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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 7:57:11 PM

anthrosub

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Joined: 6/2/2004
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Hey, thanks for your input. I haven't raised kids of my own but have a few dozen nieces and nephews now. When I was young, I got to take care of several of my sisters since I was the oldest. I learned how to do diapers, feed (then burp), and other fun stuff. Of course, I also got to see babies become young children several times over, too. I have six sisters.

Another thing to add to how children are...they have no inhibitions and often say things an adult would keep to themselves. It can be extremely embarassing at times. They also say things based on what their current vocabulary. I remember one of my nephews saw me all sweaty from working out on a rowing machine. He'd never seen someone sweat before so he asked me if I was OK, then told me I was "leaking." I split my sides on that one.

I will say you're right about some being content not to be curious. Sometimes I get going and forget that not everything that's turned in me is necessarily turned on in others so thanks for the reminder.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 21

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 8:07:40 PM

anthrosub

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Joined: 6/2/2004
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AAkasha,
Thanks for the heads up on the book. I'm going to look into it. I would qualify myself as an agnostic. I say this because I know there's a limit to my awareness and knowledge and saying I'm an atheist seems like closing the door on further learning. Whatever it is that's beyond what we can comprehend...well...it's a mystery is the most we can say. It doesn't have to be a belief for me because it's clear that there's something outside what I do know. In other words, the unknown exists.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 22

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 8:11:56 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Depending on which bible you read you will get different translations to the facts totally changing.

Some say that the bible was a story book that happened to show up when the world was in crisis. It seemed to have a calming affect on people.
Hence people followed it.

Myself, my views are all over. I don't claim to know it all on any topic. I'm merely well read. Politics and religion are usually two subjects I don't go near.
Well, religion I love discussing with small groups.

Personally I do believe there is a higher power. I'm just not sure of the name I use yet.

I applaud you Anthro for asking. Good luck on your search.

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 23

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 9:11:50 PM

anthrosub

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sub4hire,
Thank you most kindly.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 24

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 9:44:16 PM

Ssilver

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Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

But other things remain a mystery...self-preservation being one of them.

Have you read "The Selfish Gene"?

_____________________________

www.akashaweb.com

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 25

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 10:45:55 PM

knees2you

Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
By the age of roughly two years old, our brain has developed enough and our language acquistion has matured to the point that we start experiencing our own thoughts (and those of others communicated through language). We have also accumulated memories and these memories lay the foundation for what will eventually become our identity. From here on, we slowly begin to identify ourselves through thinking...we become self-aware and develop an ego.

anthrosub,

I have to agree with darkAngel,
your theory is fine for You
but the rest of us feel the way we do for certain
reasons.

quote:

But as I read your words - I am struggling to find out who you are trying to convert? darkAngel

darkAngel is truly wise. LOL

Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 26

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 11:07:33 PM

onceburned

Posts: 2117
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From: Iowa
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quote:

darkAngel is truly wise.

Oh, I think all of the regulars here already know that.

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 27

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 4:59:17 AM

anthrosub

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Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

anthrosub,

I have to agree with darkAngel,
your theory is fine for You
but the rest of us feel the way we do for certain
reasons.

Of course you do...but not for the same reasons. Each of us is at our own unique point of understanding. You, dark~angel, me, everybody...it's what makes us who we are.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 28

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 7:25:01 AM

kisshou

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Joined: 2/11/2005
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Does something have to exist in order for you to believe it does not exist?

(does that make sense) I can never understand the logic behind the concept of atheism.

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 29

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 9:35:47 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Does something have to exist in order for you to believe it does not exist?

(does that make sense) I can never understand the logic behind the concept of atheism.

*chuckle* Good way of putting that question.

No, you do not have to believe something exists in order to believe it does not exist.

People didn't used to believe in microbes and hadn't even conceived of DNA- they had to have it proven that it existed first.

If someone told you there was a diamond on your chair and you didn't see it, would you have to believe there WAS a diamond on your chair first BEFORE saying you didn't believe a diamond was on your chair?

Atheists tend to think along these lines.

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 30

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 11:48:48 AM

anthrosub

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Personally (i.e., my opinion), I've always held that believing in something doesn't make it true, it only makes the belief true. In other words, the belief is what exists. Once I realized this (and not just intellectually), lots of doors started flying open for me.

I mentioned the PBS series "The Day the Universe Changed" in an earlier post (6 one hour segments). At the start of the program, James Burke tells a funny story. A few centuries after it was proven the earth orbits the sun, a man remarked to another how silly people were to once believe the sun orbited the earth. The other man said, "Yes, but I wonder how it would have looked if it did orbit the earth." Point being, it would have looked the same!

We see what we see until new information changes what we see. That's the point of the series and it's very interesting to see all the milestone events highlighted in the program that have taken place over time.

My computer parts arrived today, so I'll be away for a bit. It's great talking with all of you...every one of you.

anthrosub

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 7/11/2005 11:58:20 AM >

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 31

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 1:56:08 PM

Lordandmaster

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I only very reluctantly get into conversations about God, because it's a great way not to have a productive conversation, but I'll assume you're serious and explain what I take to be the major argument in favor of atheism.

Kid asks his priest (or Mom, or teacher, whatever), "Why do you believe in God?"

And the authority figure responds, "Well, son, of course you have to believe in God, otherwise, how can you explain the universe that you see all around you? Where did it come from?"

Kid says, "Oh, so you mean someone must have created it?"

"Right, because obviously it couldn't have created itself. That would be illogical, wouldn't it?"

Kid says, "OK, I get it, so God created the universe." Pause. "But then who created God?"

At that point, the whole silly theistic argument falls apart. We assume that the universe couldn't have created itself, because that is supposed to be some kind of logical fallacy--and our solution is just to postulate a God who created everything, and not ask where HE came from? God is not a solution to the problem at all. It's just a way of deferring all the metaphysical difficulties back one stage--and then conveniently not asking very much about what happens at that earlier stage, because our knowledge and logic are, of course, inadequate to deal with the issues. I'm not pretending that I know how the universe came to be, but saying that God created it isn't an answer.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Does something have to exist in order for you to believe it does not exist?

(does that make sense) I can never understand the logic behind the concept of atheism.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/11/2005 2:10:05 PM >

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 32

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 3:47:26 PM

pleasureforHim

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Joined: 7/2/2005
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i'm 51 yrs old...well past the halycon days when i wrestled with questions such as "where did God come from?" There is a school of thought that God's existence can be proven ala St. Augustine. There is another school of thought that the mere effort to logically prove God's existence is sinful, because belief and faith cannot be reduced to mere logic, ala St. Thomas.

Myself, i do not care. i believe, i'm sure, in part because i was raised to be Catholic. However at my age that would not hold water. So here are some reasons i believe; i hope they lift someone struggling:

1. i have met pure evil. Per force, pure goodness must exist.

2. i have survived and thrived when Las Vegas oddsmakers would have said it was not worth a thousand to one shot -- many, many times. Therefore, more than mere happenstance has been at work in my life.

3. i have held my infant daughter, minutes old.

4. i have felt my parents, and my son, all my life, though they are long dead.

5. i believe in justice. i believe in a day of reckoning. i believe someday, those who cannabalize children by sexual exploitation or elsewise will be cast into hell, along with others who have offended God.

6. i believe a person can lose his humanity through acts so heinous as to be unforgivable except by God; no mere mortal can find a way to forgive them. The Holocost; the Ethnic Purfication; and so on.

7. i believe when i pray, God hears me. The answer is almost always different than what i expected, and oftimes better.

8. i believe we all pay a "cost of doing businesss"; a ledger of our sins and acts of grace and kindness. As we age, they may show on our faces but they certainly show on our souls. If we have been cruel, we will have ugliness inside, and possibly outside, of ourselves. i believe the moral choice should be made so that one can see beauty in the mirror as one ages, and because it pleases God, and not out of fear or for applause.

These may not seem like good reasons to anyone else. They are good enough for me; and i have acquired them over a long, long time.

pleasureforHim

< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/12/2005 8:46:24 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 33

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 7:50:14 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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I am not sure who might take offense to your post. I don't, but it does show Me, along with other post you have made, what your necessary thought processes are.

quote:

For some reason, we can't be content with simply not knowing. Something about the makeup of our ego compels us to find an answer by any means necessary. It's seems the ego is so accustomed to getting an answer that it simply can't accept that maybe there really isn't one. But what I suggest here is not that there isn't an answer but that this is simply a product of how our brain is structured and how we use it. This is one indicator of how we as human beings are all inwardly alike.

This is the paragraph I pick out which tells Me you may, indeed be looking for some sort of validation. Perhaps the make-up of your ego compels you to find an answer by any means necessay, but Mine doesn't. I have no problem accepting that there may not be one.

quote:

It explains why we have religion and science to begin with and why one is preferable to some and not to others. When someone says, "This is what I believe or this is my theory..." what they are really saying is, "This is what I think."

Not trying to be hard on you here, but when I deal with people in therapy this is often a big roadblock. It is easy to say "I think". I am not saying you have a problem or need therapy, so please don't *think* I am going there, because I am not. It is not that easy for some people to move into the realm of "I feel". Emotion is a big part of life too. I am pretty logical, but I also have feelings, and those must be taken into consideration also. Everything can't be as cut and dried as some would like.

quote:

To me, religion fills the void where the ego insists there must be an answer.

I feel exactly the opposite. To Me, religion (or any form of spirituality) fills the void where the ego realizes there may not be any answer at all. And this is where I can rely on faith.

quote:

from dark~angel
The bible, as an example, is full of scientific facts that science has been able to verify - I think it is important to understand that religion and science works in complete harmony and not try to cause a seperation of the two because that is just kind of dangerous to try to cause rifts between two things that contain complimentry information.

I didn't get involved with your other thread because dark~angel usually does a sufficient job of representing My point of view. *W* But this is a good point. Take it however you want. I have no problem believing in evolution and fitting in nicely into My Christian perspective. I sometimes have the feeling that those who believe have an easier time adjusting to life, than those who insist that there is nothing beyond this world, and have to have a logical explantion for everything.
So I have to read this one of two ways. Either you are struggling and need to have validation for your POV, or you are trying to use logic to convert those you feel are on a wrong path of having a god or a spiritual faith in their life. This may not be what you meant, or even what you "thought* while making this post, but what other reason would there be for posting this? Any debate or discussion is begun to put forth your own point of view to either convince others of your theory, and/or seek information and other POVs, in case you are off the mark.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 7/11/2005 7:59:28 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 34

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 8:20:25 PM

onceburned

Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
My computer parts arrived today, so I'll be away for a bit. It's great talking with all of you...every one of you.

Quick! Now is the time to change the picture on his profile!

Okay... time for some random quotes and my responses.

quote:

But other things remain a mystery...self-preservation being one of them. All animals will take steps to avoid danger. How they do it can be learned from their parents or their group but that doesn't explain the motivation.

On a related note, are humans the only animals to commit suicide?

quote:

I know from my studies in archeology that bones of dinosaurs and some of the animals such as wooly mammoths and other giant mammals from the ice age were found in excavations of ancient villages and towns in parts of Europe and around the Mediterranean Sea. <snip>
This suggests that the creatures found in ancient, pre-biblical mythology were inspired by these bones.

hmmm... I dunno. I wonder if the the monsters of ancient mythology have more to do with human thoughts and our encounter with nature. I would think it is easy to extrapolate from knowledge of beasts and their strength, size, speed etc relative to man and imagine a creature that is bigger, faster, stronger. I am not sure that bones or fossils are necessary.

quote:

Do we "have" a body separate from ourselves? That's a convention of the language we use. We don't have a body, we are a body. We've had our identity for so long we don't think about how it got started in the first place.

It is a tough nut to crack. Descartes messed up when he said: "I think, therefore I am." He is already presuming a body which does thinking. At best this kind of self-reflection comes up with awareness - with mind and body merged.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by onceburned -- 7/11/2005 8:37:28 PM >

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 35

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 10:12:51 PM

anthrosub

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My computer building adventure is going slower than I anticipated. I'm glad I still have an online connection to get some answers on that. But since I'm still online, I stopped by to see what's been posted.

Lordandmaster's child analogy was pretty much my experience growing up. Nobody wanted to go past the first answer to my question. When I asked further, it was always "that's disrespectful" or "that's blasphemy." I never stopped asking.

So, to get to what Goddess Dusty Gold is asking, I suppose I'm simply looking for others who have been in my shoes. People I can talk to and relate with and not have the door slammed in my face for asking an honest question. Is this validation? It feels more like being the Lone Ranger. Over the years, I've had to content myself with my own introspection and curiosity. I've learned a lot about how the mind plays tricks on itself and how these tricks play out in conversations with others.

I'm a very sensitive person, if anyone here knew me in person they'd have no doubt. It's one of the reasons I pursued my conversation with dark~angel, it's frustrating to have something you say spoken back to you with misunderstanding written all over it. So I try to unravel the knot and explain myself more clearly. Often this takes several exchanges, so I'm not surprised by it really.

As far as what my point is in posting my point of view...it's who I am inside, what I've experienced in my life. I'm looking for others who might have touched similar places inside themselves (thoughts and feelings). In some ways, I'm running up to everyone and saying, "Look what I found! What do you think?" Some people say "Wow," some aren't impressed, while others say, "That's taboo." The people who say "Wow" are those I can relate to (at least on this subject anyway). I know there are people here who would rather not see this stuff even being discussed but I'm not here to spite them.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 36

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 10:20:01 PM

anthrosub

Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

On a related note, are humans the only animals to commit suicide?

Interesting and surprising question. I've never come across anything that says they do. You can't count fish spawning, parents defending their young to the death, or lemmings running off a cliff. Even sick animals seem to keep going until they simply break down and die. I'm going to see if I can find anything on the subject. Never thought of it before.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 37

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 10:25:48 PM

Lordandmaster

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It turns out, by the way, that the lemmings don't really run off a cliff. Their numbers just rise and fall in surprisingly cyclical ways, and people always assumed that whole hordes of them had to be offing themselves periodically. But the phenomenon has to do with regular changes in the numbers of their predators.

(If anyone has ever seen armies of lemmings killing themselves, I'd love to know about it, because I don't believe it really happens.)

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

lemmings running off a cliff

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 38

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/11/2005 10:31:07 PM

anthrosub

Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

At that point, the whole silly theistic argument falls apart. We assume that the universe couldn't have created itself, because that is supposed to be some kind of logical fallacy--and our solution is just to postulate a God who created everything, and not ask where HE came from? God is not a solution to the problem at all. It's just a way of deferring all the metaphysical difficulties back one stage--and then conveniently not asking very much about what happens at that earlier stage, because our knowledge and logic are, of course, inadequate to deal with the issues. I'm not pretending that I know how the universe came to be, but saying that God created it isn't an answer.

That's it in a nutshell in my opinion...and to be fair, the same thing happens with science (except there's something more tangible to work with). At the atomic level, we reached the point where we can't be sure if what we are seeing is what happens when we're not looking or if we influenced it by pointing intruments at the event and changing the outcome. In space, the more far out we reach, the more we find there is to look at. In both cases though, the honest answer that you've pointed out is the limit of our ability to see (science) or comprehend (religion). It's where both science and religion meet and where the whole debate is born.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 39

RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 5:26:35 AM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
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Looking for validations, converting, convincing others of your theories,by any means necessary, struggling, are all negative connatations

I look at it as: brainstorming, learning, growing, finding others who wonder about the same things so I don't feel all alone in the world (that is kind of different than validation) , curiosity. wanting to grow as a person

If a person is really sure of their beliefs they don't have to worry about being converted but maybe they will give a reply that will spark an epiphany in someone reading it. That spark might get hidden under all the negative stuff.

The glass is always overflowing :)

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 40

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