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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/30/2007 4:03:48 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you for the compliment..... Youre not so bad yourself

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/30/2007 9:58:00 PM   
slaveluci


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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Are you able to split your submissive personality from your personal idea of 'good and wrong'? 

Absolutely not.  This is why it was so important to me to make sure the Master I became slave to shared the same ideas of "good and wrong" as I do.  I couldn't serve One who insisted on different morals and values than the ones I hold.  I could not look up to or respect One who would force me to go against mine.
quote:

Considering this, do you think one can only be a true "slave" or "submissive" if one is without responsibility?

Again, absolutely not.  Being a slave has brought about many more responsibilities than I previously had.  I couldn't be fulfilled living a life where I had no responsibility...........luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/30/2007 10:51:05 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
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From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

This question derives from the Mother Theresa thread.


Ack! Nooooooooo. I'm not reading that monster! lol Having read the rest of your question though, I don't think it's going to be necessary.

quote:

I am interested in hearing how submissives feel about their thought patterns. I am curious about how submission influences the decision process.


For me, this is quite easy to answer. I have been given the autonomy to make decisions every day. My decisions are based on what I know of Himself (which is extensive after all the years we've been together), knowing our relationship and knowing the desires he has for the direction he wishes it to go. My decisions are based on knowledge, my ability, and, when necessary, I will ask for his feedback in order to help me make a decision. Most of my decisions are geared towards improving our life, our relationship and our joy within one another.

quote:

 I am eager to hear whether sexual submission influences intellectual decisions. Does your personal morals influence your life decision?


Yes, my submission influences my intellectual decisions as any decision I make may be veto'd by Himself. No, my personal morals do not influence life decisions. His will supercedes my personal morals. As he has more morals than I do, it's probably better that way. He protects the rest of humanity from me.

quote:

Does your sexual status as a submissive influence your personal morals?


Not in the least.

quote:

Are you able to split your submissive personality from your personal idea of 'good and wrong'? 


Absolutely and it's not that hard but then I'm not that good.  I don't care an awful lot about right and wrong being as I think that's way too subjective to get all worked up over. I look at it this way: if there are 'universal wrongs', then Michaels' going to be into the fact they are 'wrong' as well, so what difference does what I think or believe about it make? It's universal. If, however, right and wrong on a given issue is subjective, then his will wins. It's as simple as that.

quote:

(I know I couldn't: some would call me 'an occasional submissive as a result', because I have a child's life to consider before my own.).


I hear you but I don't have responsibilities to any rugrats so get to be a stinker if I wanna.  If I 'did' have such a responsibility life would be completely different.

quote:

Considering this, do you think one can only be a true "slave" or "submissive" if one is without responsibility?


I don't see why not. I'm not so sure I'd consider them an adult if they were without responsibilty, but the one thing has nothing to do with the other. There are loads of slaves, submissives, Masters, Tops and vanillas around who function without having a wit of logic or responsibility.

quote:

All in all, I'd like to hear about everything that may be thrown this way.


Didn't your mama teach you to be careful what you ask for?

quote:

PS: please refer to Level's Theresa thread, and more specifically, to the discussion between SusanofO and Rule - and others.


RED!

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 2:39:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Free will?  I'm not going back to that monster Mother Theresa thread so I may not be addressing what you are asking.  I can't believe that anyone doesn't think they have free will.


Thinking one has free will and having free will are two different things.

The free market works by making people think they have free will but the whole object is to make people want what the market offers and it works. Patriotism and belief in national myth is another example of how mass thinking works. Think of Brave New World and 1984, they are classic novels because they explore the struggle between free will in the context of the dumb masses. Just look at the threasd on CM, particularly the mass hysteria that is sometimes generated about Islam.

We all like to think we have free will but a cursory look at society supports the opposite view, we don't have free will or we only have free will within a narrow spectrum of thought and behaviour.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 2:50:23 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		It isnt the market that constricts free will in the way that you mention, it`s the need to survive. If we didnt have a free market economy and all lived on our own land, we would still need to provide food and shelter.
I agree political and religious systems impose some restraints, if they didn`t the result would be anarchy, basically though, people do have free will. Even if there is a rule of law, we have the right to live by it, or break it and face the consequences of our actions.

We also have free will to stray off topic

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 2:57:08 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Politesub, there is no law saying one has to believe in national myth, patriotism and the believe in god, yet millions of people do.

Why is the west overwhelmingly Christian? You aren't telling me it is free thought and everybody has studied all the religions and made a decision. They are indoctrinated and don't question their beliefs. They can't because most would find that we know nothing about what Jesus actually said and all we know about him was passed down to us by third parties who are very questionable sources. Hell, look how many people believe in the literal truth of the bible. You can't believe in that and claim you aren't indoctrinated.

But on a lighter note, look at fashion. Fashion is the antithesis of free thought and works like a virus.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/31/2007 2:58:44 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 3:59:00 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
I am interested in hearing how submissives feel about their thought patterns. I am curious about how submission influences the decision process. I am eager to hear whether sexual submission influences intellectual decisions. Does your personal morals influence your life decision? Does your sexual status as a submissive influence your personal morals?


As for the decision process, Master makes the final decisions.  I have some autonomy, as he trusts that how I think is in line with what he wants.  If ever I am unsure, I ask and he decides.  He also influences and has authority over my intellectual decisions to the same degree.  While he has no problem with my having differences of opinion from him, and while he allows me certain autonomy to make my own decisions in situations, if he decided for me to do something against what I agreed with intellectually, I would do it.  He's the boss.

The same applies toward morals.  Fortunately for me, he respects my moral code.  Only once has he had me do something that felt inherently wrong, knowing it made me feel wrong, and I did it, and it did not feel good.  It affected no one but myself and not in a harmful way.  I did it because he wanted it, and that was reason enough.

While I consider my status as his slave to not solely be sexual, my personal morals are my personal morals and he allows me to have them.  They occasionally morph and evolve over time, but that's a result of life and growth.  I happen to love his moral code and have learned a lot from him, so I'd have to say he has influenced mine in a good way.

However, I also want to point out that my status as a slave is relevant to him and not necessarily to others.  In other words, he owns my submission and no one else gets it.  So when it comes to a hearty debate, be it with a submissive, a dominant, a vanilla, or anyone else, I am simply me the person.

quote:


Are you able to split your submissive personality from your personal idea of 'good and wrong'? (I know I couldn't: some would call me 'an occasional submissive as a result', because I have a child's life to consider before my own.).


I see myself as his slave.  I trust that what he wants is the overall right.  9.5 times out of 10 he is right, so I go with what he says, despite what I might personally feel at the time.  I am always free to voice my concerns, and he takes them into account before his final decision.


quote:


Considering this, do you think one can only be a true "slave" or "submissive" if one is without responsibility?


I'm not sure what you mean by this.  If one has no responsibilities whatsoever?  I could not be a slave to my Master if that were the case.  I have a responsibility to him, and to whatever else he deems I have responsibilities to (which happens to be a hell of a lot).  But he oversees my conduct in all things, and while he has given me autonomy to conduct myself in the way he has taught me to, he can overrule or veto any decision I wish to make.

quote:


PS: please refer to Level's Theresa thread, and more specifically, to the discussion between SusanofO and Rule - and others.


I read enough of that thread to know it bugged me that her name continued to be misspelled and then stopped.  It's Teresa (no h).  Rule blocked me ages ago, publically stating I am illiterate who can never be taught, so I don't pay much mind to his opinions

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 4:15:36 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Politesub, there is no law saying one has to believe in national myth, patriotism and the believe in god, yet millions of people do.

Why is the west overwhelmingly Christian? You aren't telling me it is free thought and everybody has studied all the religions and made a decision. They are indoctrinated and don't question their beliefs. They can't because most would find that we know nothing about what Jesus actually said and all we know about him was passed down to us by third parties who are very questionable sources. Hell, look how many people believe in the literal truth of the bible. You can't believe in that and claim you aren't indoctrinated.

But on a lighter note, look at fashion. Fashion is the antithesis of free thought and works like a virus.


Is wanting to conform the same as not having free will ?
Maybe you are right as there is no other explaination as to why i ever wore flares.

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 4:44:18 AM   
feastie


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Status: offline 		Faith in what is tangible is much easier to maintain than faith in something that is intangible.  Having faith is a choice.  It really doesn't matter whether one has been taught to have faith or not.  A person either will or won't.  Churches have as many people paying lip service to faith as to those who actually embrace it. 

That said, even being a naturally and nuturally submissive person doesn't mean I don't have free will.  I still must be and am able to make my own decisions.  I must be able to use my knowledge, my personal moral compass and good, old-fashioned common sense to make those decisions.  It's necessary for me to find a dominant that shares my ideas, beliefs and values. 

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 4:50:30 AM   
Twicehappy2x


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I am curious about how submission influences the decision process. I am eager to hear whether sexual submission influences intellectual decisions. Does your personal morals influence your life decision? Does your sexual status as a submissive influence your personal morals? 

I am very interested to hear whether subsmissives and slaves feel they have free will.


Free will, i think most submissives have it, i think 99% of the time we submit that will to our dominants. There are exceptions though.
 
I am druid, that means respecting all life and the natural order of things.
 
I will not kill even the smallest bug without cause. Scooter could order me to kill bugs but i would not. There i would be exercising free will.
 
He could order me to do a lot of things i would consider wrong.
 
This is the tricky part, if i refused i would be disobeying which would make us both unhappy. That is why i think most of us pick partners whose ethics closely match our own. Thereby avoiding doing things we would consider unethical or immoral.
 

_____________________________

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 4:51:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Is wanting to conform the same as not having free will ?
Maybe you are right as there is no other explaination as to why i ever wore flares.


One can use ones free will to conform but when 99.9% of society conforms, one begins to wonder where the free will is.

As for wearing flares, I take that as my point proven. I put my wearing flares down to temporary insanity when I look at old photos of myself.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 6:06:03 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		I think Politesub53 makes a point I agree with. IMO,wanting to conform is a decision that could just as easily be made based on a lot of examination of an issue - (or the character of any particular Dominant, and a decision to get into a relationship with them in the first palce, as their submissive) -a decision that requires free will, at least as much as it could have been made due to unthinking adherance based on mere vulnerability.

I do agree with him, too about people doing it due to a need to survive; and those reasons might be psychological ones, but that doesn't always mean the people making them are victims of unthinking adherance to an idea or a person. It could mean they really have decided that with an idea or person in their life, they believe they've found a way to live that enhances their life more than if that person, or acting and-on or believing X about a particular issue wasn't  in their life. 

Actually, I think the former seems more likely for some people, but that overall, it does depend on the indivudual person's personality and their motives for wanting to conform (which is a pretty individual thing, IMO).

It can't all be chalked up to simple "indoctrination". I very much agree with feastie on this (re: Having faith in something less tangible). People examine ideas, (and other people, too) to what appears to be a greater or lesser degree - and decide which ones to devote themselves to, IMO.

Some maybe appear to just not do that (maybe they really are doing it, maybe they aren't - a lot certainly appear to not be deciding much)

But, you'd have to talk to them on an individual basis to be able to really tell why they were conforming, wouldn't you? You might be able to make probable, or even mostly accurate assumptions about their motives, if you really knew them (or were extra "tuned in" to them, or in some cases, if you were able to make accurate judgments about their motives based on their most superficial actions, for whatever reason - some people, IMO, really do seem more able to make accurate guesses about other people's motives, (for whatever reason), they may just be better judges of character BUT - it would still be what is sometimes called an "educated guess".

In any case, it still, IMO takes Free Will to be able to conform. Some people do it because (it appears) they think something really is a good idea (at the time), not because they simply haven't thought it over. Some (apparently) don't do that.

Plus, IMO, people can, and definitely do, IMO, change over time.

What I wanted in 1973, isn't necessarily what I want in my life today. 

And how often have we heard the disucssion about a Dominant being either necessary for, or helping, a submissive's "growth" (and vice-versa)?


- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/31/2007 6:51:54 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 7:14:15 AM   
toservez


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From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Hi toservez. What I am trying to touch on is multifold.

I have just realised that I touched upon something that is far too big for me.



Maybe you were asking how does being submissive and over the course of years affects our values, opinions and how we just think in general?

My answer would be pretty much the same that submissive does not really come into play. All human being are influenced by their environment, experiences and interactions with other human beings. So of course who we are with day to day and what are experiences are transforms our thoughts and beliefs but I do not at all believe it is based in being submissive but just the fact we are human beings.

It can be an easy and romantic answer to say that my Master has opened my eyes and have me questioned and maybe change my beliefs in things over time and it actually will happen but I think if I was in a regular relationship and over time with a regular man I would also be exposed to these things and change.

I agree with BitaTrouble that day to day life right and wrongs are injected into so many things that have nothing to do with right or wrong but individual opinion and being submissive to your one is confronting these misconceptions and learning/training your mind to not think in that nature. I do not agree with BitaTrouble that thoughts and concerns for values and beliefs of mine can be basically tossed away as my Master is a protector of those. I understand the reality that to be with someone that you pretty much have to share common values and beliefs so it is realistically possible to live that way but think it is a little too cute to say you do not process or think about these things as all it does take is for your dominant to change a big one on you to where all of a sudden you are thinking about something of that nature.




_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 7:20:29 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		Quick reply:

I have not read the other thread, so forgive me kittinSol if this is way off what you mean.

I'm not sure being submissive to men more powerful than myself impacts heavily on life outside a dynamic involving that. However, other parts of my personality certainly do. I don't like to eat at the top of the food chain, I don't like to be in charge, I don't like being the decision maker, I don't like much responsibility, I don't like the spotlight on me, I like being isolated. I don't think those things are what make me submissive but being submissive is a benefit it makes it easier to get my need to not be in charge, not make many decisions, and not have much responsibility met. 



_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 7:45:30 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I think Politesub53 makes a point I agree with. IMO,wanting to conform is a decision that could just as easily be made based on a lot of examination of an issue - (or the character of any particular Dominant, and a decision to get into a relationship with them in the first palce, as their submissive) -a decision that requires free will, at least as much as it could have been made due to unthinking adherance based on mere vulnerability.

I do agree with him, too about people doing it due to a need to survive; and those reasons might be psychological ones, but that doesn't always mean the people making them are victims of unthinking adherance to an idea or a person. It could mean they really have decided that with an idea or person in their life, they believe they've found a way to live that enhances their life more than if that person, or acting and-on or believing X about a particular issue wasn't  in their life. 



Conformity is normal for people. People even conform when it is not in their best interests to conform. People appear to need leaders even if it is to follow them to their certain death. History is full of examples of people conforming to their own detriment. It is a well know psychological phenomenon that people prefer to conform rather than act out of sync with the group. Now people may have freedom of thought and free will but acting upon it is another matter altogether. People are social animals and there in lies the problem, if free will requires the ability to act upon it, then humansd aren't very good in that department. We can all say I'm a free thinker but I prefer to conform because of XYZ and it would be a far more believable if it wasn't such and overwhelming majority that conforms in this way.

It is uncomfortable for us to think we are incapable of acting upon our free will, especially in a culture that boasts constantly about freedom but the evidence suggests, very few people are capable.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 9:40:43 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I think Politesub53 makes a point I agree with. IMO,wanting to conform is a decision that could just as easily be made based on a lot of examination of an issue - (or the character of any particular Dominant, and a decision to get into a relationship with them in the first palce, as their submissive) -a decision that requires free will, at least as much as it could have been made due to unthinking adherance based on mere vulnerability.

I do agree with him, too about people doing it due to a need to survive; and those reasons might be psychological ones, but that doesn't always mean the people making them are victims of unthinking adherance to an idea or a person. It could mean they really have decided that with an idea or person in their life, they believe they've found a way to live that enhances their life more than if that person, or acting and-on or believing X about a particular issue wasn't  in their life. 



Conformity is normal for people. People even conform when it is not in their best interests to conform. People appear to need leaders even if it is to follow them to their certain death. History is full of examples of people conforming to their own detriment. It is a well know psychological phenomenon that people prefer to conform rather than act out of sync with the group. Now people may have freedom of thought and free will but acting upon it is another matter altogether. People are social animals and there in lies the problem, if free will requires the ability to act upon it, then humansd aren't very good in that department. We can all say I'm a free thinker but I prefer to conform because of XYZ and it would be a far more believable if it wasn't such and overwhelming majority that conforms in this way.

It is uncomfortable for us to think we are incapable of acting upon our free will, especially in a culture that boasts constantly about freedom but the evidence suggests, very few people are capable.



You see this illustrated quite often and clearly if you follow stocks, currencies etc. People tend move with the herd.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 10:07:44 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		meatcleaver: Yes, you're right, and I think it is relative to a POV. History is full of examples of courage, and social courage can be a pretty tough nut if one sees: Martin Luther King, Ghandi, war heroes, etc. It's pretty relative to one's POV (to me).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/31/2007 10:18:49 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 11:28:56 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Rule wasn't interested in a submissive mind. He was interested in baiting Susan. That pretty much goes for most of the posts ... did anyone else notice that very few reasoned arguments were answered or responded to at all?
 
On topic, I think this is an individual thing ... not only with the person involved, but within each individual relationship scenario. People submit, or not, when and where they want to, or if the spirit moves them. Michael Vick looks pretty dominant in the huddle, and pretty damn submissive in front of a judge.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 11:52:50 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

You see this illustrated quite often and clearly if you follow stocks, currencies etc. People tend move with the herd.


..possibly, but another possibility is that the 'herd' is an illusion caused by there having to be a hump in the probability curve.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
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RE: What is a submissive mind? - 8/31/2007 12:50:12 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Politesub, there is no law saying one has to believe in national myth, patriotism and the believe in god, yet millions of people do.

Why is the west overwhelmingly Christian? You aren't telling me it is free thought and everybody has studied all the religions and made a decision. They are indoctrinated and don't question their beliefs. They can't because most would find that we know nothing about what Jesus actually said and all we know about him was passed down to us by third parties who are very questionable sources. Hell, look how many people believe in the literal truth of the bible. You can't believe in that and claim you aren't indoctrinated.

But on a lighter note, look at fashion. Fashion is the antithesis of free thought and works like a virus.


Nail on the head. People group together, they need a shared belonging/idea/consciousness........the target is irrelevant; the objective is conformity.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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