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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 5:29:12 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

On a related note, are humans the only animals to commit suicide?


As far as science is concerned - there seems to be a hazy uncertainty. Scientists say that they cannot definately say that if an animal dies or seems to 'kill' itself that this is suicide definition or not.

Some animals, like fish and squid etc, do kill themselves - but this seems to be because of a reason, like making room for younger animals - like selection. In a way - that can be seen as suicide because that is what some people also do and that is seen as suicide. On the other hand, whales and dolphins beach themselves when sick already or dying - but that could be because their radar has already been effected and not just because they want to die quicker. Dogs and cats may go off to die, and will starve themselves. However that might be just part of their death and sickness not giving them the incentive to drink becuase they feel too ill. But compare that to someone deteriorating becuase of a disease that will eventually kill them, and the only reason they live is because of medical intervention. Yet they may want to die and signed forms saying so. But anyone assisting their death are accused of assisting suicide - so really - what exactly is suicide?

I do know there was a report in the UK I think a few months back about some dogs jumping off bridges for no reason and no one knew why.

There does seem to be a link with stress in animals and self harm, however. Caged animals or animal placed under stress will attempt self harm - not just by trying to escape but doing physical damage to themself. These are obseved usually in zoos, and more in circus entertainment etc... Scientists link this as a huge step to trying to understand 'animal suicides' and 'human suicides' because humans become stressed and suffer from stress more often and in different ways to animals - which probably has something to do with self realisation than anything else. Which is why longterm caged animals are so interesting, because the suicide results in the animals self realisation that theres no escape.

But as far as I have ever read, no one can put a finger directly on whether animals do commit suicide or not. Although it is recognised that certain cells in both animals and humans will commit suicide if they are sick, stressed or over capacity.

Peace and Love


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 9:05:29 AM   
pleasureforHim


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quote:

from dark~angel
The bible, as an example, is full of scientific facts that science has been able to verify - I think it is important to understand that religion and science works in complete harmony and not try to cause a seperation of the two because that is just kind of dangerous to try to cause rifts between two things that contain complimentry information.


O, the fun of being Catholic. My Church opposes scientific research in so many ways. Stem cell research (because the stem cells might come from the product of an abortion). Parkinson's research (pretty much the same objection). Any type of fertility research. Research into the genome, because it is seen as interfering with God's plan to eliminate genetic disease. (That one's a real hoot.)

The Church also opposes amniocentesis on pregnant women, on the grounds that if a woman learns she is carrying a badly formed fetus, she might choose to abort. The Church opposes in vitro fertilization, on several grounds, but in part because not every embryo will be given life.

It is just a joy to hear a homily on the Word of God requiring no further research that would end Lou Gehrig's Disease, or Parkinson's, etc. There are times that only strength of will keeps a catholic ass in a pew.

So no, i do not feel that scientists should ever reference the bible in conducting research, nor should the religious right hijack federal funding for research. i feel the two -- Catholic canon law -- and the work of science -- should remain as disparate as possible. God forbide we should exercize any more influence than we already do.

pleasureforHim


< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/12/2005 9:14:01 AM >

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 9:49:11 AM   
ScooterTrash


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First off anthro..gotta love the disclaimer.
I have kept up somewhat with the responses to this, if for nothing else to see which way it went. I think (there's that word) I understand where you are coming from.

The first part of your "conclusion" I have to feel is extremely accurate, to sum it up in one line; "We are the sum of our experiences". I don't know that I would completely agree with the term "ego" being used to describe that sum, but I get your drift. This does explain why people will always look at the world through their own method of understanding, they have to relate it to things they know or understand, to put it in context.

quote:

If, as I just outlined we are what we think, then the "unknown" is outside that sphere of information. This sounds simple but wait...what I'm saying is who we really are includes all that is outside that sphere. What the ego is struggling with is trying to do something it cannot do...step outside the boundaries of its own makeup.
quote:

I'm drawn to science because it emulates how the brain works to begin with. To me, religion fills the void where the ego insists there must be an answer.
Hopefully you don't mind, as I have put these together as I think they relate so well to what I believe you are trying to say. Yes, I have to agree, even if there are those who won't admit it, it is human nature to try and formulate an explanation when confronted with something new, or "unexplainable". Perhaps there really are those who ARE satisfied to accept that they don't know something and the answer is not out there, but I have to think that is rare. Myself I can accept there is no rational explanation based on the information available at the time and I am going to have to form my own conclusion, since no one else did it for me, but to accept that there is no explanation…none at all, I can’t go there. I will do this each time, I am not satisfied to simply accept that there is no explanation. For many with a similar drive, or thought process, you may be correct in your assumption that they lean on their religious beliefs to fill that void if there isn’t, or even as many point out, even if there is a logical scientific explanation. For myself, that’s not enough however. If there is no logical explanation of where the universe came from, or what caused the big bang, or where did life originate, etc., etc., I can’t fall back on a belief system and just accept that. Just telling me something does not satisfy my need to know. It doesn’t have anything to do with having faith or not having faith as I see it..it’s just not logical to me, there is not enough substance there to satisfy me, I need that action/interaction type of example. In those cases, I will draw my own conclusion utilizing whatever information I have available and to me and that will be the truth, until I am either proven otherwise or I come across enough data to change my mind. Essentially…using the sum of my experiences and what I know in my own mind to be true, I formulate a conclusion I can live with. Since this discussion seemed to go off on some tangent that this was a theological subject, I have to conclude that if your “sum” of experiences incorporate faith as one of the key ingredients, then you are simply doing the same thing I do. In that case you just have a different collection of information to work with…no rights, no wrongs, and perhaps way out of tune with someone else’s, but it may in fact be enough to satisfy you..which is really all it has to do. Will someone disagree with your conclusion? Certainly. If they don’t, now THAT would scare the hell out of me.


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 10:03:59 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

On a related note, are humans the only animals to commit suicide?


As far as science is concerned - there seems to be a hazy uncertainty. Scientists say that they cannot definately say that if an animal dies or seems to 'kill' itself that this is suicide definition or not.


*giggle* I keep thinking lemmings.

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 1:23:16 PM   
darkinshadows


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I think that the reference you mention is one of those personal choice matters and although still relevant, was not what I was referring to.

When I refered to science and religion complementing - for an example. That the bible originally said the earth was round and rotates on its axis and the reference to air currents and the warming of air, storm front movements, fresh water rivers in the sea etc... all of these are found in the bible by either Gods intervention (when commanding Job for example) or Gods words (via pslams) - complimentry science fact - nothing to do with science fiction.

Peace and Love


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 2:37:24 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou


Looking for validations, converting, convincing others of your theories,by any means necessary, struggling, are all negative connatations

I look at it as: brainstorming, learning, growing, finding others who wonder about the same things so I don't feel all alone in the world (that is kind of different than validation) , curiosity. wanting to grow as a person

If a person is really sure of their beliefs they don't have to worry about being converted but maybe they will give a reply that will spark an epiphany in someone reading it. That spark might get hidden under all the negative stuff.




The glass is always overflowing :)




Thanks for those words. It's what I've been saying about why I started this topic but I guess my rendition doesn't come across very well.

anthrosub


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 3:23:46 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

Myself I can accept there is no rational explanation based on the information available at the time and I am going to have to form my own conclusion, since no one else did it for me, but to accept that there is no explanation…none at all, I can’t go there.


Thanks for your entire post and it's good to hear from you once more. I quoted part of it because what you said is my objection to being an atheist. There's a point where, as you say, no (further) information is available. This is where I concede I don't know. It's the edge of the world as I know it but at the same time I know there's more out there (I just don't know what). Is it god? I don't know but I'm not arrogant enough to say it isn't so that's why I'm agnostic.

I didn't get indoctrinated into any religion growing up. When the questions started coming, I had already reached a point where I preferred to try and figure it out by myself. I turned to science out of my fascination with nature at first. Later...psychology, religion, and philosophy consumed my time (they are all very intertwined as I'm sure you know). The one thing that kept bugging me about religion was how many versions there are. Then I realized they are all talking about the same thing and it all came together.

My main point about science and its value is this...it's basically objective. You can be of any faith (or no faith at all) and see what science has to show you. It's neutral territory.

anthrosub


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 3:30:00 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

quote:

Myself I can accept there is no rational explanation based on the information available at the time and I am going to have to form my own conclusion, since no one else did it for me, but to accept that there is no explanation…none at all, I can’t go there.


Thanks for your entire post and it's good to hear from you once more. I quoted part of it because what you said is my objection to being an atheist. There's a point where, as you say, no (further) information is available. This is where I concede I don't know. It's the edge of the world as I know it but at the same time I know there's more out there (I just don't know what). Is it god? I don't know but I'm not arrogant enough to say it isn't so that's why I'm agnostic.

I didn't get indoctrinated into any religion growing up. When the questions started coming, I had already reached a point where I preferred to try and figure it out by myself. I turned to science out of my fascination with nature at first. Later...psychology, religion, and philosophy consumed my time (they are all very intertwined as I'm sure you know). The one thing that kept bugging me about religion was how many versions there are. Then I realized they are all talking about the same thing and it all came together.

My main point about science and its value is this...it's basically objective. You can be of any faith (or no faith at all) and see what science has to show you. It's neutral territory.

anthrosub



Is there any person in your life who you respect greatly that has a very committed faith in their own spirituality? If you talk with people who have profound faith I think you can get a sense of how it works in their life. Mind you, these are often the people that are most quiet about their own faith; they're goal isn't to convert anyone, they simply have a faith that works in their life.

Akasha

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 8:06:00 PM   
anthrosub


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Unfortunately no. One of my sisters was a devout Catholic for twenty years but not how you describe. For as long as she followed the church she was impossible to talk to...extremely defensive whenever discussion deviated from a literal understanding of the bible. She essentially did not have faith in her own conviction.

I think I understand what you're saying though...sort of a quiet fortitude (a strength that shows in their quiet demeanor).

I know this isn't what you're asking but the one person who's had the biggest influence on my thinking I never met...Krishnamurti. Not many people I've met have ever heard of him and usually confuse him with Hari Krishnas because of his name. He was born in 1895 and died in 1986. During his lifetime, he met and talked with people from all over the world, gave a speech at the United Nations and even shared his understanding with the scientists at Los Alamos where they developed the Hydrogen bomb.

He followed no religion and claimed no country as his own. He wasn't a "guru" from India or any of the other popular movements that sprung up in the late 50's through the 70's. He was simply a human being living on earth and had enormous insight. He was adopted by a British couple and educated at Oxford (or Cambridge, I can't remember which). He was thought to be the embodiment of the second coming of Christ and was being groomed for that role but at the age of 31 (in 1926), dissolved the organization he was meant to lead. During his announcement, he gave a speech and made the statement, "Truth is a pathless land." That's what struck a chord in me. The only thing he ever owned was a pocket watch.

I lot of what I've been saying was inspired by his words. Anyone interested can go to www.kfa.org and learn more about him (there's a webpage there with his biography and an excerpt of his "Pathless Land" speech). There must be at least 100 books published that are transcripts of his talks. I don't mean to hype him here but there's really nobody quite like him. He's worth checking out.

anthrosub


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 8:24:59 PM   
Ssilver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub


My main point about science and its value is this...it's basically objective. You can be of any faith (or no faith at all) and see what science has to show you. It's neutral territory.




I don't think that is correct, unless you're willing to concede that the devout frequently and without hesitation toss their religion to the side when it is convenient for them.

There are many cases where religion and science clash. Now, God has been stuffed into the gaps, and the gaps keep getting smaller, but that doesn't seem to deter the faithful too much...

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/12/2005 8:51:01 PM   
anthrosub


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I see your point. I didn't want to offend anyone by saying something like..."Of course you have to be willing to look at what science is showing you." I was hoping that would come across as a given. I think only the most extreme creationists would resist science outright.

anthrosub


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 5:57:35 AM   
ScooterTrash


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I feel trying to look at anything objectively can't be done with blinders on, no matter what your perceptions are. Even if I totally think someone is "full of it" and it's unlikely I am ever going to agree with their way of thinking due to my own convictions, I try to speculate where they are coming from and imagine why they feel the way they do. It is only by this understanding (even if it's a somewhat animated understanding), can I attempt to project my own reasoning to them (IMHO). A bit of a twist of the "walk a mile in their shoes" concept. I have observed, that on topics such as this however, many are not willing to walk off their chosen path, even for an instant. Their choice I suppose...I would rather see both (or however many) sides however.

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 3:03:16 PM   
anthrosub


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I hear what you're saying. From time to time, I find myself wondering what it be like if you actually had a point of view that encompassed everyone else's. How would you talk to others? To speak to them in a way that conveys what you're trying to say without offense would require a lot of care and attention. Short of that, I guess a good first step is to say something to let people know you understand their feelings and point of view, even if it's not your own.

anthrosub


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 3:14:27 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

Unfortunately no. One of my sisters was a devout Catholic for twenty years but not how you describe. For as long as she followed the church she was impossible to talk to...extremely defensive whenever discussion deviated from a literal understanding of the bible. She essentially did not have faith in her own conviction.

anthrosub



Just a quick note to mention that I am surprised to hear of a devout Catholic who does not deviate from a literal interpretation of the bible. I was raised Catholic, and My experience is that the Catholics have thier own interpretation and it often is not very literal. In fact, it's kind of whatever the hierarchy decides it is to mean.
Additionally, until recently, Catholics were not even encouraged to read the bible. It was only under supervised study, and readings during services with an explanation afterward by the parish priest, that Catholics received their main biblical information.
I was sent to parochial school, and was taught by nuns and priests. And I was told that evolution (as an example) was perfectly acceptable. Even the big bang theory is ok. The only question remaining is "who or what caused the big bang?"
This is where faith comes into the picture. Either one has it or one doesn't. I find it much easier to have it, only because I can relate to those who might struggle to get answers that aren't there. It is a part of Me, and I have never questioned it.

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 6:50:00 PM   
anthrosub


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I think my sister was not really comprehending what she believed and instead was using it as some sort of shield. I have faith, too...just not according to any particular view.

anthrosub


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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 7:36:42 PM   
kisshou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ssilver

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub


My main point about science and its value is this...it's basically objective. You can be of any faith (or no faith at all) and see what science has to show you. It's neutral territory.




I don't think that is correct, unless you're willing to concede that the devout frequently and without hesitation toss their religion to the side when it is convenient for them.

There are many cases where religion and science clash. Now, God has been stuffed into the gaps, and the gaps keep getting smaller, but that doesn't seem to deter the faithful too much...


The devout do frequently toss their religion to the side when it is convenient for them but not their faith.

I didn't understand your second sentence.

I think alot of people believe in both a scientific and a religious explanation for things. Kind of like hedging your bets.

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 7:38:04 PM   
imtempting


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When God comes to earth and shows me he exsists I'll belive.

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 9:36:10 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

When God comes to earth and shows me he exsists I'll belive.

Too late then! *S*

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/13/2005 11:57:08 PM   
onceburned


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ssilver
There are many cases where religion and science clash. Now, God has been stuffed into the gaps, and the gaps keep getting smaller, but that doesn't seem to deter the faithful too much...


Many folks hold to the view that God hides in the dark corners of Science. But I think that implies a false dichotomy: God's actions vs. scientific explanations.

I believe God created the universe and that he made it orderly. Because it is orderly, it is understandable by human reason - hence, science.

God normally doesn't interfere in the functioning of the world. He gave us stewardship over the earth, and the responsibility to manage resources to promote the welfare of all peoples and creatures. I see no conflict between God and science here... instead, I see science as part of doing the work that God expects of us (warning of hurricanes, distributing grain to alleviate starvation etc)

I also believe in miracles. God can suspend laws of nature when he chooses. But miracles do not invalidate the normal operations of universe that we can see in our daily lives. Science and religion are perfectly compatible - at least as this Catholic sees the situation.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 7/13/2005 11:58:08 PM >

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/15/2005 3:13:30 PM   
anthrosub


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I was thinking over this thread today and remembered something I read a long time ago. It's the first chapter of a book by Richard Bach (very short). I'm posting it here for all to read. I think it's a delightful parable and would like to hear what you get from reading it.

anthrosub


quote:

1. There was a Master come unto the earth, born in the holy land
of Indiana, raised in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne.

2. The Master learned of this world in the public schools of
Indiana, and as he grew, in his trade as a mechanic of
automobiles.

3. But the Master had learnings from other lands and other
schools, from other lives that he had lived. He remembered
these, and remembering became wise and strong, so that others
saw his strength and came to him for counsel.

4. The Master believed that he had power to help himself and all
mankind, and as he believed so it was for him, so that others
saw his power and came to him to be healed of their troubles
and their many diseases.

5. The Master believed that it is well for any man to think upon
himself as a son of God, and as he believed, so it was, and
the shops and garages where he worked became crowded and
jammed with those who sought his learning and his touch; and
the streets outside with those who longed only that the shadow
of his passing might fall upon them, and change their lives.

6. It came to pass, because of the crowds, that the several
foremen and shop managers bid the Master leave his tools and
go his way, for so tightly was he thronged that neither he nor
other mechanics had room to work upon the automobiles.

7. So it was that he went into the countryside, and people
following began to call him Messiah, and worker of miracles;
and as they believed, it was so.

8. If a storm passed as he spoke, not a raindrop touched a
listener's head; the last of the multitude heard his words as
clearly as the first, no matter lightning or thunder in the
sky about. And always he spoke to them in parables.

9. And he said unto them, "Within each of us lies the power of
our consent to health and to sickness, to riches and to
poverty, to freedom and to slavery. It is we who control
these, and not another."

10. A mill-man spoke and said, "Easy words for you, Master, for
you are guided as we are not, and need not toil as we toil. A
man has to work for his living in this world."

11. The Master answered and said, "Once there lived a village of
creatures along the bottom of a great crystal river.

12. "The current of the river swept silently over them all --
young and old, rich and poor, good and evil, the current going
its own way, knowing only its own crystal self.

13. "Each creature in its own manner clung tightly to the twigs
and rocks of the river bottom, for clinging was their way of
life, and resisting the current what each had learned from
birth.

14. "But one creature said at last, 'I am tired of clinging.
Though I cannot see it with my eyes, I trust that the current
knows where it is going. I shall let go, and let it take me
where it will. Clinging, I shall die of boredom.'

15. "The other creatures laughed and said, 'Fool! Let go, and
that current you worship will throw you tumbled and smashed
across the rocks, and you will die quicker than boredom!'

16. "But the one heeded them now, and taking a breath did let go,
and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the
rocks.

17. "Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the
current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised
and hurt no more.

18. "And the creatures downstream, to whom he was a stranger,
cried, 'See a miracle! A creature like ourselves, yet he
flies! See the Messiah, come to save us all!'

19. "And the one carried in the current said, 'I am no more
Messiah than you. The river delights to lift us free, if only
we dare let go. Our true work is this voyage, this
adventure.'

20. "But they cried all the more, 'Savior!' all the while
clinging to the rocks, and when they looked again he was gone,
and they were left alone making legends of a Savior."

21. And it came to pass when he saw that the multitude thronged
him the more day on day, tighter and closer and fiercer than
ever they had, when he saw that they pressed him to heal them
without rest, and feed them always with his miracles, to learn
for them and to live their lives, he went alone that day unto
a hilltop apart, and there he prayed.

22. And he said in his heart, Infinite Radiant Is, if it be thy
will, let this cup pass from me, let me lay aside this
impossible task. I cannot live the life of one other soul,
yet ten thousand cry to me for life. I'm sorry I allowed it
all to happen. If it be thy will, let me go back to my engines
and my tools and let me live as other men.

23. And a voice spoke to him on the hilltop, a voice neither male
nor female, loud nor soft, a voice infinitely kind. And the
voice said unto him, "Not my will, but thine be done. For
what is thy will is mine for thee. Go thy way as other men,
and be thou happy on the earth."

24. And hearing, the Master was glad, and gave thanks, and came
down form the hilltop humming a little mechanic's song. And
when the throng pressed him with its woes, beseeching him to
heal for it and learn for it and feed it nonstop from his
understanding and to entertain it with his wonders, he smiled
upon the multitude and said pleasantly unto them, "I quit."

25. For a moment the multitude was stricken dumb with
astonishment.

26. And he said unto them, "If a man told God that he wanted most
of all to help the suffering world, no matter the price to
himself, and God answered and told him what he must do, should
the man do as he is told?"

27. "Of course, Master!" cried the many. "It should be pleasure
for him to suffer the tortures of hell itself, should God ask
it!"

28. "No matter what these tortures, nor how difficult the task?"

29. "Honor to be hanged, glory to be nailed to a tree and burned,
if so be that God has asked," said they.

30. "And what would you do," the Master said unto the multitude,
"if God spoke directly to your face and said, 'I COMMAND THAT
YOU BE HAPPY IN THE WORLD, AS LONG AS YOU LIVE.' What would
you do then?"

31. And the multitude was silent, not a voice, not a sound was
heard upon the hillsides, across the valleys where they stood.

32. And the Master said unto the silence, "In the path of our
happiness shall we find the learning for which we have chosen
this lifetime. So it is that I have learned this day, and
choose to leave you now to walk your own path, as you please."

33. And he went his way, through the crowds and left them, and
returned to the everyday world of men and machines.

--Richard Bach, Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to onceburned)
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