Council, published by Harvard Student Agencies in 1968. The Paradoxical Commandments subsequently spread all over the world, and have been used by millions of people.

    Mother Teresa, or one of her co-workers, put the Paradoxical Commandments up on the wall of Mother Teresa's children's home in Calcutta. That fact was reported in a book compiled by Lucinda Vardey, Mother Teresa: A Simple Path, which was published in 1995. As a result, some people have attributed the Paradoxical Commandments to Mother Teresa.
    As Kent explains in his book, Do It Anyway: The Handbook for Finding Personal Meaning and Deep Happiness in a Crazy World:

    "Mother Teresa, or one of her coworkers, thought that the Paradoxical Commandments were important enough to put up on the wall at their children's home, to look at, day after day, as they ministered to the children. That really hit me. I wanted to laugh, and cry, and shout–and I was getting chills up and down my spine. Perhaps it hit me hard because I had a lot of respect for Mother Teresa, and perhaps because I knew something about children's homes. Whatever the reason, it had a huge impact on me. That was when I decided to speak and write about the Paradoxical Commandments again, thirty years after I first wrote them."



    What was on Mother Teresa’s Wall?


    I published and copyrighted “The Paradoxical Commandments” as part of a booklet for student leaders in 1968. Unknown to me, the commandments subsequently spread around the world. The discovery that changed my life was the discovery that Mother Teresa had put the Paradoxical Commandments on the wall of her children’s home in Calcutta. I learned that in 1997.
    But what exactly was on Mother Teresa’s wall? I am certain that was not the “Final Analysis” version of the commandments that has been circulating on websites under her name. That is important to me, because the “Final Analysis” version can be read in a way that is inconsistent with Christian teachings and the message of the Paradoxical Commandments themselves.
    According to Lucinda Vardey, in Mother Teresa: A Simple Path (New York: Ballantine Books, 1995), page 185, there was “a sign on the wall of Shishu Bhavan, the children’s home in Calcutta.” This is what the sign said:
     
    ANYWAY
    People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered,
    LOVE THEM ANYWAY
    ***If you do good, people will accuse you of
    selfish, ulterior motives,
    DO GOOD ANYWAY
    If you are successful,
    you win false friends and true enemies,
    SUCCEED ANYWAY
    The good you do will be forgotten tomorrow,
    DO GOOD ANYWAY
    Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable,
    BE HONEST AND FRANK ANYWAY
    What you spent years building may be
    destroyed overnight,
    BUILD ANYWAY
    People really need help
    but may attack you if you help them,
    HELP PEOPLE ANYWAY
    Give the world the best you have
    And you’ll get kicked in the teeth,
    GIVE THE WORLD THE BEST YOU’VE GOT ANYWAY.




    SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:28:41 AM)

    Guess that kinda shoots the Sadistic theory down (at least is does for me). For me, her being a Psychopath is never an idea I'd ever take even halfway seriously, geven what I've read about her life and work and motives.

    Her intent was clearly not to hurt the poor and dying, but to try and help them.

    Whether or not anyone wants to believe she hurt any of those she claimed to help, and intentionally, sans lots of evidence to the contrary, about her motives, and their value, or the level of her success, is up to them, I guess.  

    - Susan




    Rule -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:32:17 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SusanofO
    If you don't like those sources, then you have access to the Internet and can do your own research. If you simply can't bother to read this thread, then I have not much to say.

    It is my impression that DK did a fair bit of research and he certainly has bothered to read this thread.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
    I Kid...but goddamn it...![:D] 

    Subs like her can drive someone to despair. I understand her nature and both its limitations and strong points, though, so I can accept her.

     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SusanofO
    rude from the get go.

    It is noticeable that so many things that you reproach other people about, instead so much better apply to yourself. I know that you are sensitive about the perceived behaviour of other people, but you are completely unaware of your own transgressions and crash behaviour.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SusanofO
    I guess I just find it rather dis-heartening that supposedly Domly Doms dont have better judgment (or manners)

    I expect DDs to have judgmental abilities similar to those of subs like yourself, but to do have better manners. (There will be variations, and perhaps exceptions, but I have not studied the subject in depth, so I regrettably can only make een generalizing statement.)




    SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:37:06 AM)

    Well Rule, thanks for the heads-up. And I am sorry if I bitched at SugarMyChurro, or DomKen. Maybe it was mean -I was just ticked off. I don't want to turn this into a bitch fest re: Particular posters that could go gonna go on for the next 10 pages. I am perfectly capable of defending myself, if someone insists on "going there". But after all of this, I'd really rather not. I just wanted to highlight what I view as Mother Theresa's accomplishments and shed some light on what I certainly view as her motives, via citing some source posts or two. 

    - Susan




    meatcleaver -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:38:39 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SusanofO

    Well if someone isn't religious than they might indeed find it amusing, I imagine. As for anyone's anti-religious POV: Piffle. This means someone's work is worth nothing? Athieists bore me to tears, and I find their arrogance astounding. Agnosticism I can handle. I find true bona-fide Atheism at least as much of a joke as any fundamentalist, fire-and-brimstone Christianity. Like I said, guess I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist. However, I will say: Where are all of those beautiful Cathedrals built by Atheists? Where are all of the charities they've supported - as a group effort? I haven't seen any.

    However, I think it takes some gall for anyone to dimiss the objective value of, or make light of a life that obviously helped so many, on the basis of hearsay, a few dirty needles, and unproved allegations about money raised. But religion is not the topic, although there are certainly some who seem to think it is.

    - Susan


    It doesn't mean that someone's work is worth nothing, it means it is has nothing to do with any other worldly design but their own superstitions and motives, whether they are good or bad.

    As for Cathedrals being built by atheists or not, one can't say they were built by religious people because if someone declared they were atheist they would have been subject to torture and execution by burning. (LOL. Now there is religion for you!) What can be said is that many were built by materialistic and ambitious men that impoverished their communities through exploitation to build such monuments.

    There are many examples of gargoyles shitting on all who enter the Cathedral. There are many explanations for these but one explanation is that the work load put on the stone masons with little reward in terms of pay and were done out of mischief. Who knows if it is true but workers were definitely exploited and people were crucified under the burden of heavy taxation to build these monuments which were monuments to the power of the church and not god.

    As for atheists boring you, religious people often get bored at being asked for evidence they know that they can't produce if they lived to be a thousand.




    SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:40:33 AM)

    meatcleaver: That's why religions are sometimes referred to as Faiths, I believe, yes. Atheists seem to have a supreme faith in their own cognitive abilites, and the idea that the human brain (which wieghs 3 pounds, tops) is even equipped to figure out things like why we are here, when there are maybe 12 dimensions (supposedly maybe perceived by science, thus far, if you believe in Quantum theory as perceived buy some scientists) and yet humans can only perceive 4 of them.

    To me, these discoveries point to a few limitations in many humans' ability to have that "all figured out" as far as there being no other powerful force at play in the universe, and seems to indicate some higher power is at work in the creation of the universe. If you wanna believe differently, fine with me.

    But I am not discussing it at any more length than that, because that sums up my POV in a nutshell. If you don't think I've heard or read any other arguments for and against the existence of God, you could not be more wrong. As for the existence of God equating with anyone's particular religious beliefs, and terrible or great things done in a particular religion's name -IMO those are 2 entirely different issues. 

    It probably means that if one is an Atheist. However, as far as I can tell, the perceived value of anyone's religion is not the topic (at least not to me). And I don't intend to make it the topic. I was just answering you. But I ain't gonna do it twice. I am sincerely not trying to be rude, but I have been around the "value of religion" block about a hundred times, and already know where I stand on the issue. I can appreciate your right to voice your POV. But that is the only reason I brought it up at all - because you did first.

    - Susan




    bandit25 -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:42:54 AM)

    Susan, as I am sure you are aware, there a phrase at the bottom of the post that says "in reply to ________".  I specifically asked if your posts (the ones that followed mine) were addressed to me.  You never answered so I guess yes, I did ASSUME they were, especially when you put bandit25 in the post.  You may need the reality check.  So the post went in a direction you didn't or don't like...happens all the time. 




    meatcleaver -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:47:19 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SusanofO

    meatcleaver: Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. It probably means that if one is an Atheist. However, as far as I can tell, the perceived value of anyone's religion is not the topic (at least not to me). And I don't intend to make it the topic. I was just answering you. But I ain't gonna do it twice. 

    - Susan


    Atheists are generally rationalists and only consider themselves provisionally atheist while waiting for evidence to be produced of a supernatural power or being.  Obviously, no evidence is going to be produced this side of the grave.

    Mother T obviously had her own agenda, ideas and ambitions.




    SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:49:04 AM)

    bandit25: My sincere apologies. Hope this misunderstanding can somehow be overcome.

    - Susan




    SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:50:52 AM)

    meatcleaver: I understand, but - I am just -
    Not gonna go there. Read this thread. The whole, entire thread. Start on page 1. Call me back when done. Maybe then, I'd have more to say.

    -Susan




    bandit25 -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 3:53:47 AM)

    No big.  When we are passionate about something we get caught up in it sometimes, at least I know that I do.  You were replying to a lot of people at once.  Plus...stress is a bitch!  Have a good one.




    SusanofO -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 4:08:04 AM)

    bandit25: Thanks, And I really am sorry.
    - Susan




    Level -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 4:21:43 AM)

    *smiles at the two ladies*
     
    Best two  posts of the whole thread.




    bandit25 -> RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul (8/28/2007 4:23:43 AM)

    We love you too cutie.  Now get to work!  Smooch




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