RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out...

RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/10/2007 9:23:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia quote: ORIGINAL: Petronius Looking over the long discussion led me to one observation I consider rather chilling. Some people may consider their rights trivial but in so doing claim that my rights are trivial as well. If they're willing to waive their rights they want to waive my rights as well, and seem quite incredulous that I might disagree. Excellent, and chilling, observation. I wonder what the reaction would be if people suddenly started saying "we don't feel it is right to tie people up for kinky sex purposes and therefore we are going to pass laws to stop it." There might be a whole bunch of folks that said "You know, that's true. I mean, we are just trying to protect people. It isn't really that big a deal, right? I have no problem with not tying up my partner." I make this point constantly in terms of the fiasco in Iraq. Almost all of the die-hard supporters of the war have no personal stake in it, and are playing roulette with other people's lives. Such indifference to and callous disregard for the lives of other people, as well as self-centeredness, is simply breathtaking, chilling, and awe inspiring in it's scope. Sinergy

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/10/2007 3:09:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 I can't help but wonder why. Why are there so many apathetic attitudes towards this? Le sigh. Bit by bit it is taken away. That scares me & saddens me. How can you not care? Mind boggling. Herd mentality? Respect for individual rights implies acting alone, like an individual, and that carries with it connotation of risk, for some.

camille65 -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/10/2007 3:33:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Herd mentality? Respect for individual rights implies acting alone, like an individual, and that carries with it connotation of risk, for some. Well I don't see it as an individual thing because too many people are facing it. Not just one or two.. but everyone.

Petronius -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/10/2007 6:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 I can't help but wonder why. Why are there so many apathetic attitudes towards this? Le sigh. Bit by bit it is taken away. That scares me & saddens me. How can you not care? Mind boggling. Sadly, I think that there's often more than apathy involved. There's the pro-corporate mentality that seeks to defend corporations regardless of the issue, regardless of the facts, regardless of the law, and regardless of ethics. A friend of mine calls it the "death of real conservatism" where real conservatives once held contracts next to the Bible in terms of importance and would never defend a corporate breach of one. Now the new pro-corporatism does nothing but. "Does your landlord not provide heat? Move! Don't take him to court!" "Does your ISP promise you 5 Mbs and deliver 1/10th that? Get a life! Then get a new ISP!" And of course my favorite question to the pro-corporate crowd who maintains that a customer should forget a dispute because it is "so fucking trival:" If the issue is so fucking trivial why don't you tell the corporation to roll over? That solves everybody's problems right away.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 6:46:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Herd mentality? Respect for individual rights implies acting alone, like an individual, and that carries with it connotation of risk, for some. Well I don't see it as an individual thing because too many people are facing it. Not just one or two.. but everyone. I meant that the 'masses' seem to cling to the perceived safety and comfort of going along with whatever is 'good for the group', as opposed to taking the path of individuality. As Frankl observed, some people will take the more passive route, even when it leads to their demise, rather than exert themselves to maintain existence.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 7:45:18 AM)
Asking for the reciept is not illegal and not a violation of the 4th amendment. The forth amendment requires that searches and seizures conducted under GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY be "reasonable". The building is OWNED as well as the parking lot. They have every right to establish policies and practices regarding entering and leaving just as I do IN MY HOME. If I want to check people's bags at my door I'm entitled too. Granted - I wouldn't have any freinds doing it lol but it is my right. Now Circut City was wrong when the manager "detained" them by blocking the car. At this point they should have recorded the licence plate number and called the police. The police was wrong for arresting him for not producing a drivers licence. There's a mixed bag of wrongs here.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 8:14:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Asking for the reciept is not illegal and not a violation of the 4th amendment. The forth amendment requires that searches and seizures conducted under GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY be "reasonable". The building is OWNED as well as the parking lot. They have every right to establish policies and practices regarding entering and leaving just as I do IN MY HOME. If I want to check people's bags at my door I'm entitled too. Granted - I wouldn't have any freinds doing it lol but it is my right. Now Circut City was wrong when the manager "detained" them by blocking the car. At this point they should have recorded the licence plate number and called the police. The police was wrong for arresting him for not producing a drivers licence. There's a mixed bag of wrongs here. You are correct. There is nothing illegal about them setting up these policies and procedures. Just as you have every right to establish any policy or procedure that you want for your home. However, and this cannot be stated strongly enough, just because you or Circuit City or any other private entity can create any policy they want, these policies DO NOT have the force of law. They are not laws. So if you tell anyone wanting to leave your house that you need to search their bags, they are under no legal obligation to consent. If you force the issue and detain them, then they have both the right to self defense AND the right to arrest you for false imprisonment. Your rights end where my rights/body/possessions begin.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 8:44:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Asking for the reciept is not illegal and not a violation of the 4th amendment. The forth amendment requires that searches and seizures conducted under GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY be "reasonable". The building is OWNED as well as the parking lot. They have every right to establish policies and practices regarding entering and leaving just as I do IN MY HOME. If I want to check people's bags at my door I'm entitled too. Granted - I wouldn't have any freinds doing it lol but it is my right. Now Circut City was wrong when the manager "detained" them by blocking the car. At this point they should have recorded the licence plate number and called the police. The police was wrong for arresting him for not producing a drivers licence. There's a mixed bag of wrongs here. You are correct. There is nothing illegal about them setting up these policies and procedures. Just as you have every right to establish any policy or procedure that you want for your home. However, and this cannot be stated strongly enough, just because you or Circuit City or any other private entity can create any policy they want, these policies DO NOT have the force of law. They are not laws. So if you tell anyone wanting to leave your house that you need to search their bags, they are under no legal obligation to consent. If you force the issue and detain them, then they have both the right to self defense AND the right to arrest you for false imprisonment. Your rights end where my rights/body/possessions begin. I agreed with you on the detainment issue and the ability to charge for false imprisonment. Self defense however is debatable on the laws of your state. I know my state requires that you have evidence that bodily harm believed to be intended. In my state I would not be justified in assaulting a manger who's outstreched arms were blocking my car but a woman who's stalking ex boyfreind, doing the same thing, may justify self defense. I would however be able to press charges for falsly dataining me or at least suing in the civil courts. Also let's remember there are stores like SAM's club or member only stores which you might have signed a contractual agreement letting them check your receipt. But that's not the case here. Still it depends. People need to research the shoplifting laws of their state and not find the answer here. It really is going to vary.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 9:01:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal I agreed with you on the detainment issue and the ability to charge for false imprisonment. Self defense however is debatable on the laws of your state. I know my state requires that you have evidence that bodily harm believed to be intended. In my state I would not be justified in assaulting a manger who's outstreched arms were blocking my car but a woman who's stalking ex boyfreind, doing the same thing, may justify self defense. I would however be able to press charges for falsly dataining me or at least suing in the civil courts. Also let's remember there are stores like SAM's club or member only stores which you might have signed a contractual agreement letting them check your receipt. But that's not the case here. Still it depends. People need to research the shoplifting laws of their state and not find the answer here. It really is going to vary. I'm thinking that for me it would be a self-defense issue, because I would simply walk right past them. The moment they put a hand on me, they will get popped in the nose hard (friend or not). That would pretty much be the same with a door-checker-outer. They put a hand on me, I might warn them first, but they will get smacked hard. If they did something like lock the door but did not initiate physical content, the laws are probably a bit sketchier, but I think it would be reasonable to fear that it could escalate. For stores like SAM's where you have signed a contractual agreement, the only recourse they have is to cancel your membership and to keep you from entering their store again. Signing a contract does not give away your rights, it just outlines forms of recourse for the store and opens you up to potential breach of contract suits. However, with that said, I shop at BJ's where I have signed a contract and acknowledge that I have agreed to show them my receipt as part of being a member there. So I have absolutely no problem with that. I agreed to it. Edited to add: I am by no means a lawyer, and so for all I know I could be completely talking out my ass. These are just my personal opinions and what I think is true and the basis for how I would act/react in this type of situation.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 9:09:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal People need to research the shoplifting laws of their state and not find the answer here. It really is going to vary. We're not talking about shoplifting. We are talking about being surreptitiously harassed for no reason whatever. No evidence. No film. No witness. Just the simple demand to show your receipt and let the retailer's agent check your stuff. And no, you don't not have to comply. And when the cop shows up he should probably investigate the actual crime which prompted his being called to the scene and not just automatically side with the corporate interest against the individual. Or did you miss that part?

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 9:23:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal People need to research the shoplifting laws of their state and not find the answer here. It really is going to vary. We're not talking about shoplifting. We are talking about being surreptitiously harassed for no reason whatever. No evidence. No film. No witness. Just the simple demand to show your receipt and let the retailer's agent check your stuff. And no, you don't not have to comply. And when the cop shows up he should probably investigate the actual crime which prompted his being called to the scene and not just automatically side with the corporate interest against the individual. Or did you miss that part? I understand that. But your local laws regarding the definition of retail theft is going to determine if you have to show your receipt at the door or not. That was my point. In most cases, if not all, you won't have to. I checked my state laws because of this thread. But I am not going to check everyone's state laws. There is no stipulation defining it so I'm off scott free. I was surprised though to find out that, in my state, store staff CAN detain a suspected shoplifter. Also though - not the case here. He wasn't suspected of stealing.

Sinergy -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 9:42:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia I'm thinking that for me it would be a self-defense issue, because I would simply walk right past them. The moment they put a hand on me, they will get popped in the nose hard (friend or not). That would pretty much be the same with a door-checker-outer. They put a hand on me, I might warn them first, but they will get smacked hard. If they did something like lock the door but did not initiate physical content, the laws are probably a bit sketchier, but I think it would be reasonable to fear that it could escalate. A far more lucrative solution if you are touched is to immediately fall to the ground, claim the person assaulted you, demand the police fill out a police report, and refuse to get up until an ambulance takes you to the hospital. Pop an employee in the face, you will end up doing jail time until the police figure the problem out. You lying on the ground calling 911 on your phone and yelling "THESE PEOPLE ARE ASSAULTING ME" is a PR nightmare for the company. Assaulted by an employee on company property, you own them. Sinergy

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 9:50:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal I understand that. But your local laws regarding the definition of retail theft is going to determine if you have to show your receipt at the door or not. That was my point. In most cases, if not all, you won't have to. I checked my state laws because of this thread. But I am not going to check everyone's state laws. There is no stipulation defining it so I'm off scott free. I was surprised though to find out that, in my state, store staff CAN detain a suspected shoplifter. Also though - not the case here. He wasn't suspected of stealing. I have never heard of such a law allowing a private, non-governement, non-police entity to perform a search of another law-abiding person and their property WITHOUT evidence of an actual crime (heck, even WITH evidence). Even police officers need probable cause and/or a warrant to do such a thing. If there is such a law, I would hope that it would be very quickly ruled as unConstitutional and the idiot lawmakers who created it are ran out town on a rail covered in tar and feathers. I would also choose to never live in such a place. But hey, if you hear of any, please let us know, because I have a feeling that a place such as this would also have no issues trampling on other rights. The fact that this occurs on private property has no bearing (baring? always confuse those) on the issue. The parking lot is private property. Can the store demand to search your vehicle? If not, what is the difference?

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 9:53:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy A far more lucrative solution if you are touched is to immediately fall to the ground, claim the person assaulted you, demand the police fill out a police report, and refuse to get up until an ambulance takes you to the hospital. Pop an employee in the face, you will end up doing jail time until the police figure the problem out. You lying on the ground calling 911 on your phone and yelling "THESE PEOPLE ARE ASSAULTING ME" is a PR nightmare for the company. Assaulted by an employee on company property, you own them. Sinergy Very good point. Maybe I can figure out a scam.... uh, method by which I can promptly pay off my credit cards (which were ran up in said receipt-checking stores). We could just consider it a store rebate.

Sinergy -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 9:59:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia Very good point. Maybe I can figure out a scam.... uh, method by which I can promptly pay off my credit cards (which were ran up in said receipt-checking stores). We could just consider it a store rebate. My point was more about there being multiple approaches to defending onself than popping somebody in the face for touching you. There is a part of Sun Tzu's Art Of War which talks about unsettling the opponents footing. The employee who touched you thought he was on firm ground touching you on public property, you lying on the ground in a public place screaming he/she/it is assaulting you turns everybodies attention to your situation. This makes him wonder if he/she/it was within his rights to eomply with company policy. Everybody questioned by the police will say "Yeah, he got pushed down by that guy over there" because that is what imprinted under adrenalin. I wouldnt call it a scam. It is simply asserting your personal right to not be assaulted by other people. But if it pays off your credit cards, I say work with it. Sinergy

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 10:39:13 AM)
Actually the more I read about this the more it falls apart. This guy is going to get a nice settlement. This should make for a nice precident. Certain facts: Stores can detain (for a reasonable time) SUSPECTS only, but CAN NOT search! And there are guidelines for what's suspicious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopkeeper's_privilege (shopkeepers privilege is superceeded in most areas with retail theft statutes http://www.expertlaw.com/library/security/shoplifting.html) A similar story has already happened in my state but the guy, although vidicated, did not have the money to send it to court. http://consumerist.com/consumer/civil-rights/tigerdirect-unlawfully-restrains-and-verbally-abuses-customer-for-not-submitting-to-receipt+showing-demands-292688.php Interesting thread here for sure.

QuietlySeeking -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 10:47:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado ...the stores have the right to refuse service... No, they don't. A wall of civil rights laws says they have very little wiggle room there. They certainly could not refuse service because someone had previously refused to waive their rights under the law. That would be absurd. Unless you can prove that the store is violating your rights based on one of those limited "protected groups" covered in civil rights law, the proprietor still retains the right to refuse service to anyone. "Because you refused a search in that store" is not a "protected group" according to those civil rights law, you would lose.

luckydog1 -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 10:53:23 AM)
Anyone who wants can try to use sinergys scam. Of course you will probably be filmed as it occurs, and end up arrested and owing the company money.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 11:03:43 AM)
Aw, c'mon, luckydog, you are bringing me down. I finally thought I had figured out a get rich quick scheme. Damn, back to the drawing board.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/11/2007 11:34:38 AM)
ChicagoSwitchMal: As you might imagine, your findings are hardly novel after 12 pages here and several pages in another thread also. QuietlySeeking: That's an asked and answered situation. Businesses have almost no right to refuse service. luckydog1: Any kind of trespass against a person is going to be at least a battery offense. Assault and false imprisonment are also possible. It being caught on tape is just better for the person suing. I bet the corporation loses that piece of "evidence" if it can.

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