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RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:04:19 PM   
Cyntilating


Posts: 581
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline 		...............did someone say there was pizza????
 


_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:05:29 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I doubt anyone's yet provided a definition for slave yet where conscentuality wasn't either in it or assumed.  This said, I took it to be, "Oh, wow, a relationship where the slave can have limits and refuse the Master."

To me..
-A slave follows her Master's orders.
-She can not refuse consent to a particular action.
-She can refuse consent to the general arrangement at any time.
-If this withdrawl of consent is not recognized, then the former "Master" is criminally acting outside of the dynamic.

This is to say, a Master tells his slave to.. eat a pizza.  (Or anything else.)  The slave truly hates pizza with everything in her being.  She can not say, "No, I won't eat the pizza, but I'm still your slave"; she can say, "I'm no longer your slave" (and she wouldn't have to eat the pizza).

If she does say this- the dynamic is broken.  The Master is no longer a Master, the slave is no longer a slave.  They make reconcile is later, and try to fix things, but they're simply not these things at this point.  If the former Master tries to force the slave to eat the pizza still, he's acting as a vanilla person forcing another vanilla person to eat pizza.  In the absense of the dynamic, he doesn't have this right (barring extraordinary circumstances, such as the former slave's life would be saved by eatting pizza), and he's acting criminally.

In short, there are no "No"s in the M/s relationship.  The slave -can- say "No".. just, once she does, there's no more M/s relationship.


Well said.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:08:36 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Yeah, I thought of that as I was changing my sheets.  I was just curious how much verbal manuvering has to be done to avoid those two letters appearing together.  I am sure like most things, it would become second nature to a personn who practices it all the time.

In our relationship, the word no is not off limits.  What is not allowed is refusing to do his will, no matter what letters are used to exhibit that refusal. 

Then another thought comes to mind... the word no is off limits, so master says "slave do X" and slave says, "fat chance of that happening" and then doesn't do it.  They didn't use the letters n and o, but an order was refused.... 

Just Sunday afternoon musings  *eg*

Knight's Kyra


As someone who stinks at spelling, it would probably take me forever to get into the habit just because I wouldn't know when the letters appear together.


Seems a little silly to suggest that the inability of a slave to refuse her master's instruction somehow translates into not being able to say "no" to a question where the correct response would be a "no".

Context is everything.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:10:43 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

If a slave says 'no' she actually means it,
Wow - A slave with permission to say 'no'! I'm stunned.


How liberal!  Perhaps this community should take a turn for equal rights?  slaves can order Masters around half of the time?  subs can put Dom's over their knee and spank them for being naughty little Dom's?


I took what she said very differently but am waiting for clarification.  But, the way I read it is that a slave only says 'no' (resists or whatever form 'no' takes) as a matter of survival, when the consequences of compliance would involve a danger to the slaves well-being. 



She should certainly mean "no" if she says it.

However, by saying "no", she is saying she doesn't trust her master's judgment.

If that is the case, she shouldn't be serving him as a slave (probably not as a sub either).


It is extremely important to have well established meanings for every act and type of  person that you might meet...It is so refreshing not to have to engage in any form of converstion to realize where exactly someone's interests might lie....Besides who's to say that one man's sub might be another man's slave...I think the whole terminology is rather meaningless....It's for people with to much time on their hands to hash over.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:13:07 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Seems a little silly to suggest that the inability of a slave to refuse her master's instruction somehow translates into not being able to say "no" to a question where the correct response would be a "no".

Context is everything.



Maybe if you didn't have Mercnbeth blocked you would understand the context of this discussion and that our comments are entirely appropriate.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:24:39 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

 
The "bartering" or, rather, the discussion of wants/needs/requirements of my Master and i came before i made my decision to become His slave.  The rules, that i would be required to live by, were set by my Master and understood and agreed to by me, before i accepted my His collar and became His slave.  If He had required that i give up all connections to family and friends, negotiations would have ceased between Uus.  The mere suggestion of that would have been a red flag to me, that this is not someone i would respect or trust and, without those two qualities being present, i would not be interested in serving.



I wanted to highlight this because it has not come up in the discussion till this point.

It is critically vital that the process that leads to a choice to be a slave involves a -lot- of discussion.

It is not enough to negotiate terms. There must also be compatibility when it comes to ethics and morals. Considering what is at stake, any and all concerns should be addressed before the decision is made (assuming that red flags don't end the process along the way).

There are some who would be slave who have almost no essential contacts with the vanilla world. They are just so different from others that these relationships are easily dispensed with.

On the other hand, there are others, such as SlaveJoy, who value these relationships and will not part with them.

Some masters will accept those limitations to their authority, others won't.

This is why discussion is essential: so all involved can make informed decisions.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:26:54 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Maybe if you didn't have Mercnbeth blocked you would understand the context of this discussion and that our comments are entirely appropriate.

Knight's Kyra


Sounds like I missed some forum drama.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:29:58 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Maybe if you didn't have Mercnbeth blocked you would understand the context of this discussion and that our comments are entirely appropriate.

Knight's Kyra


Sounds like I missed some forum drama.


Aahhh, thank you for that, 'cause I think I am in the block section too; it's pretty crowded in here lately.  LOL

You mean you missed the whole "decline of collarme"?  It was good while it lasted  *g*

Knight's Kyra

*edited to add link

< Message edited by kyraofMists -- 8/26/2007 5:31:36 PM >

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:30:41 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Maybe if you didn't have Mercnbeth blocked you would understand the context of this discussion and that our comments are entirely appropriate.

Knight's Kyra


Sounds like I missed some forum drama.


Indeed.

I've blocked the bullies and they're miffed. Check "the decline of collarme" thread for details.

Shall we get back to the topic?


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:35:30 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
Shall we get back to the topic?



We were somewhat on topic (at least where the conversation was naturally leading) discussing being a slave and not using the letters "n" and "o" together.  It was your inability to comprehend the full context of things that led it to a discussion of your blocking fetish, so thanks for the hijack, bob.

Knight's Kyra

< Message edited by kyraofMists -- 8/26/2007 5:36:11 PM >

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:39:18 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

I can assure you, it's quite realistic in that I've had such relationships and currently maintain one.


I'm sure you have.  But, the ad hoc provision that allows you to step out of the dynamic every time your slave says 'no' or something similar, then back in may well be the reason they're realisitic.  Basically, what you are saying is that you can suspend the dynamic as necessary to accomodate the slaves 'no.' 

quote:

I am unsure, though.. what would a slave have to say "No" to, assuming a mature Master and a truly submissive slave?


I could probably think of a couple dozen situations in which a 'truly submissive slave' might have good reason to say 'no' to a 'mature' Master.  The first that come to mind are those where something really bad, something unforeseen by the Master, would happen if his wishes were acted upon.  I'm assuming that in addition to being mature, the Master is also human and might make a mistake.  If a Master wanted the slave to do something that would jepordize the life not of his or her self, but of the Master, wouldn't it be her duty to disobey even at the risk of punishment or incurring the displeasure of the Master should he survive?  Would it really be any service to the Master to say 'yes, sir, right away sir!  And would you like me to kiss your dead ass when I'm done, sir?'? Of course not.  Obedience in such a situation might win that slave brownie points in some 'truely submissive slave' heaven, but on this earth, the only result would be tragic.

The above is an extreme example and not likely to be an issue in everyday interactions.  If Master calls the slave and tells her to be somewhere at 10:00 and the slave says no, my um is sick and can't go to school so I have to stay home, does that undermine the M/s dynamic?  Is she any less a slave in that moment?  Presumambly, assuming maturity on the part of the Master, they've discussed priorities and the Master does allow the slave to say 'no' in such situations. 

Or, if Master and slave are doing a routine sm session, and the slave unexpectedly has some kind of trouble: Master orders slave to kneel or get in whatever position to take a flogging, and slave says, 'no, I can't.'  They stop, figure out what's going on, and then decide whether or not to continue.  Again, is this somehow a break with the Master/slave dynamic in which they become two vanilla people trying to deal with a problem?  No, because two vanilla people, by definition, wouldn't have a problem in the middle of a session because they wouldn't be sessioning.  Perhaps you might say they become Top and bottom, but, in my mind, that would move us in the direction of ptolemaic astronomy with its retrogressions and all that.  I say they are still Master and slave, and the slave says no, as a slave, even a 'truly subissive' one because if she continues, something really bad might happen.  And the Master, being mature, deals with it as a Master without any thought to the integrity of their M/s dynamic because thats the last thing on his or her mind.  Being the 'mature' Master that he or she is, his or her first concern in that moment is the well-being of his slave.

Those are just some possible scenarios in which a slave might have to say no to a mature Master without undermining the M/s dynamic.

quote:

I'm afraid that the subject tends to drift to more specific aspects by page five of a thread.


True enough.  But you responded in a sarcastic manner to a poster who was, in fact, explicitly addressing the thread topic.  And, as I indicated in my original comment to you, you might have misunderstood the comment you were treating sarcastically.  So, I think it reasonable to expect that your defense of your comment would have something to do with the original topic of discussion which was the sub slave distinction.

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 8/26/2007 5:55:47 PM >

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:40:38 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

 
The "bartering" or, rather, the discussion of wants/needs/requirements of my Master and i came before i made my decision to become His slave.  The rules, that i would be required to live by, were set by my Master and understood and agreed to by me, before i accepted my His collar and became His slave.  If He had required that i give up all connections to family and friends, negotiations would have ceased between Uus.  The mere suggestion of that would have been a red flag to me, that this is not someone i would respect or trust and, without those two qualities being present, i would not be interested in serving.



I wanted to highlight this because it has not come up in the discussion till this point.

It is critically vital that the process that leads to a choice to be a slave involves a -lot- of discussion.

It is not enough to negotiate terms. There must also be compatibility when it comes to ethics and morals. Considering what is at stake, any and all concerns should be addressed before the decision is made (assuming that red flags don't end the process along the way).

There are some who would be slave who have almost no essential contacts with the vanilla world. They are just so different from others that these relationships are easily dispensed with.

On the other hand, there are others, such as SlaveJoy, who value these relationships and will not part with them.

Some masters will accept those limitations to their authority, others won't.

This is why discussion is essential: so all involved can make informed decisions.


And, my unwillingness to disconnect from all family and friends, in order to enter into slavery, doesn't "disqualify" me from being a slave, as was asserted earlier in this thread? (http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1232796)
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David
 
"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."
 

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:45:11 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Maybe if you didn't have Mercnbeth blocked you would understand the context of this discussion and that our comments are entirely appropriate.

Knight's Kyra


Sounds like I missed some forum drama.


Indeed.

I've blocked the bullies and they're miffed. Check "the decline of collarme" thread for details.

Shall we get back to the topic?



Mercnbeth? Bullies? You are kidding right?

From what I've seen of their posts and talking to them on the other side they certainly aren't bullies. Our philosphies regarding d/s don't always line up but they have always been respectful. But as Kyra said, if you didn't have them blocked you would understand. It wasn't an assumption but a discussion regarding a specific comment that was made by a specific person.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:46:35 PM   
james2Jay


Posts: 15
Joined: 7/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


It is nonsense to suggest a slave has "permission" to say "no", unless her master has actually granted her that privilege.

On the other hand, as I said in my earlier posts, a slave can certainly quit, and this is one of the ways in which she can do it: through refusal to serve.

Just because a slave agrees to serve does not negate her natural born ability to exercise free will. A slave can do anything anyone else can do.

But as Bitatruble said earlier: there are consequences for her behaviour whereas the consequences for a sub doing exactly the same thing may be a good deal less drastic.


My observation just the same.

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:49:42 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

She should certainly mean "no" if she says it.

However, by saying "no", she is saying she doesn't trust her master's judgment.


I think my reply to this would be roughly the same as my reply to CuriousLord.  There are a variety of scenarios that one can come up with where saying 'no' wouldn't necessarily involve a questioning of the Master's judgement on the part of the slave.  Additionally, perhaps the Master doesn't wish the slave to have that kind of absolute trust on the grounds that it would require him to be a god and he doesn't want to be a god.  


_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 5:53:11 PM   
james2Jay


Posts: 15
Joined: 7/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
I've seen more than a few subs display a great deal of venom at the suggestion that one must be virtually without limits to be a slave.


And for good reason, from their point of view.

Once a "slave" is defined as "one who has no limits" he/she becomes far more desirable to many of us than any sub could hope to be.

This appears to be the reason why the word "slave" has now come to mean anything subby.

It's sort of like those generic brands trying to look like a popular brand so as to fool people into buying the knock-off rather than the geuine article.

Some of us still read the labels, however, and will not be fooled by imitations 




My perspective is just this. you incorporate bdsm in to your life or you 'do' bdsm, then your not a master/your a kinky roleplaying servicetop. and if you call yourself a slave, understand "slave" isnt something you turn on and off when your in the mood. its who you are. in terms of my obsevations its either your a slave or your a submissive bottom. and either your a service top or your a 24/7 master.

< Message edited by james2Jay -- 8/26/2007 5:55:55 PM >

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 6:44:57 PM   
jssubc


Posts: 46
Joined: 5/29/2006
Status: offline 		And it does bother me that subs who negotiate everything claim to be "slaves", thus comparing themselves (in my mind) to those with no limits.

I'd be curious to hear what word subs would assign to a 'sub' who has no limits, to distinguish him/her from those other subs who have all kinds of limits.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

i quite proudly describe myself as a slave and yes between myself and Mistress i have no limits, but that in itself is a lie, everyone has limits. The truth of the statement relies completely on the fact that i place absolute trust in my Mistress and how She will treat me, and trust is what makes the relationship work. What She asks and expects of me has changed drastically over the last 5 years, our boundaries are constantly shifting. By saying no limits i give myself to Her and it is Her choice to use me as She sees fit. If Mistress were to abuse that trust then i would excersize the only option that i have, yes She has pushed me and there have been times that i have struggled but we are a 24/7 relationship and i truly believe that by choosing each other well we took the step of establishing "no limits"



(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 6:48:03 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

She should certainly mean "no" if she says it.

However, by saying "no", she is saying she doesn't trust her master's judgment.


I think my reply to this would be roughly the same as my reply to CuriousLord.  There are a variety of scenarios that one can come up with where saying 'no' wouldn't necessarily involve a questioning of the Master's judgement on the part of the slave.  Additionally, perhaps the Master doesn't wish the slave to have that kind of absolute trust on the grounds that it would require him to be a god and he doesn't want to be a god.  



Yes.. I agree...  My girls are not allowed to disobey... However, they can ask for Clarification of a given order.  They also are required to state any situation where they perceive that Obedience would cause them harm.  It's not to say the can give an Outright NO... but they can cause me to reinforce what I want.  On occassions because of their asking of Clarification.. I have changed an order.... largely because of the information they give sends things to complete differenct result that I don't want.  OH I wish I was god and know all see all... but I just not that good.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 6:53:33 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Indeed.

I've blocked the bullies and they're miffed. Check "the decline of collarme" thread for details.

Shall we get back to the topic?



I think amused would be closer to fact than miffed.   The blocking feature doesn't work so well.. since anyone that isn't blocked can reply to a given post and a person is subjected to the blocked person's post in the first place.  Secondly, it is dependent on the person doing the blocking having alittle discipline.  Doesn't do much good to block if the person goes and peaks. 

In the end.. a person... such as bob here.... can I call you bob? loses all sorts of creditibility when he plays games with the blocking... as some other member in the blocked club stated... we haven't had this type of drama with the blocking since candy.  they really do deserve each other.


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: SLAVES VS SUBS - 8/26/2007 8:17:50 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

 
The "bartering" or, rather, the discussion of wants/needs/requirements of my Master and i came before i made my decision to become His slave.  The rules, that i would be required to live by, were set by my Master and understood and agreed to by me, before i accepted my His collar and became His slave.  If He had required that i give up all connections to family and friends, negotiations would have ceased between Uus.  The mere suggestion of that would have been a red flag to me, that this is not someone i would respect or trust and, without those two qualities being present, i would not be interested in serving.



I wanted to highlight this because it has not come up in the discussion till this point.

It is critically vital that the process that leads to a choice to be a slave involves a -lot- of discussion.

It is not enough to negotiate terms. There must also be compatibility when it comes to ethics and morals. Considering what is at stake, any and all concerns should be addressed before the decision is made (assuming that red flags don't end the process along the way).

There are some who would be slave who have almost no essential contacts with the vanilla world. They are just so different from others that these relationships are easily dispensed with.

On the other hand, there are others, such as SlaveJoy, who value these relationships and will not part with them.

Some masters will accept those limitations to their authority, others won't.

This is why discussion is essential: so all involved can make informed decisions.


And, my unwillingness to disconnect from all family and friends, in order to enter into slavery, doesn't "disqualify" me from being a slave, as was asserted earlier in this thread? (http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1232796)
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David
 
"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."
 



I can't speak to how your master sees this, but I know how I'd view it:

I would be viewing this as essential ingredients for your mental health. Just as air is an essential ingredient for your physical health.

Were this a situation involving me, I would make clear I expected you to be willing to delay a visit if I felt I had a greater need for you than they do. But I would also make it clear that I expected you to be a good friend to your friends, and a good member of the family with your family, and that I would cooperate as far as scheduling to give you the opportunities to develop those relationships and enrich them.

In this sense, they are not "rights", but "necessities of life", which I happen to believe to be far more essential to a slave than "rights".

Bear in mind I am not saying I personally would accept those requirements at this point in my life.

But I did, in fact, accept them with my wife some nine years ago when we moved in together.

She accepted those conditions and would make tentative arrangements to meet others and would then ask me if these dates were acceptable.

Almost all of them were. If not it was due to illness or really bad weather.

I don't see any of that being any less a slave.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 120
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