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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:29:32 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Now that it has been brought up, I'll ask others to expand on it as well, if they don't mind. The blood brought up internally is absorbed back into the body. Perhaps this makes it less precious than the blood which is allowed to escape? We still retain ownership of the blood which lies within. The blood with flows from fresh wounds has gone from us and 'that' particular blood won't ever return. Does the idea of 'loss' effect the process you go through when determining whether or not to limit blood play activities or is strictly the omg/ick/no fucking way etc etc factor?

Celeste, this is an interesting concept - loss versus re-absorption.

If I may relay an experience I had (not like you can say no, I'm already typing it), Master once cut my skin, intentionally. As the blood trickled from me, he slowly and gently scraped his knife up along the wound, so that it dripped onto its blade. And then he held the blade to my mouth and pressed it on my lower lip. I opened my mouth and he slid the blade in so I could lick it clean.

It was an intensely erotic and intimate encounter. He can take life from me, yet he feeds it back to me. It is all his. The power is his. He can pull from me what he wants - my very blood - and yet rather than let it fall to nothingness, he caught it, owned it, and gave it back to me on his blade. He owns my very blood, and allows me to have it. He can take it away any time, but he will always feed me life. It as profound for me, and significant. It was an amazing moment of bonding. For us both, I believe.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 21

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:30:41 PM

SunnyTawse

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
Status: offline

Hey, why I didn't get the little box around the quote??

(in reply to SunnyTawse)

Post #: 22

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:57:40 PM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

That is exactly where I was hoping the conversation would go. It is the attraction for me, the fact that they have shed this blood FOR ME. They don't get it back, I use it and then let it go to waste after I am through. I haven't always enjoyed bloodplay, it was on my list of limits mostly due to lack of learning up to that point. Now that I have added the skill sets, I play with blood and enjoy it.

I enjoy the spiritual aspects of the life force imagery, as well.

My sentiments exactly. It's definitely a ritual act and awfully sacred to me when someone sheds blood purposefully for my enjoyment.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 23

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 4:00:32 PM

DreamyLadySnow

Posts: 359
Joined: 1/23/2005
Status: offline

SunnyTawse did bring up a very good point - cuts are a potential infection route. Blood could be contaminated and needs to be handled properly. Cuts need to be handled properly. I'm not going to be exposed to Hep C because I bruised someone, but if I cut them? Watch out.

Personally, I love it - love to watch it flow; love to fingerpaint in it; love to squish the skin to get more out.
Yumm yumm yumm...

Let it flow, let it flow, let it flow....

LS

(in reply to SunnyTawse)

Post #: 24

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 4:14:06 PM

Phin

Posts: 1802
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SunnyTawse

As a Dominant, my objection to blood play is twofold, that I expose myself to blood-borne pathogens and I increase the danger of bleeding and infection for my submissive.

These are my objections as well. I understand that the dangers from cum, either male or female, are just as high, but it is a matter of taste. I may eventually do blood play, it is not a hard limit for me anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

It as profound for me, and significant. It was an amazing moment of bonding. For us both, I believe.

yours is a wonderful story and I truely enjoyed reading it. thank you for sharing.

_____________________________

"Isn't wonderful when our bruises show what we hide in the back of our heads?"Fayetteville band, Nephilym

"He is my angel, my devil, my naughty boy, but above anything else my Master"My girl sin

(in reply to SunnyTawse)

Post #: 25

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 4:50:44 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

If I may relay an experience I had (not like you can say no, I'm already typing it), Master once cut my skin, intentionally. As the blood trickled from me, he slowly and gently scraped his knife up along the wound, so that it dripped onto its blade. And then he held the blade to my mouth and pressed it on my lower lip. I opened my mouth and he slid the blade in so I could lick it clean.

It was an intensely erotic and intimate encounter. He can take life from me, yet he feeds it back to me. It is all his. The power is his. He can pull from me what he wants - my very blood - and yet rather than let it fall to nothingness, he caught it, owned it, and gave it back to me on his blade. He owns my very blood, and allows me to have it. He can take it away any time, but he will always feed me life. It as profound for me, and significant. It was an amazing moment of bonding. For us both, I believe.

Owned, your description here was very powerful. I felt it, saw it and could almost taste it. Thank-you for sharing!

To answer Bita’s question; there are people who literally faint at the sight of blood outside the body. They have no control over it; as if they go into a state of shock even if it isn’t their own blood. In their minds, a droplet becomes a river and is viewed all out of proportion. When it comes to bruises they probably are able to overlook that it is blood pooling within the muscle tissue.
Another thought is that deliberate cutting is invasive and may be just too much of a good thing for some.
Sometimes limits are not based on rational thoughts, rendering it more difficult to apply logic to engender a change of mind.
One of the things I like about wiitwd is so much of it is messy and we, or at least I, seem to revel in the primal ooze.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 26

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 11:47:58 PM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

Bitatrouble, this really is one of the more thought provoking posts I've seen on the board so far. Granted, my time on the boards has been marginal, but still. This post made me stop and really THINK. I might even list this post down on the other post about "What Makes you Think."

I see your correlation between bruising and bloodletting (in the fetish sense, not the literal historical sense).

I hate to use religious references, because of the chance of offending someone, but when I think of the symbolism inherent in how various cultures over the years have viewed blood; it is hard not to reference back to religious practices. Please hear me out. I'm not attempting to proselytize, I promise!

It isn't just blood that is considered sacred. When you hear scriptures about Christ and how he was bruised for our transgressions - there is a strong sense that his sacrifice, his flesh, his surrender - and ultimately the spilling of his blood saved mankind of all sins. Ok, this is admittedly an extreme example of how strong and deeply ingrained the sacredness of blood, and conversely the taboo of blood spilling flows through many people. That was just the most obvious example. As Archer stated, blood and/or fluids has been considered the "life force"in many cultures throughout the ages.

I doubt most who list it as a hard limit, really even know why they do so - except its the popular trend these days. If you were to ask them, they would say things like we've heard, "I don't want to take the risk of blood born pathogens" (definitely a reasonable safety caution!) but I wonder sometimes if it might be a reason that runs deeper than that. Especially when they are intimate with their play partner.

Why most people wouldn't consider bruising to be a part of blood play might fall under the driving fascination of their fetish. Most who have a blood fetish get that visceral feeling from the site of blood flowing, its scent, its texture and/or its taste. Because the fetish isn't satisfied by the manipulation of blood beneath the flesh, it simply doesn't do it for them the way actual flow, or drop or taste, or site or smell of blood does.

I hope this came out at least partially coherent. I should never post at nearly 3 am. If I sound like a total raving lunatic....spank me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

If I may relay an experience I had (not like you can say no, I'm already typing it), Master once cut my skin, intentionally. As the blood trickled from me, he slowly and gently scraped his knife up along the wound, so that it dripped onto its blade. And then he held the blade to my mouth and pressed it on my lower lip. I opened my mouth and he slid the blade in so I could lick it clean.

It was an intensely erotic and intimate encounter. He can take life from me, yet he feeds it back to me. It is all his. The power is his. He can pull from me what he wants - my very blood - and yet rather than let it fall to nothingness, he caught it, owned it, and gave it back to me on his blade. He owns my very blood, and allows me to have it. He can take it away any time, but he will always feed me life. It as profound for me, and significant. It was an amazing moment of bonding. For us both, I believe.

Owned, your description here was very powerful. I felt it, saw it and could almost taste it. Thank-you for sharing!

To answer Bita’s question; there are people who literally faint at the sight of blood outside the body. They have no control over it; as if they go into a state of shock even if it isn’t their own blood. In their minds, a droplet becomes a river and is viewed all out of proportion. When it comes to bruises they probably are able to overlook that it is blood pooling within the muscle tissue.
Another thought is that deliberate cutting is invasive and may be just too much of a good thing for some.
Sometimes limits are not based on rational thoughts, rendering it more difficult to apply logic to engender a change of mind.
One of the things I like about wiitwd is so much of it is messy and we, or at least I, seem to revel in the primal ooze.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 27

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 12:11:07 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow
I'm not going to be exposed to Hep C because I bruised someone, but if I cut them? Watch out.

i am not picking on you specifically, but you were the last person to mention it...so...just...using your quote as an example...

people say blood and hep c all the time...but i almost never hear semen and hep b...i had a scare with this a year ago because an ex contacted me to let me know he was going through the hepatitis b treatment...and me, being me, i looked it up, and i found out that, unlike hep c, it is not only possible, it is highly likely that if he had it when we were together, i had it...hepatitis b is sexually transmitted along with other methods and its pretty darned scary too, asymptomatic for a while if i remember correctly...thankfully the day i found out what he had i went to a doc and they tested me and i was clean...they did a whole battery of tests and the only thing i had was a yeast infection...woohoo for me...

and umm so as not to make this a thread hijack...
i have experienced the spiritual aspect of blood letting...my cutting was a spiritual experience...but not because of who was doing it...it was partially the design being done...but mostly a whole lot of committing myself to my faith...i jokingly tell people that i build up too much blood in my system...and i used to have to cut myself to let it out, now i get other people to do it...but i kind of wonder if that has some kind of truth in it...not in a physical but in a spiritual sense...and i had a lot more typed out but it was getting into some way deep psychological and spiritual shit that ya'll probably don't want to hear about so if you do...click on my name and drop me an email on the other side...

chelle...who's not holding her breath

edited to add: its becoming more and more common, from what i have seen (some people have done it for a loooong time) to have fluid bonding (blood, semen, vaginal fluid exchange) be something you do after you have known eachother for a while, had std tests done, negotiated things and basically made yourself safe physically, emotionally and mentally....

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/2/2007 12:14:05 AM >

(in reply to DreamyLadySnow)

Post #: 28

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 12:47:38 AM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Niether my Master nor I are squimish about blood, so i fore see that taking us to some interesting places

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to SunnyTawse)

Post #: 29

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 7:13:47 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

I don't remember if I put blood on my limits list. I'll have to go re-visit my list.

There are a couple of reasons why I would have blood on my limit list. First, I have a history of cutting behaviors, which I very successfully hid from everyone for YEARS. I'd rather not go back into that behavior if I can at all help it. While there are times when I'm at a place where it wouldn't trigger those emotions and the resulting behaviors, it's just not wise for me to engage in it at this time....yet.

I would agree with the sacredness of giving my blood to another. I can't imagine doing this with someone I'm not willing to be very intimate with. Letting someone cut me just because they like to, without having a very deep relationship with them, would feel like I was negating a very sacred part of who I am. But that's just me.

Just my thoughts.......

_____________________________

"cooking is my kink"

Collared June 19, 2008
(uncollared 12/21/09 with his death. RIP my Santa)

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 30

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 7:36:02 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

This is the argument that Himself used and I did give it consideration but had to discard it because there is about as much chance of catching something from cum as there is from blood and, with exceptions of course, I don't believe the majority list cumming as a limit. ::chuckles:: I could be wrong about that though.

Blood transfusions have an estimated 90% probability of transmitting HIV-1, while needle sharing is slightly riskier (0.67%) than unprotected anal sex (0.5%). Oral sex is about 0.01% or so. So I would not say that cum is even remotely comparable to blood in terms of risk of exposure, and I strongly suspect the same is the case for a variety of other diseases. There is a reason why I carry gloves and a mouth guard: I don't want to risk exposure when helping someone who is bleeding.

quote:

Owned, wait till I start that scat limit thread. Mr. Wonderful is gonna call Himself and request me to be beaten half to death and then never allowed to post to the boards again! ::laughs::

Looking forward to that thread. It's always confused me how come our venerable (pardon the pun) subculture ostracizes a subgroup that may already be struggling with coming to terms with who they are and what they feel, simply on the ground that it is a thing that squicks people. Smoking squicks me, but I don't call for the artillery over it.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 31

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 7:39:40 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Blood as well as some other body fluids have been seen as "Life Force" in cultures for ages. Cutting someone lets that life force outside of their body, bruising does not. This is why you have "Blood sacrifices" in many old cultures.

"In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying:
This cup is the new covenant in my blood.
Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

1 Corinthians 11:25

Just a related thought...

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 32

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 8:04:49 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

There are a couple of reasons why I would have blood on my limit list. First, I have a history of cutting behaviors, which I very successfully hid from everyone for YEARS. I'd rather not go back into that behavior if I can at all help it. While there are times when I'm at a place where it wouldn't trigger those emotions and the resulting behaviors, it's just not wise for me to engage in it at this time....yet.

i fully understand this concern and had it myself for a long time...then i had someone i trusted enough...to do it for the right reasons, at the right time in a controlled manner...for me it was not about punishing myself, it was about pleasure...i was not when i was upset, it was after a period of meditation (calming breathing and opening myself up to good energy or God if that works for you)...it was not about me controlling the blade, it was about someone i trusted with my life controlling it...personally, it is not something you do with that hot guy at the convention in the leather pants...no matter how hot he is in those leather pants...(trust me, he's sweating his ass off) but rather...for me...well read my earlier post...

chelle...

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 33

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 8:09:50 AM

LATEXBABY64

Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline

Damn Vampires where is my crosses and steaks and holy water

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 34

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 8:24:42 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

do crosses, slabs of meat (or did you mean stakes) and holy water really help with phlebotomists?? cause those people annoy the fuck out of me every time i go to the doc...

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)

Post #: 35

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 8:42:10 AM

wittman40

Posts: 29
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

Aswad,

Sorry but your facts are wrong. We all have microscopic cuts all over our bodies, mouths etc. If you take the cum or blood of someone whose cum or blood carries infections into your mouth or any other orifice then you have a pretty high risk of infection.

Most of the studies into this topic show low rates of infection for oral sex mostly because they don't differentiate between oral sex with infected and non-infected partners because by the time the study is made they can't go back and find out which of these ( often virtually anonymous partners ) had HIV etc. Obviously though the risk of infection when involved with an infected person is highest with unprotected anal sex, less for vaginal and less again for oral BUT to classify any of those acts as low risk is, I think, misleading.

It would be better, for such an important topic, to say that it is LOWER risk but that the key to being safe is only to play with people whom you can trust and have been recently tested.

I don't particularly like taking such a strong line on this as I'm mostly a live and let live kind of Dom BUT I've had to, personally, break the news of their HIV and Hep infection to dozens of people in my time so I take a pretty dim view of information which may give people a false sense of security. Telling dozens of people they are going to die in the next little while tends to bring home the seriousness of things pretty quickly.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 36

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 9:06:22 AM

SmokingGun82

Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Oral sex is about 0.01% or so. So I would not say that cum is even remotely comparable to blood in terms of risk of exposure, and I strongly suspect the same is the case for a variety of other diseases.

The latest numbers I could find puts the estimate closer to eight percent... still low, but nowhere near as low as one-one hundredth of a percent. Of course, I'm not crazy about the wording the CDC uses (probably infected), so take it as you will.

It's still lower risk than anal or vaginal sex, or blood exposure... but not quite the insignificant level that one-one hundredth of a percent would be.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/oralsexqa.htm

_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 37

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 9:09:30 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

Damn Vampires where is my crosses and steaks and holy water

Well, I guess a coherent argument could be made for the apostles as the first human vampires.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)

Post #: 38

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 9:19:41 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Low risk isn't exactly what I said, although it may seem like it.

Considering the percentage of the population that has it (let's go overboard and say 1%), and assuming a higher-than-given risk of infection (let's say as much as 0.4% for the sake of argument), you still end up at a risk (1 in 400.000 per blowjob) that is rather comparable to California highways, provided I correctly remember the figures for the latter (1 in 4.000 annually, equating to about two blowjobs a week for equivalent risk).

On the level you're working at (medical professional, I assume) these numbers add up.
On the individual level, it is a calculated risk, and sometimes you lose.
How about providing us all with better statistics?

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to wittman40)

Post #: 39

RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 9:24:21 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

The latest numbers I could find puts the estimate closer to eight percent... still low, but nowhere near as low as one-one hundredth of a percent. Of course, I'm not crazy about the wording the CDC uses (probably infected), so take it as you will.

You are misreading the statistics, I think. To my reading, it states that about 8% of those who were infected had contracted it via that route, not that there was a cumulative 8% risk per blowjob, which would be far higher than even needle sharing by about an order of magnitude. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to SmokingGun82)

Post #: 40

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