RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 6:28:01 AM)

mpl
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

One of my favorites is "i do not desire to submit, i desire to be compelled to submit".  (author unknown).   Some might read that and see the word compelled to mean 'made' to submit.  i do not wish to be made to do anything, but i do so desire to have such a great admiration for someone that i am simply compelled to submit.


Compel is essentially defined as meaning to force somebody to do something or make someone do something.

Inspire is essentially defined to heighten or intenstify or supply the motivation for one's actions.


I think many submissives have as you say..." a desire to be 'Compelled' to submit"  or put another way.. "a desire to be forced or made to submit".....  However, I do not see this a forced or made in the "Coercive" sense.  It is my perception that with consenual principle as the guide, a submissive sees a person that draws their submission because of this person's very nature and actions.  It is their perception of this person that compells them to submit.  Who they are and what they perceive leaves them no other reasonable choice of action but to submit.

This is not unlike using the phrase " a desire to be 'Inspired' to submit " or put another way " a desire to be motivated to submit "   It is again the perception of another person and who the submissive is as a person that compels or inspires them to submit... there is no other reasonable choice for the submissive.

In the end.. this is just a semantical debate.




KnightofMists -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 6:37:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

.....there isn't anything that I wouldn't at least try to obey in order to remain his and keep the life he provides for me and my kiddo.


and this phrase says that you are incapable of every being Wilfully Disobedient to your Master.  The effort to try to obey doesn't not indicate success in obeying.  but it does dictate that one is not choosing to disobey. 

in your words.. there isn't anything that you wouldn't at least "try" to obey.



hardbodysub -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 6:57:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

I'm not sure if I'm choosing my words correctly, but I shall try to explain what this means to me.

I feel that if a man is not dominant towards me, there is nothing to submit to. I can't just submit to nothing. He has to do something, have some, perhaps undefinable, quality that inspires me to submit to him and put his desires over my own. I can only do so much on my own, he has to meet me partway as well.

Not sure how helpful this was but I'll keep thinking about it. Maybe I can express it better after some time. [:)]


Very well said. That's pretty much the way I feel about submitting to a dominant woman.

To paraphrase an old adage, I believe that "Dominant is as dominant does." If she doesn't do something to impose her control on me, to prove her dominance, if she needs me to be a completely willing servant without her lifting a finger, then how dominant is she really? In that case, I'd suggest that she's not really being dominant, she's merely accepting freely offered service.

Unfortunately, any suggestion along these lines usually leads to accusations of being a "do-me" sub, and suggestions that
a "true submissive" shouldn't need any special incentive, any coercion or seduction, to submit and serve. Well, turnabout is fair play, and even though I don't like the use of the term "true" because of it's polarizing nature, one could just as easily say that a "true dominant" shouldn't need a submissive who is so compliant that no effort is required to control them.



hardbodysub -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 7:19:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Thank-you, Kyra for posting this!
Of course a dominant could make some one submit, but at what cost?  What they cannot do is make anyone willing to submit. 
That desire must come from the submissive. 


I think I understand what you're saying, and I agree that the desire to submit must be inherent within the submissive. However, I'd phrase it in almost the opposite way. I emphasize that I don't think you and I disagree at all in essence, just in the semantics.

I believe that the word "submit" implies willingness, that no one can be forced to submit. A person can be forced to do something, but they're not actually submitting unless they do it willingly. What a dominant person can do, however, is to seduce, coax, and manipulate a potential sub (a person with submissive desires, whether latent, deeply buried, or obvious) to the point where resistance is overcome, and the submissive desire surfaces. I think that's what is meant by the OP's reference to making someone submit.



RRafe -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 7:25:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

I'm not sure if I'm choosing my words correctly, but I shall try to explain what this means to me.

I feel that if a man is not dominant towards me, there is nothing to submit to. I can't just submit to nothing. He has to do something, have some, perhaps undefinable, quality that inspires me to submit to him and put his desires over my own. I can only do so much on my own, he has to meet me partway as well.

Not sure how helpful this was but I'll keep thinking about it. Maybe I can express it better after some time. [:)]


Very well said. That's pretty much the way I feel about submitting to a dominant woman.

To paraphrase an old adage, I believe that "Dominant is as dominant does." If she doesn't do something to impose her control on me, to prove her dominance, if she needs me to be a completely willing servant without her lifting a finger, then how dominant is she really? In that case, I'd suggest that she's not really being dominant, she's merely accepting freely offered service.

Unfortunately, any suggestion along these lines usually leads to accusations of being a "do-me" sub, and suggestions that
a "true submissive" shouldn't need any special incentive, any coercion or seduction, to submit and serve. Well, turnabout is fair play, and even though I don't like the use of the term "true" because of it's polarizing nature, one could just as easily say that a "true dominant" shouldn't need a submissive who is so compliant that no effort is required to control them.


Perspectives vary widely. There has to be a base willingness to cooperate on the part of all. One enables the needs of the other. As far as "making" someone do something-you really cannot. All you can do is offer choices-and consequences for how they are made.



hardbodysub -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 7:33:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I respond to dominance. I don't offer submission in a vacuum. I only offer submission in response to his dominance. That means I have to feel the vibes first. In this dance, I don't lead, I follow.


"I don't lead, I follow." I love the way you put it. That's exactly the way I feel.

This is one of the things that make it difficult for male subs to find a compatible dominant female. We are typically the ones who are required to take the active role in seeking, in making first contact, in "courting"/petitioning, however you want to phrase it. Yet, to many of us, this active, aggressive role is antithetical to our submissive desire, which manifests itself in the yearning to be seduced, coerced, and manipulated into surrender by a dominant woman.



hardbodysub -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 7:44:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

Hi kyra,

i have a love of sayings... One of my favorites is "i do not desire to submit, i desire to be compelled to submit".  (author unknown).   Some might read that and see the word compelled to mean 'made' to submit.  i do not wish to be made to do anything, but i do so desire to have such a great admiration for someone that i am simply compelled to submit.

i do not want to be a brat that has to be 'made' to do something.  If i do not feel it inside, i simply won't do it.

i hope this made sense (end of a long week).  [&:]


That's another good way of putting it. "I desire to be compelled to submit".

I'm very gratified by the wealth of interesting responses to this topic, and so many good quotes. I've seen so much of the opposing viewpoint (you know, a real submissive lives to serve, needs no coercion, etc.) that it seemed almost nobody else felt the way I did. Now I'm comforted to know that there are a lot of people here who share my feelings, so maybe there's a chance I'll find someone after all.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the opposing viewpoint is wrong. Whatever works for you, works for you, so go for it.



hardbodysub -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 7:48:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

A man making me his slave is like a man making me fall in love with him.  I agree with the person who said the best word would be 'inspire' rather than 'make'...it's something hard to explain, but I know that in my past relationships I didn't just wake up one day and say "I want to submit to someone, the first guy who comes along is going to get lucky," but rather it was something that was in me in its potential form, but it takes someone else bringing it out to actualize the potential.

That's just for me though, I'm someone who can't submit outside of a relationship because it feels like meaningless going through the motions type stuff.  So it's a process...and that process could be labeled 'making you mine.'



Making you fall in love. Yep, another good analogy that works really well for me. I hope I can remember all these great quotes. I think I'm going to have to list them all in my profile, and maybe it will help people understand where I'm coming from.



greeneyes1962 -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 9:43:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I didn't want to hijack MadRabbit's thread with this question, so I am starting a new one.

Stephann made the comment that "It isn't her job to be my slave, I see it as my job to make her my slave."  I see others, both dominants and submissives, give the perception that they either want to make a person submit or be made to submit. 

I don't understand this concept and I would appreciate any clarification on what this means to others and how it plays out in their relationship.

Knight's Kyra


    I don't want to be "made" to submit, I have a strong desire to submit. I need to have an
environment/relationship where it's safe for me to submit. Then I can give of myself with
no reservations.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 1:04:46 PM)

~ FR ~

Depending on context, I can see it meaning just about anything.  Master has a girl in addition to me and in talking about her this week, made the comment about "making" her his slave.  Since I know him pretty darn well, and I know his philosophies and how he intensely abhors anything forced against someone's will (yet I know he will push a submissive or slave to her potential, but that's different), I knew that in his case, "make" meant train, teach, create the right environment for her, etc.

Then again, I've seen posts recently about dragging a girl by her hair, kicking and screaming and force her to submit and she will eventually love it and be his slave.  Shit like that makes me shudder.



adoracat -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 2:15:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat

KoM....with all due respect....you aint an asshole, you're the WHOLE ass!

(quote courtesy of my wolf, who says that all the time about himself, then says he doesnt know how i put up with him...)

kitten, who giggles and flees....


LMAO    that is good... and I might add... a mighty nice ass it is that I have too


if i wasnt such a good Daddy's girl, i'd ask for pictures to prove it, but i'll take your word for it.  ;)

kitten, who is always glad to make others laugh



adoracat -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 2:18:45 PM)

after reading the whole thread....

Sir found me, and his entire person inspires me to want to be the best for him that i possibly can be.  i keep trying my best, he keeps being proud of me for trying.  i cant do any better than that...

kitten



KiandPhoenix -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/1/2007 4:16:27 PM)

Thank you for posting this topic. I have been trying to ask the same question for awhile, but never started a thread, for lack of a way to ask.
 
When I was first with Phoenix, I was a vanilla person. We were doing vanilla things when she said to me “I’ve never wanted to submit to anyone so much in my life”.  She says that there is an inherent quality in me that makes her want to submit.
 
I am a believer that if someone wants to submit to me, it should be freely given once I have earned it. We did some playing where I was the first guy in her life to ever successfully pin her down without her letting them. I had to grab her by the hair in a spot she loves, and move her to where I wanted her once. I have had to prove my dominance many times in the beginning, and I can see her testing it on occasion to see if I am still someone who can physically dominate her. Usually when she does the testing I respond by mentally dominating her, instead of physically. I can understand this view.
 
Phoenix is on the other side of the fence. She says the day to say things I have her do is dominance, but does not feel like dominance or submission. She wants to be forced. In my view this is not taking a freely given submission, but just taking submission from someone who may or may not want to give it. Part of her view of it is as play. She has yet to tell me what the rest of it is. I have her working on figuring that out.
 
toservez said
 
quote:

Part of being a slave is being made to feel like a slave and in fact I often comment on this being a weakness with many dominants that often treat slaves as an end product and not a forever work in process when dealing with feelings and atmosphere.

 
I agree about the work in progress. Both myself and Phoenix are constantly changing people, always growing and learning. I will never know enough about BDSM to ever stop learning. I will also grow and change in other ways. As such, I have to constantly change what Phoenix does for me, because my needs change. I also have to adjust to what she needs, because she is always changing as well. I have mentioned before that we are in our fourth incarnation of our relationship. Some of the changes were learning what we wanted, some were because we changed as people. Forcing her to submit does not make her want to do what I ask though. She will learn from me by me teaching her. It isn’t a struggle, but a process.
 
At first we had a communication issue on this topic. She wanted me to be more dominant, but would not say how. I stepped things up a little, and she enjoyed it. When we talked about it though, what she was enjoying was what I was feeling like an asshole about. It was a side product to what I was trying to do thinking it was what she desired. So it worked out by accident. We are still trying to find our fit, but again, it will always be a process, so we never will. We will always grown, learn, develop, and change. We are different people, so it wont ever fit perfectly, but we love the never-ending journey.
 
~Ki



Stephann -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/3/2007 4:14:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Quick reply:

I understood him to mean that it is not her job to act like a slave but his job to create an environment where she becomes one internally or externally. She isn't *acting like* she is *being*. It is no longer up to her, she has become a slave, a state he created and maintains in her. 

Force plays a role in our dynamic, he will impose his will upon me. I'll use the word, it isn't a dirty word. If I could veto him and get away with it, I'd never see him as more dominant than myself. I didn't want the power or choice left in my hands.  I'm not service oriented, I have no desire to serve anyone, but I do have an internal need to be owned and managed..in a word dominated. He has created in me beliefs that are so strong related to his position in my life and rightness of same that I couldn't contemplate leaving him and there isn't anything that I wouldn't at least try to obey in order to remain his and keep the life he provides for me and my kiddo. He inspires and compels that from me but if he was a just a sit back and receive because I'm just so dominant type of guy, we'd have a real problem because my need is be owned, literally and managed on someone elses terms, that is the only thing that inspires submisison, passion, and obedience in me.

We are not all wired the same, didn't we just have a thread where it was concluded there are no "tyical submissives" so it makes sense that we all come from different centrics and have different desires.


Thank you Chewsie, this is an excellent frame of reference.  The difference being an external environment that the submissive willingly chooses to enter over an internal desire/effort by the slave to actively submit is a subtle difference in the nature of slavery.  This isn't to say that one cannot 'dominate' or 'enslave' a willing submissive; only that the effort involved in dominating, is very different from the act of receiving active submission. 

Stephan



RRafe -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/3/2007 4:20:06 AM)

As has been previously stated.
An owner merely provides an enviornment for the owned to come to full expression.

So perhaps it would be less confusing to say "allow",it just doesn't have the macho ring to it, I guess. Ego really screws things up at times. Dropping one's own bullshit insecurity in the dumpster can help with that.



Stephann -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/3/2007 5:38:20 AM)

ORIGINAL: RRafe

As has been previously stated.
An owner merely provides an enviornment for the owned to come to full expression.

Safe to say we have very different perspectives on exactly 'what' an owner does.

I can think of a few people off hand who don't expect their property to come to any sort of 'full expression.'  In fact, I think I'd be disappointed if my property were incapable of her own expression, absent my presence.  Vague statements tend to be...well....vague, though. 

My interest isn't in asserting any sort of expression of ego or machismo.  I'm far more interested in the things I can share with a slave, than I am in playing Master.  Discussing the dynamics behind the M/s relationship ranks with armchair psychology; that doesn't mean it isn't any fun.

Stephan



BeingChewsie -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/3/2007 6:37:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

  This isn't to say that one cannot 'dominate' or 'enslave' a willing submissive; only that the effort involved in dominating, is very different from the act of receiving active submission. 

Stephan


Hi Stephan,

I was certainly willing, willing to be dominated anyway. Dominated into submission and held there by someone with a will stronger than my own. Someone bigger and badder..while some of that is physical, much of it is psychological and emotional. Service is a killer for me, I prefer to be the one being served and believe me if I could walk all over R, if I could veto him, he'd be scrubbing the bathroom floors in a pink tu-tu and I'd be on the beach all day. I am a tough nut to crack. If a man is more powerful than I am and can put me in a position under his authority and keep me there, I'll respond extremely submissively. I won't be able to do enough for him, I'll do what I have to do to remain his, like I do now. If a man is thinking because I identify as a submissive woman that I'm going to be jumping through hoops to "serve" in any fashion or jumping through hoops to obey him if he doesn't keep me somewhere under his right foot..He might want to get a pink tu-tu because one of us will be wearing it(hint it won't be me). I don't make a good volunteer, I'm much more likely to turn the tables and be the one sitting back and receiving.. [;)].



hardbodysub -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/3/2007 8:33:38 AM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
She isn't *acting like* she is *being*.


Yes! Not having to "act" is crucial to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
The difference being an external environment that the submissive willingly chooses to enter over an internal desire/effort by the slave to actively submit is a subtle difference in the nature of slavery.  This isn't to say that one cannot 'dominate' or 'enslave' a willing submissive; only that the effort involved in dominating, is very different from the act of receiving active submission. 

Stephan


YES, and YES! Thank you, Stephann for phrasing it so well!



ElusiveSpirit2 -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/3/2007 6:32:47 PM)

Hello,

I totally understand what you are saying.  Well said.

El



Stephann -> RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive (9/6/2007 7:30:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Hi Stephan,

I was certainly willing, willing to be dominated anyway. Dominated into submission and held there by someone with a will stronger than my own. Someone bigger and badder..while some of that is physical, much of it is psychological and emotional. Service is a killer for me, I prefer to be the one being served and believe me if I could walk all over R, if I could veto him, he'd be scrubbing the bathroom floors in a pink tu-tu and I'd be on the beach all day. I am a tough nut to crack. If a man is more powerful than I am and can put me in a position under his authority and keep me there, I'll respond extremely submissively. I won't be able to do enough for him, I'll do what I have to do to remain his, like I do now. If a man is thinking because I identify as a submissive woman that I'm going to be jumping through hoops to "serve" in any fashion or jumping through hoops to obey him if he doesn't keep me somewhere under his right foot..He might want to get a pink tu-tu because one of us will be wearing it(hint it won't be me). I don't make a good volunteer, I'm much more likely to turn the tables and be the one sitting back and receiving.. [;)].


Hi Chewsie,

I had to chew on this a couple days (ba-doom CHIK) but wanted to pose this question to you:  Knowing that your nature is such, that you prefer being served, and can easily have men in a pink tu-tu scrubbing your floor, what drives to you to find someone who (often brutally it seems) does exactly the opposite?  Why seek a relationship where you are conscripted to do exactly what you wish someone were doing to you?

Stephan



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