RE: SLAVES VS SUBS

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 1:35:03 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

I think there is a difference, too, between a choice and a consequence. I can certainly choose to obey or to disobey. The consequence of that choice is the price I have to pay for that choice.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Profile

Post #: 41

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 1:42:48 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Aww, thank you. The clarification is much more in aligns with my own definition.

I wasnt so much trying to be argumentative, but rather point out the misconception that often comes with that personal definition.

I didn't see it as argumentative at all.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Profile

Post #: 42

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 1:50:35 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I think there is a difference, too, between a choice and a consequence. I can certainly choose to obey or to disobey. The consequence of that choice is the price I have to pay for that choice.

Celeste

And there is a difference between whether a sub disobeys and a slave who disobeys (again, using the terminology according to my understanding of it).

A sub can disobey and escape consequences if she chooses. It is merely viewed as an extension of the negotiations that led to the relationship (this is assuming her dom agrees to this).

A slave who disobeys can face much sharper consequences, including an end to the relationship if the infraction is egregious enough.

For a slave to disobey, it is as if she were saying she's quit being a slave. If the infraction is small, it may be handled in many ways aside from terminating the relationship. But if it is over a matter deemed essential by her master ...

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 8/25/2007 1:51:48 PM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Profile

Post #: 43

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 2:03:46 PM

kikinymph

Posts: 40
Joined: 8/19/2007
Status: offline

When this came up around our place...cuz it did and needed to be understood where everyone's thoughts were...this is the definition that I gave.

MY THEORETICAL IDEAL DEFINITION OF A SLAVE:
A slave is a person who can, or will, give up any prior committments that they have in order to be in service to the Owner. This is including committments to job/career, children, spouses, family.

I am not willing to NOT be a mother to my children so, I can not be a slave. Just my definition. However, since I am owned--and that is in the not ever gonna be released kinda way--then it doesn't make any difference what anyone else calls me-- Guarddawg calls me "His" "Precious", and "Pet". So, to me, if you are happy with whatever you are called--or call--then *shrug* so be it!

Kiki

_____________________________

"That which yields is not always weak." Kushiel series by Jacqueline Carey

(in reply to slaveish)

Profile

Post #: 44

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 2:11:00 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kikinymph

When this came up around our place...cuz it did and needed to be understood where everyone's thoughts were...this is the definition that I gave.

MY THEORETICAL IDEAL DEFINITION OF A SLAVE:
A slave is a person who can, or will, give up any prior committments that they have in order to be in service to the Owner. This is including committments to job/career, children, spouses, family.

I am not willing to NOT be a mother to my children so, I can not be a slave. Just my definition. However, since I am owned--and that is in the not ever gonna be released kinda way--then it doesn't make any difference what anyone else calls me-- Guarddawg calls me "His" "Precious", and "Pet". So, to me, if you are happy with whatever you are called--or call--then *shrug* so be it!

Kiki

That spells it out -very- clearly.

I wonder how many "slaves" are scrambling to change their profiles?

There was a time when being a slave was a distinction, and there were precious few of them.

But ooooh to own one

(in reply to kikinymph)

Profile

Post #: 45

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 2:19:06 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I think I can only define what it means for 'me' to be submissive and what it means for 'me' to be a slave.

As a submissive, I retained the ability to walk out any door at any time without detriment to my mental health or worry about being untrue to my own nature. As a slave, I have lost the ability to walk out the door without having to put on a mask and be someone different rather than the unique individual that my slavery allows me to be. It's not a matter of 'choice' on whether to leave or stay. I make a choice every moment of every day to be true to who I am.

I guess, simply put, when I identified as a submissive it was because of my ability to be a submissive. Now, I identify as a slave because of my inability to be anything else.

Celeste

Brilliantly put, and I agree completely.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Profile

Post #: 46

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 2:42:27 PM

WhiplashSmile

Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline

What are we comparing here? Gorean Slaves, Old Guard Slaves, Geisha Girls, Asian style concubines, Eurpean style concubines, DomiGuy Slaves... So many labels, similar yet somehow different.

Now some people want service House work slaves (no sex), some want sex slaves (sex no housework), Some want torture slaves (no sex or housework involved)...

So many differenent meanings and expectations people have for what Kind of Slave or what a slave is to them.

What's the difference, it's all in how we look at it.

A submissive in a TPE (total power exchange) relationship, I would say without a doubt in the back of my mind is a Slave without question. However, some people are slaves without full TPE going on. Because of how the define their own labels and have worked out BDSM to their own tastes.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Profile

Post #: 47

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 2:50:55 PM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

I'm just posting because I lust for and covet the handcuffs! Not to mention I am horrified to see "Newbie" nestled beside my name.

In the strictest sense of the words; Slave is a noun (or in some cases a verb). Submissive is an adjective. I know people use the term submissive as a noun, and I tend to think of them in that sense as well. But, that's the point. While the word is meant to be a modifier to a noun, in the context of BDSM - it takes on whatever meaning the individual(s) ascribe to it. Just as the term slave does.

Personally, from my experience, I had a hard time coming to terms with the concept of "slave" when I was one. It held such horrible and negative connotations in my mind, that I could not come to terms with it for myself. I see a very large distinction (in my own mind - related to me personally) between the two. Though I know and respect several individuals who do not distinguish between the two and they are content and thriving in their relationships living their roles as they have defined them.

Damn. I still have massive amounts of posting to do - to win the coveted handcuffs. I'm not even lusting after the paddles yet. Keeping my goals realistic you know.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Profile

Post #: 48

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 3:04:19 PM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

I knew there was a reason I used to have wet dreams about feastie...

ghita~

damn, did I say that outloud?

What, was it a secret?

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Profile

Post #: 49

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 3:34:33 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I'm just posting because I lust for and covet the handcuffs! Not to mention I am horrified to see "Newbie" nestled beside my name.

In the strictest sense of the words; Slave is a noun (or in some cases a verb). Submissive is an adjective. I know people use the term submissive as a noun, and I tend to think of them in that sense as well. But, that's the point. While the word is meant to be a modifier to a noun, in the context of BDSM - it takes on whatever meaning the individual(s) ascribe to it. Just as the term slave does.

"Submissive" is the short-hand version of "submissive male" or "submissive female".

True, a lot of people treat it as a noun, but I really doubt anyone said "Hey, they're using submissive as a noun, so I'll use submissive to mean slave".

Back in the day there used to be a ton of arguments over who was more "true" to bdsm: those who were submissive or those who were slave.

The part-timers (subs) used to tear strips off the full-timers (slaves), mostly because the part-timers were part-time while the full-timers were committed to it 24/7.

Apparently the resolution of those arguments was the colonization of the word "slave" by the subs.

So now there is no distinction made between the two, and subs can claim they are just as committed as slaves because the terms don't mean anything anymore.

A pity for those of us who seek the 24/7 variety, as now we have to go through far more people to find those who are 24/7 as opposed to part-time.

Not that I blame anyone today for this. No doubt many who use the term "slave" are not aware there ever was a distinction.

But creating confusion so as to soothe egos seems to me to be a poor excuse for the loss of such a useful word as "slave".

YMMV

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Profile

Post #: 50

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 3:49:00 PM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Original: Bobkgin
"Submissive" is the short-hand version of "submissive male" or "submissive female".

True, a lot of people treat it as a noun, but I really doubt anyone said "Hey, they're using submissive as a noun, so I'll use submissive to mean slave".

Back in the day there used to be a ton of arguments over who was more "true" to bdsm: those who were submissive or those who were slave.

The part-timers (subs) used to tear strips off the full-timers (slaves), mostly because the part-timers were part-time while the full-timers were committed to it 24/7.

Apparently the resolution of those arguments was the colonization of the word "slave" by the subs.

So now there is no distinction made between the two, and subs can claim they are just as committed as slaves because the terms don't mean anything anymore.

A pity for those of us who seek the 24/7 variety, as now we have to go through far more people to find those who are 24/7 as opposed to part-time.

Not that I blame anyone today for this. No doubt many who use the term "slave" are not aware there ever was a distinction.

But creating confusion so as to soothe egos seems to me to be a poor excuse for the loss of such a useful word as "slave".

In some cases that may be correct, however (and I've used this analogy before) to claim it is true universally is like saying "All black people like watermelon and chicken." It is rather ludicrous to imply that such is the case.

For many..MANY individuals there is a strong distinction. I myself consider there to be a distinction. For many ...MANY there isn't.

It still boils down to how each person defines thier own relationship.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Profile

Post #: 51

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 4:07:13 PM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

Bobkgin: I understand your plight, regarding your search for someone who is looking for a committed full-time position and how frustrating it must be to dredge through the many profiles trying to find those who fit your criteria. I don't think this can be attributed to whether someone calls themselves a slave or sub though. You consider a slave someone who will commit 24/7 but why then do you care if they call themselves sub's or not? By your own definition, if they are willing to make a 24/7 commitment they are slaves (Not that I'm subscribing to your definition.)

Just curious.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Profile

Post #: 52

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 4:09:47 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

quote:

Original: Bobkgin
"Submissive" is the short-hand version of "submissive male" or "submissive female".

True, a lot of people treat it as a noun, but I really doubt anyone said "Hey, they're using submissive as a noun, so I'll use submissive to mean slave".

Back in the day there used to be a ton of arguments over who was more "true" to bdsm: those who were submissive or those who were slave.

The part-timers (subs) used to tear strips off the full-timers (slaves), mostly because the part-timers were part-time while the full-timers were committed to it 24/7.

Apparently the resolution of those arguments was the colonization of the word "slave" by the subs.

So now there is no distinction made between the two, and subs can claim they are just as committed as slaves because the terms don't mean anything anymore.

A pity for those of us who seek the 24/7 variety, as now we have to go through far more people to find those who are 24/7 as opposed to part-time.

Not that I blame anyone today for this. No doubt many who use the term "slave" are not aware there ever was a distinction.

But creating confusion so as to soothe egos seems to me to be a poor excuse for the loss of such a useful word as "slave".

In some cases that may be correct, however (and I've used this analogy before) to claim it is true universally is like saying "All black people like watermelon and chicken." It is rather ludicrous to imply that such is the case.

For many..MANY individuals there is a strong distinction. I myself consider there to be a distinction. For many ...MANY there isn't.

It still boils down to how each person defines thier own relationship.

I've no argument over that. Times change and useful words get lost.

But whereas there was a time when I could look at a list of ten or fifteen slaves and know what they mean by that, I now have to sort through some 2000 people because "sub" might mean "slave" and "slave" might mean "sub".

In other words, I waste a lot more time trying to figure out who is a "slave" (my definition) and who isn't.

And I waste a lot of other people's time with notes I'd never have sent them were it clear they are part-timers and not full-timers.

All because a few subs many, many years ago didn't like being considered "bdsm-lite".

It is interesting, having been a part of those arguments way back when, to see how they resolved themselves after I left.

In some cases, there is success (I see far more people treating submission as a gift, which was back then a real boon for those whose self-esteem was constantly eroded by insensitive, selfish wannabes). Even the fact there are so few cyber-bullies compared to then is a marked improvement.

But to have lost the meaning for the word "slave" along the way ...

Oh, well. These things happen, I guess.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Profile

Post #: 53

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 4:28:17 PM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

I'm totally an advocate for change, if it means less cyber bullies - but I'm not so sure that there are fewer now than "then". Just confident it isn't worth the effort to debate the case, I guess.

In some aspects, I do understand the message you are conveying and can relate to the nostalgia you face - I just don't particularly subscribe to it.

Good luck in your search. Everyone who needs a significant partner to share their life with should be blessed with one.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Profile

Post #: 54

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 4:40:55 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Bobkgin: I understand your plight, regarding your search for someone who is looking for a committed full-time position and how frustrating it must be to dredge through the many profiles trying to find those who fit your criteria. I don't think this can be attributed to whether someone calls themselves a slave or sub though. You consider a slave someone who will commit 24/7 but why then do you care if they call themselves sub's or not? By your own definition, if they are willing to make a 24/7 commitment they are slaves (Not that I'm subscribing to your definition.)

Just curious.

Well, actually, that's what I've been doing: looking for those tell-tale signs that point towards a "slave" (my definition).

Unfortunately not everyone's profile cooperates. There are a lot of people who fall in between the definitions, based on their profile.

So I have to do a lot of guesstimating: are they close enough that they might be "slaves".

I'm not trying to suggest this is a problem unique to me. I'm sure there are many people who have to do this sort of thing to find someone right for them.

It's just that I remember when this wasn't such a problem.

When I advertised for my wife over ten years ago, I used the term "slave" and she understood its meaning when she read it. Simplified the search process immensely.

It's a bit like waking up from suspended animation, I suppose.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Profile

Post #: 55

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 4:44:23 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I'm totally an advocate for change, if it means less cyber bullies - but I'm not so sure that there are fewer now than "then". Just confident it isn't worth the effort to debate the case, I guess.

In some aspects, I do understand the message you are conveying and can relate to the nostalgia you face - I just don't particularly subscribe to it.

Good luck in your search. Everyone who needs a significant partner to share their life with should be blessed with one.

Thank you, Winsome.

Fossils like me can use all the good wishes we can get.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Profile

Post #: 56

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/25/2007 11:33:52 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

What's the difference between a submissive and a slave? "Brother, if you have to ask ... you'll never know." -- Louis Armstrong's answer when an interviewer asked him to define jazz. Or, in the words of (former Supreme Court Justice) Potter Stewart, "It's like pornography - you know it when you see it." Here's how i look at it: i do what i am, i am what i do...... i submit, obediently, to my Master -- i am a submissive slave i submit, obediently, to my Dominant partner/mate -- i am a submissive partner/mate i submit, obediently, to my Dominant boyfriend -- i am a submissive girlfriend i submit, obediently, to my Dominant husband -- i am a submissive wife i submit, obediently, to my Dominant employer/boss -- i am a submissive employee/worker i live my life according to what feels right to me and what feels right to me, is being submissive, not to everyone but, to anyone i choose to be Dominant over me. i chose to be an owned slave, rather than a submissive partner/girlfriend/etc. because i wanted the Dominant man, that i belong to, to have more control over my life than i had ever received from any of the Dominant men i had been involved with before. i wanted to belong to a Master, who would own me and take control of my life. So, i put myself on the "slave auction block" and found myself a Master who would take ownership of me. He took charge of my life, just as i wanted. i am still every bit as submissive, not more so, as i was before i was an owned slave. The difference, for me, is that the man i am submitting to now has more control over my life. It is 24/7 control and it is absolute. Before i became a slave, i always did what i was told but, only when i was told, the rest of the time i was my own person, and, for the most part, i was only told what to do for strictly sexual D/s and nothing else. Now, my submission is more than sexual and it is all the time. Everything about my life is under the control of my Master 24/7 and it covers everything from my sexual activity, including when i orgasm and who i have sex with, to what i wear and how i do my make-up to what and how much i eat and drink to when i use the bathroom to when i go to bed and so on. No, my Master doesn't micromanage me. He doesn't need to. He set down the rules once and i have lived by them ever since. He doesn't need to repeat Himself or continually monitor me, because i know what i am supposed to do and i just do it. Also, i have plenty of choices but, they are choices that are allowed by my Master. This is my reality. It's different for everyone. Just like marriage is different for everyone and pretty much every other situation is different for everyone. slave joyOwned property of Master David "Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBWMistressAngel

I wonder what everone's take is on the differences between the 2 .. For me I believe that SLAVE's have submitted to have NO CHOICE .. where as SUB's are always within their rights to CHOOSE .. so .. what do you think????

Mistress A ~

< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 8/26/2007 12:04:36 AM >

(in reply to BBWMistressAngel)

Profile

Post #: 57

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 12:00:28 AM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBWMistressAngel

I wonder what everone's take is on the differences between the 2 .. For me I believe that SLAVE's have submitted to have NO CHOICE .. where as SUB's are always within their rights to CHOOSE .. so .. what do you think????

This lifestyle's consentual. But, outside of being able to leave and withdraw consent, basically, yeah.

I notice Master/Mistress-types are far more likely to define a "slave" as a TPE-sub. (Not criticism- I use the same definition.) Many more submissives subs, though, will call themselves non-TPE slaves. Hell, some lessly submissive subs, even bottoms, call themselve slaves.

But, hey. For M/s? Sure. "slave" = TPE-sub when I use the word in general.

(in reply to BBWMistressAngel)

Profile

Post #: 58

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 12:10:28 AM

awmslave

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline

Almost everything has been said in previous posts. Personally I would prefer if slave and submissive were not used inter-changeably. The last is often the case. BDSM theorists have covered the topic extensively
(e.g. www.steel-door.com/Submissive_vs_Slave.html).
It would be nice if Masters require good and precise language use from their slaves or submissives.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Profile

Post #: 59

RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 12:19:33 AM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

I've seen more than a few subs display a great deal of venom at the suggestion that one must be virtually without limits to be a slave.

It's pleasant to see things such as:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kikinymph

I am not willing to NOT be a mother to my children so, I can not be a slave.

I haven't read through most of this thread yet (tired eyes), though I'm quite surprised to see a lack of flaming in the parts I have looked at. When I last saw this topic debated, probably six months or so back now, it seemed to step on far more toes.

(in reply to awmslave)

Profile

Post #: 60