Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out...


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 6:52:10 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Comments:
-Working under the assumption this story is entirely accurate, I found find in the favor of the author.
-The website strikes me as a likely scam. The attempts at claiming legitmacy so frequently for donations and the entire website being posted in such a short time when he's supposedly been deep in legal issues is particularly questionable.
-Is it or is it not illegal to refuse showing an officer an ID in such a situation? I would appreciate a reputable citing.
-Does anyone know how to research if the particular case is legitimate?


This is a good point that hasn't been brought up yet: is the author's story entirely truthful, bereft of any bias?



More to the point: IS THE LAW HE CITED CORRECT? The LAW he cited seems quite clear. In OHIO a police officer CANNOT ARREST YOU LAWFULLY for simply refusing to Show Papers.

And the Supreme Court in Hillel didn't change OHIO's law one bit. ( Since they ruled on the appropriatness of a NEVADA Statute, and therefore OHIO would have to CHANGE THEIR LAW first. )

quote:



I do not believe that at all. Just like if we were to hear this story solely from the Circuit City LP's point of view, we couldn't believe all of it.

Somewhere in the middle is the truth. I believe that this guy is trumping up the story, because he's apparently in love with being a martyr, gloryfing his actions to make them look like he was making a last, desperate stand against that pesky system.

Glancing back at the charge, Obstructing Official Business, it could be construed that not providing proof of your identification could be considered Obstructing. So what if the guy gave the cop a name and address. Where's the proof that he is who he claims he is? Perhaps he has a warrant out for his arrest, and is therefore supplying a false name.




Ever hear of "Innocent until proven guilty"?

Here's how it works. UNLESS the complainant has PROBABLE CAUSE that YOU committed the CRIME UNDER INVESTIGATION, then they simply cannot do ANYTHING to you.

If someone KNOWS you did the crime, you get arrested, otherwise their supposed authority is a BLUFF.

This guy has the balls to call the bluff. Good for him. A lot of pussies could learn a thing or two.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lazarus1983)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 6:57:11 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

This guy is a drama queen. He knew bloody well that he was being asked for reciepts on the way out. He enjoyed the attention in becoming above the law and being chased.


Actually, he was just exercising his RIGHTS to refuse ispection. He's not "Above the Law". He's OBEYING the law.

The other parties, Circuit City, and the arresting Officer are the persons who appear to have violated OHIO LAW.

quote:


Just yesterday, I bought school supplies including a backpack. Since my last stop in that department store was to buy some movies, I paid all of my stuff at the DVD/CD closed area since I was there, and the lady suggested it, since there was no lineup. Leaving the store, I was wearing the backpack with the price tag still on it. I held the receipt up so cashiers on the way out can see it and I said, 'I bought this stuff back there'. So simple.


What, were the too cheap to give you a bag, so you needed to stuff shit into your backpack? Of course it is YOUR BACKPACK at this point, so if you wanted to load YOUR OTHER PROPERTY into it, that is your choice to make.


quote:


If it were a family owned store, a small variety store, I would have done the same. These people get ripped off just as much as the leading department stores. Besides, it avoids such chasing down and drama in the first place to show a product receipt if a person's purchase is done differently or an on/off way as this guy had. He wanted the attention. Lil cry baby only didn't expect himself to be arrested to have the center of attention. Self-promoted fiasco. What a loser.


People have EXACTLY the Freedom and Liberty THEY ARE WILLING TO DEFEND.

Sounds to me like this guy loves his Freedom and Liberty a heck of a lot more than a lot of posters I've read here.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 6:59:33 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

And the Supreme Court in Hillel didn't change OHIO's law one bit. ( Since they ruled on the appropriatness of a NEVADA Statute, and therefore OHIO would have to CHANGE THEIR LAW first. )


No, tinfoil hat guru, Ohio's law affords American citizens more Constitutional protection than the Hibbel standard, and is therefor unaffected by it. The fact that Hibbel was in Nevada, doesn't meant that only people in one state can enjoy their rights as US citizens.     But thanks for proving once again, that you have no clue about the law.

(Why doesn't this site have the 'dog pounding the floor in laughter' smiley?  The eye rolls are simply insufficient to convey disgust at the worship of ignorance on FB's level.)

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 7:00:18 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

...and in general, "tenants" do not
(as re: non-corporate/commercial, aka: actual persons, here)
have any 'defensible' rights, in the eyes of the law...
speaking in general of course (from personal experience)


In the context of this story, the above is completely untrue... people who rent, whether a home or a business, have the same legal rights to not be raped, murdered, assaulted, or robbed, as do people in their houses. They enjoy the same Constitutional rights against unreasonable government actions, such as racial discrimination, arbitrary decisions, unlawful searches, and so forth.


Those rights do not extend to Unlawful Detention, or rummaging through your PERSONAL PROPERTY.

When someone grabs at MY BAG containing MY PROPERTY against my wishes, they have JUST ROBBED ME!

And the same RESPONSIBILITIES to pay the fine/or do the time exist.

Circuit City fucked up.
The local PD fucked up.

Time to make the person who suffered damages whole.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 7:01:54 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		More BS in the promotion of ignorance... according to the man's own account, Circuit City did none of those things to him.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 7:14:18 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

And the Supreme Court in Hillel didn't change OHIO's law one bit. ( Since they ruled on the appropriatness of a NEVADA Statute, and therefore OHIO would have to CHANGE THEIR LAW first. )


No, tinfoil hat guru, Ohio's law affords American citizens more Constitutional protection than the Hibbel standard, and is therefor unaffected by it. The fact that Hibbel was in Nevada, doesn't meant that only people in one state can enjoy their rights as US citizens. But thanks for proving once again, that you have no clue about the law.

(Why doesn't this site have the 'dog pounding the floor in laughter' smiley? The eye rolls are simply insufficient to convey disgust at the worship of ignorance on FB's level.)




HUH? What the HELL are you babbling about?

Putting aside the snide, personal attack against me, "Nevada 171.123 in pertinent part states: “Any peace officer may detain any person whom the officer encounters under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. The officer may detain the person pursuant to this section only to ascertain his identity and the suspicious circumstances surrounding his presence abroad. Any person so detained shall identify himself, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any peace officer.”"

So what does That particular NEVADA law being upheld have to do with this OHIO Law?

And of course, the person at Circuit City *did* identify himself, so he would have met that standard anyway, thereby affording himself the protection of not being compelled to answer any other inquiries.

Now, the question becomes: What is Identification? And what means of Identification are Constitutionally permitted to the Federal Government.

While it is a CONVENIENT ( for cops ) procedure to get the person's name and check to see if he is wanted on any outstanding warrants, or if he meets the description of suspects wanted for any other recently reported crimes, is is RIGHT?

( And *of course* you neglect that in Hibbel, the Police were called to investigate a complaint of Hibbel committing an assault on the driver of the pickup truck, and therefore it was in INVESTIGATIVE INTERROGATION, unlike this instance, where the ARRESTEE CALLED THE POLICE TO REPORT A CRIME BEING COMMITTED UPON HIM! )

So, your invocation of Hibbel is unwarranted in any event.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 7:20:08 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I don't know if he wants to get the ACLU involved.
If I were on a jury and someone had the ACLU on their side it would be an automatic "GUILTY!" from me.

popeye:
Just one more indication of your intellectual acumen.
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 7:26:39 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		The question is if any US citizen can be compelled to provide identification, and I provided a cite for the case which answered that.
Your tactic of claiming that allowing people to read the case for themselves is 'unwarranted', and a 'snide personal attack' shows you are in over your head.

And BTW, it doesn't matter which party called the police, questions can be asked all around to ascertain what happened... the fact that you are ignorant of Acevedo, and don't understand  the real constraints on interrogation shoots another one of your imaginary Constitutional creations down in flames.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 8:19:16 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Al,

The question is **NOT** if any US citizen can be compelled to provide identification,.

quote:


ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Comments:
Is it or is it not illegal to refuse showing an officer an ID in such a situation? I would appreciate a reputable citing.


To which you quote Hibble v. Nevada. WHICH IS NOT THE SAME SITUATION. In Hibble, HIBBLE HIMSELF was the subject of a complaint by a 3rd party.

In this case, THE ARRESTEE HAD ORIGINALLY DISPACTCHED THE COPS FOR ***HIS*** COMPLAINT OF BEING UNLAWFULLY DETAINED.

So, to answer THE QUESTION ASKED, and not go off on some irrelevant tangent... The article in question CITES the pertinent Ohio Law, and there is, IN THIS CASE, no requirement to show id.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/3/2007 8:20:24 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 8:31:17 AM   
dollylima


Posts: 48
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

If I were on a jury and someone had the ACLU on their side it would be an automatic "GUILTY!" from me.


We can add that, then, to the other 764 reasons you will never be chosen for a jury, Popeye.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 8:38:26 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Alumbrado:

Here is a link (as you have NOT produced one yourself that I can see):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada

But if you read the facts of the case, there is plenty of wiggle room here. In the current case of the circuit city guy, he did identify himself. This whole insistence that people produce an ID card reeks of a police state mentality.

The Hiibel case was decided by a slender margin and while I would agree that the court is still leaning far right (so that civil liberties will tend to shrink rather than expand under the present court) it is still far from what I would call a decided issue. Anyone wanting to fight the good fight can expect to pay a sever penalty in the meanwhile, but I can still see Hiibel being reversed when the time comes. One of the things I dislike about the SCOTUS being the final arbiter of cases is the pendulum nature of some hot issues - so rather than a circumspect constitutional decision you know you are getting a politically expedient answer instead.

What's ridiculous is that we have as of the moment lost ground from "probable cause" to "reasonable suspicion." And according to some of you that includes anyone with a receipt exiting a store.

Yeah, that makes sense...

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 8:56:49 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		No idea why the link I pasted didn't show up in the post...but that doesn't change the facts about Hiibel, and neither does your refusal to read it correctly:

> Any claim that no one can be arrested anywhere in the USA for refusing to show identification to the police is mistaken.
> In states that have not prohibited that practice, one could be arrested for refusing to provide it. 
> That wasn't the case in the OP story.


Additionally:

> 'Probable cause' and 'reasonable ( and articulable) suspicion' are terms relevant to law enforcement officers conducting arrests, searches, patdowns, et al.

> Loss prevention is not law enforcement.

>Private property is private property if it isn't owned by the government/people/public.  That includes tenants and owners of homes, businesses, farms, and so forth.


What exactly is your point again?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 9:01:02 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

Curious Lord:
Is it or is it not illegal to refuse showing an officer an ID in such a situation? 


quote:

Farglebargle: 
The question is **NOT** if any US citizen can be compelled to provide identification,.





Sure thing Fa, whatever you say... And you've obviously proven me wrong on the other points by typing in caps...

Thanks for some more of your fantastic information.




< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 9/3/2007 9:03:29 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 9:08:39 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Curious Lord:
Is it or is it not illegal to refuse showing an officer an ID in such a situation?


quote:

Farglebargle:
The question is **NOT** if any US citizen can be compelled to provide identification,.





Sure thing Fa, whatever you say... And you've obviously proven me wrong on the other points by typing in caps...

Thanks for some more of your fantastic information.





Actually, the proof of your incorrectness was when I posted Curious Lord's original question, "Is it or is it not illegal to refuse showing an officer an ID in such a situation? ".

To which the answer is, in this situation, it is clearly LAWFUL to refuse showing an officer an ID.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 9:13:19 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		And 'this situation', and 'such a situation' can only refer to exactly the same thing?

That's fantastic Fa.
  

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 9:19:11 AM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		Im replying from page one. Forgive me if the comversation has moved away from there. A poster is saying circuit city can ask for a reciept. Ok. Sure. Sams club does it. And to cover sams club's own butt, they make it pretty clear about what theyre doing by asking one and all for ID upon entry and recipet upon exit. Maybe thats different than Circuit city. Does circuit city make its policy clear from the get go? Is that part of whats getting our goat?
I for one feel annoyed that sams club "proofs me" if you will, every timne I walk in. So I stay clear as much as possible. I cant say I recive that membership feeling when I wander in to Cirtcuit city. Come to think of it, I dont wander into Circuit City. I have a best Buy. Look the same to me.  lol

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 9:23:57 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		I thought you had to pay dues to shop at Sam's club in order to get their prices?  I would think you would be glad they aren't letting people who didn't pay what you paid, get in without ID.

And did the membership agreement you signed say anything about agreeing to a search?

{As you might guess, I don't join member shopping clubs...  )


< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 9/3/2007 9:24:21 AM >

(in reply to sophia37)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 9:48:45 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting.  A background search on Michael Righi in Ohio turns up zero results.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 9:53:17 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		And yet a quick Yahoo search of 'Rollo Tomasi' turns up 164,000 hits.

Weird, huh?

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... - 9/3/2007 10:08:41 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		First, I am not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. These are all my layperson opinions however well sourced they may be.

I'm going to quickly recap relevant ideas and provide links to case law and other useful bits here...

-----

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

-----

Wiki has the whole "Stop and Identify statutes" thing well sourced here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

I call your attention to this one part:
"As of 2007, the validity of a law requiring that a person detained do anything more than state her name has not come before the U.S. Supreme Court."

So all of these assertions that you *MUST* show ID are currently false. But check with your jurisdiction and make sure. The fact of it is, police are law-breakers and power mad - generally speaking it's an easier course of action by far to simply do as asked unless you have a compelling reason not to do so. Ask important questions: "May I go?" Make declarative statements: "I do not consent to be searched." Often these police interactions are being recorded, so help yourself by setting the record straight from the first. Do not accept legal advice from the police, they are not only allowed to lie to you, doing so is often advantageous in conducting an investigation. I state it again: The police will lie to you.

-----

The Terry Stop:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

Terry v Ohio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
and
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=392&invol=1

-----

HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF
NEVADA, HUMBOLDT COUNTY, et al.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada
and
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=542&page=177

-----

Miranda v. Arizona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_v._Arizona
and
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=384&page=436

Seriously, this a better read than almost anything about crime I can think of. It's better than watching the latest rehashed "CSI-Law & Order-Numbers-Without a Trace" fantasy on TV - that's for sure!

-----

California v. Acevedo
http://www.oyez.org/cases/1990-1999/1990/1990_89_1690/

Question:
Under the Fourth Amendment, may police conduct a warrantless search of a container within an automobile if they have probable cause to believe that the container holds evidence?

Conclusion:
Yes.

Edit: Remember the standard is probable cause.

-----

ACLU Resources:
Direct links to PDF files you should read, print and most likely keep on your person or in your vehicle.

Know Your Rights: Bustcard:
http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/dwb%20bust%20card7_04.pdf

Know Your Rights (English): What To Do If You're Stopped By The Police, The FBI, The INS, Or The Customs Service:
http://www.aclunc.org/library/publications/asset_upload_file871_3533.pdf

-----


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094