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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 11:21:30 AM

wittman40

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Well, I think that a 5 to 10% figure of a blowjob to completion on an infected person is reasonable from what I've read on the subject.

As to needle sharing... If you share a needle with an infected person then your probability of getting infected is extremely high. I've known two nurses and a doctor who contracted HIV from needlesticks. In all three cases the individual the needle was initially in was HIV positive. I've only known ONE person who got a needlestick from an HIV positive person who didn't get it and they only had the barest of nicks on their finger and underwent immediate ( within 6 hours ) and intensive anti-retroviral therapy, immunoglobulins and all sorts of fancy stuff a psychiatrist really doesn't know much about ;).

Basically though everyone is mixing up the risks from being exposed to members of the community whose risk you don't know and risk from exposure to a person who is infected.

Since very few people in the community ( generally ) are infected the risk of having sex with someone with HIV is relatively low if you sleep with 20 or 30 people ( relatively low being a figure open to all sorts of interpretation) BUT if you sleep with them and get seminal or blood exchange then your odds of catching HIV vary from about 5% with a bj up to 80% or so with unprotected anal sex PER ACT.

So, the safest way to play it is just not to play until you know their status. Most people are negative so most play is safe but if they are positive then play with them is mostly deadly. That's the simplest way to put it.

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 11:29:45 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Celeste, this is an interesting concept - loss versus re-absorption.

If I may relay an experience I had (not like you can say no, I'm already typing it), Master once cut my skin, intentionally. As the blood trickled from me, he slowly and gently scraped his knife up along the wound, so that it dripped onto its blade. And then he held the blade to my mouth and pressed it on my lower lip. I opened my mouth and he slid the blade in so I could lick it clean.

It was an intensely erotic and intimate encounter. He can take life from me, yet he feeds it back to me. It is all his. The power is his. He can pull from me what he wants - my very blood - and yet rather than let it fall to nothingness, he caught it, owned it, and gave it back to me on his blade. He owns my very blood, and allows me to have it. He can take it away any time, but he will always feed me life. It as profound for me, and significant. It was an amazing moment of bonding. For us both, I believe.

Thank you so much for sharing this owned. As you know from one of our recent telephone conversations, Himself does have me ingest my own blood on occasion and I think you've described the depth of the feeling it can instill perfectly!

~FR to other posts~

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I have no statistics regarding cum and blood. I have unprotected sex with Himself. I never engage in unprotected blood play with strangers. My trust in Himself is the only thing I have to protect me from HIV, STD's, etc. My gloves are what protects me when I play in the blood of others. The best I can do is either not play or try to minimize the risks when I do play. I've chosen the latter and will except the consequences of my actions. If I've prepared poorly, put trust into someone I shouldn't have, I have only myself to blame.

The reasons for placing blood into one's hard limit box are probably as varied as those who put it there. I think some very valid reasons have already been suggested by various posters in this thread and will just add one more that hasn't been mentioned. I think some will decide against blood play because they believe the letting of blood to simply be beyond their pain tolerance. Certainly as valid a reason as any other. Needles, knives and other sharpies have the potential to be very dangerous instruments, probably much more so than a bunny flogger

, so the fear factor is also one which may lead some to toss that onto their limit list.

I find the letting of blood puts me in places that no other activity can even begin to match. Like lizzie, I was a cutter and watching my own blood flow is as mesmerizing as watching the flames of a fire dance. I am seldom mesmerized by a bruise I may carry but when I think about the causes of that bruise, the blood that's erupted beneath my skin and what's actually happened, it comes closer to taking me to the same place that the actual flow of blood takes me.

Himself likes to carve my skin (words mostly, but he's been known to do his famous stick figures as well and turn my back into a cartoon strip

) and he gets a kick out of it as much as I do, but for him, it's partly visual thrill and seeing his creation, partly the sound I make when he's carving things into me and partly the idea that he can do it just because he feels like it since I belong to him so the places he goes are not the places I go. Himself also like to bruise me (not so easy to do anymore, but still) and that seems to take him pretty much to the same sorts of places except that I don't make the same sorts of noises when I'm getting beat as I do when I'm getting cut. To Michael, it's six of one, half a dozen of another and there are things which rock his boat more than others, but making me bleed, whether internal or external does about the same thing for him. Just goes to show how people can react so differently to things.

Thanks so much to everyone for the wonderful input in the thread! It's been quite enjoyable for me. :)

Celeste

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 11:48:35 AM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittman40

As to needle sharing... If you share a needle with an infected person then your probability of getting infected is extremely high. I've known two nurses and a doctor who contracted HIV from needlesticks. In all three cases the individual the needle was initially in was HIV positive. I've only known ONE person who got a needlestick from an HIV positive person who didn't get it and they only had the barest of nicks on their finger and underwent immediate ( within 6 hours ) and intensive anti-retroviral therapy, immunoglobulins and all sorts of fancy stuff a psychiatrist really doesn't know much about ;).

Interesting. The CDC counts here in the US up until 2005 report around 90 occupational transmissions of HIV, with 77 of them being percutaneous inoculations with infected blood. Given the population comparisons from here to there in Ireland, you must know almost all of the folks who have ever in their lives been stuck with a needle through the course of their work.

http://www.avert.org/needlestick.htm

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 11:51:19 AM

Driver1961

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He dips His lid;

And I've enjoyed it too Bita. I initially rolled my eyes admittedly expecting some flaming. I do consider that many of us in Lifestyle are 'a tad left of centre' and we tend not to see the obvious that most interpret!
Blood to most is blood in its 'lifeforce concept' outside or going outside the body.
Bruises are contained and blood as the 'lifeforce concept' is not seen so has no need to be acknowledged.

There are many acts that I too regard as intensely intimate and blood letting, branding is in that category. It is not a limit to me per se but a limit without the correct intimacy that would develop with another over time and consequently sublimely shared.

Some Clarification perhaps?
In my experience, Cutting does not involve deep cutting, at the depth of arteries but is more deep scratches that do weep unlike needle play that does go deeper. Perhaps someone with more experience than this humbly smuggy One may post their thoughts?

Warm regards to all Driver.

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 12:19:09 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

He dips His lid;

And I've enjoyed it too Bita. I initially rolled my eyes admittedly expecting some flaming. I do consider that many of us in Lifestyle are 'a tad left of centre' and we tend not to see the obvious that most interpret!

I actually wasn't expecting a lot of flames, but I have a bit of rose-colored glasses syndrome and expect the best from the people who post to threads which I begin. I'm rarely disappointed.

quote:

Blood to most is blood in its 'lifeforce concept' outside or going outside the body.
Bruises are contained and blood as the 'lifeforce concept' is not seen so has no need to be acknowledged.

I totally agree with this and this thread was actually begun to challenge that concept! Blood, inside or outside the body, in my mind, is second only to tears in what is most precious to me.

If someone bleeds for me or I bleed for someone, that is a precious substance from their body (or mine) which is given and received with the awe it deserves. When someone cries for me or I cry for someone, that's all heart and comes from the soul, which is more precious to me than my body and what it contains.

quote:

There are many acts that I too regard as intensely intimate and blood letting, branding is in that category. It is not a limit to me per se but a limit without the correct intimacy that would develop with another over time and consequently sublimely shared.

I'll add permanent marks to the blood letting and branding as intensely intimate acts for me. The tattoo I carry is one which I will carry for life. It was placed with thoughtful consideration and it's meaning and design are very personal to Himself and I.

quote:

Some Clarification perhaps?
In my experience, Cutting does not involve deep cutting, at the depth of arteries but is more deep scratches that do weep unlike needle play that does go deeper. Perhaps someone with more experience than this humbly smuggy One may post their thoughts?

As one who both cuts and participates in needle work, your assessment is, generally, correct. Cutting tends to be more superficial albeit over a larger surface area and, imo, causes more pain than needles even though needles to go further beneath the epidermal layer. In addition, I attach weights to the needles (or have weights attached to the ones which have pierced my own body) or some other mechanical device with causes pulling etc and heightens the sensations in that limited area. I've gone into subspace from both the activities and I've gone to a very heady topspace when I've been the one doing the wielding whether it was a scalpel or a needle. I have a huge 'thing' for sharpies of all kinds though, so most certainly am biased in my love of the sensations such can cause to the human body.

All that said, cutting, in my mind is much more dangerous than needle play for the simple fact that it's easier to slip and cause damage with a knife than a needle. Needle work is up close and personal involving a very small area with each individual needle which is placed. If I sneeze in the middle of placing a needle (and I'm well acquainted with human anatomy and know where the main arteries are located) at most I'm going to prick someone a bit deeper than I had intended but it's just that.. a pin prick. If I sneeze during a cutting, I might slice off a nipple! Everything, in the end, is a calculated risk and your best safety net is knowing the capabilities of the person with whom you indulge.

Thank you for the contribution. :)

Celeste

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 1:40:58 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittman40

Well, I think that a 5 to 10% figure of a blowjob to completion on an infected person is reasonable from what I've read on the subject.

Do you have a source for this?

quote:

Basically though everyone is mixing up the risks from being exposed to members of the community whose risk you don't know and risk from exposure to a person who is infected.

I'm not mixing that up. I explicitly mentioned the bit about 0.6% of the population being infected. And the figures I used for spread rates were admittedly from WP, but sourced here. Provided that source is correct, there should be a 1 in 10.000 chance of infection from receptive fellatio with an infected partner. Assuming you pick random partners, it translates to a 1 in 1.500.000 or so chance of infection from the chance encounter. This per blowjob in both cases, of course.

quote:

Since very few people in the community ( generally ) are infected the risk of having sex with someone with HIV is relatively low if you sleep with 20 or 30 people ( relatively low being a figure open to all sorts of interpretation) BUT if you sleep with them and get seminal or blood exchange then your odds of catching HIV vary from about 5% with a bj up to 80% or so with unprotected anal sex PER ACT.

Again, the sourced figures are on the order of 50-60 infections per 10.000 intercourses with infected partners.

If you have better sources, that would help the debate along quite a bit.

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 2:41:11 PM

DreamyLadySnow

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chelle,
I've been vaccinated against Hep A and B (something I recommend for all kinksters).
There is no vaccine for C which can live for quite some time outside the body. It's not that easy to catch without a direct route of entry (cut, for example).
Also can't kill it by hanging a flogger up to dry for a couple days, if the flogger happens to cut the skin.

LS

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 8:13:58 PM

MaamJay

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Let me throw this one into the mix ... in all this discussion (and very interesting it has been too) about blood-letting with knives and needles ... and bearing in mind the safety concerns of fluid-sharing (also very important) ... there's been no mention of this, so how do people feel about the wonderful source of blood that flows from women of appropriate ages on a monthly basis?? It's been my experience (both as Domme and sub) that most men are very squicked by menses and want nothing to do with it. However, some years ago, I did have one wonderful (otherwise vanilla but very sexual) boyfriend who absolutely loved it. He did his best oral on me at that time and just adored a hard fucking, making the towel beneath us all messy (it was his trophy to keep!), and wearing his red "badge of honour" without showering it off. At the time I thought it a bit odd but hey, I got the pleasure (and it helped with the cramps!) so I wasn't complaining!

In bdsm I am rather more wary about fluid transmission as a whole unless with totally trusted and tested partners ... if I was to draw blood on a sub that flogger wouldn't be used for anyone else (which would be a bummer if it was My favourite one!), and I've not yet felt the urge to go into needleplay or cutting. It could happen though, never say never! I'm not squeamish about blood, I can handle wounds effectively ... and now I'm diabetic I get to see (and taste) My own fairly regularly LOL! But I agree there are a raft of reasons why people don't engage in blood play ... transmissible disease, risk of self-infection, fear of seeing it/fainting etc, sacredness of spilling blood (I agree it is in SO many traditions, I thought of the whole blood brother thing too), fear of the pain involved, fear of triggering past memories or behaviours, fear of evil spirits getting in ... and I am sure there are more. I think it's a reasonable thing for people to have on their initial profile, as it's not something that is safe to do lightly with someone new ... safest to do when trust has been established and some of these other factors have been dealt with.

An interesting thread celeste!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/2/2007 8:26:00 PM

SmokingGun82

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I believe I did misread the study this morning, missing that it was the percentage of infections, not the risk. I'd chalk it up to lack of sleep, but more likely it was simply an oversight.

Regardless, oral sex is lower risk, as you originally said, and it's up to people whether or not the degree of risk is acceptable to them.

Of course, overall I think the key term in any discussion of HIV transmission is "with infected partners." Any activity is less dangerous with partners that don't carry the disease. :)

Be safe out there, kiddies.

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/3/2007 1:04:34 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

I believe I did misread the study this morning, missing that it was the percentage of infections, not the risk. I'd chalk it up to lack of sleep, but more likely it was simply an oversight.

It happens. I misread it during the initial skim, but caught it on the regular reading as I thought it odd.

quote:

Regardless, oral sex is lower risk, as you originally said, and it's up to people whether or not the degree of risk is acceptable to them.

~nods~

Clearly. Although it would certainly be interesting to know what the correct figures are. There is a big difference between the 1-in-10 to 1-in-20 chance mentioned by wittman40, and the 1-in-10.000 chance mentioned by the sources used by WP. Considering the number of streetwalkers that give blowjobs every day, I think there would be few people left with no infection if the former number was correct, whereas the latter number might just be appropriate in that regard.

quote:

Of course, overall I think the key term in any discussion of HIV transmission is "with infected partners." Any activity is less dangerous with partners that don't carry the disease. :)

~nods~

Although, barring verifiable chastity / control, there is no reliable way to tell. Figures indicate that you're not likely to be told, even if they test positive, especially if they contract it due to infidelity. In either case, tests are mostly useful in terms of damage containment, which is why there are free clinics, among other things.

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/3/2007 1:13:02 PM

earthycouple

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I love blood play in all facets that I can think of at the moment. I like blood letting, causing bruises, seeing blood and I enjoy taking my victim's blood (in small doses) in my mouth then kissing him (yes yes...I'm also a precaution freak, no worries)

The generally accepted definition of blood play, to the extent I've experienced is as Pandora mentions, bloodletting vs. subdural hematomas. You are correct though hematoma...that is blood manipulation.

So for those of you who distinguish...I like bloodletting and blood manipulation!

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/3/2007 3:38:51 PM

goddessAVA

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Hey-you said what I wanted to say! I hear from people all the time on here that think knife play is stabbing them, little do they know it is so much better then that.

I guess my reputation proceeds me as well-mostly I get animals and kids as limits anymore, both pro and play. I have been on a major tear with the needles lately-seems like everyone is getting a simple cock piercing at least. I am sure you are adept at the gorgeous intricate work I see in public-I'd love to witness that sometime.

Blood just sounds scary, people think HIV and say no way, but a little blood happens all the time-I want the guy with the white blanket fetish who watches the blood spread as his cock is tortured described on max.....that sounded like a hot scene! I also heard about a couple that did a carrie type scene-her blood all over a white wedding dress, that is so fucking taboo-I love it.

when you are ready to start the shit thread I'll be there as always-making my subbies smell it on my finger, emptying an enema on their stomach and sooooooo much worse!

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/4/2007 8:34:25 AM

wittman40

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Pandora,

1. The place you work at only needs to know about infection if you go through their occupational health protocol and get the D0 an D+180 tests with them.

2. A LOT of people wouldn't trust the occupational health units here as far as they can throw them and so don't go through them. End result, unless you report it to them they never know about the needlestick or any test results which come out of it.

3. I've had about 7 or 8 needlesticks in my time. I reported the first one and when I refused the initial test and was threatened by the occupational health consultant with not being given a "fit to practice certificate" I walked out. End result, as far as the government knows I have only ever been needlesticked once. Did every patient I got needlesticked from get a HIV/Hep screen after my needlesticks? Sure, I or my friends always did it with their consent BUT unofficially and under the radar of occupational health. Did I get the D+180 screens? Sure. Did I tell my occupational health department about it? Hell no.

So, 8 needlesticks in reality becomes 1 in the figures. Basically if you look at the figures in Ireland it is amazing that interns ( first year doctors ) get LOADs of needlesticks but senior doctors ( SHOs and registrars ) get very few. Sure we're more experienced BUT the real reason is we reported our first needlestick when we were interns and then learnt not to report it again.

Statistics don't account for human nature and the unofficial way in which the Irish psyche and institutions like to run.

So, to think that the occupational health departments know anything other than a tiny portion of the infections which occur is deluded.... Obviously in an environment where mandatory yearly testing or whatever is enforced the figures would change somewhat but in ireland occupational HIV/Hep etc testing of doctors isn't mandatory.

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/4/2007 11:47:09 AM

iammachine

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Blood play, by the way I personally define and understand it, is anything that causes blood to be manipulated in an external way (cutting, blood letting, blood painting, scarification, drawing with a needle, etc).

I guess subdermal manipulation of blood can fit into a broader definition, just not mine. So, I think individual clarification is damn handy. It's not a hard limit for me. There's of course a host of concerns involved when coming in contact with blood, however, so it's something of a soft limit-ish. Not because I have an aversion at all (I have something of a blood fetish...),but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

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