RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out...

RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (Full Version)

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SugarMyChurro -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 5:58:18 AM)
It's interesting to read the opinions of people that are simply uneducated in the area of discussion... quote: ORIGINAL: MissIsis Are you willing to continue to shop at these stores, if they need to raise their prices to cover the cost of all the actual items that are really stolen by real shoplifters? Yeah, actually I think the thieves are a lot more clever than this system of security accounts for...the losses are occurring and nothing stops it. Here's a funny thing: do you know that the prison system in this country has an enormous contraband problem? Think about that for a moment. Such a thing would seem impossible, right? All those guards, all those security measures, all those cameras, hardly a moment's privacy, etc. When visitors enter a prison they are searched high and low, sometimes even a cavity search is required. So how does this mountain of contraband enter the prisons? Uh huh...the guards themselves bring it in. It's a well known fact. So that's all working out swell I guess. quote: ORIGINAL: MissIsis I am not sure of the legality of whether a store can ask for a receipt, but as a personal opinion only, if I go to a private business & set my feet through their doors, I would expect to follow their rules. Nope, sorry. You retain your normal set of civil liberties no matter where you walk into in this country. Well, hopefully anyway... Of course, you are personally free to waive whatever rights you feel like yielding to the various corporations with which you do business. Personally, I choose not to waive any civil liberties if I can help it. quote: ORIGINAL: MissIsis Are you aware, that by now, your picture has probably been posted in every circuit city in your region, or the entire country, pronouncing you, as unwelcome in that chain? Most stores post that they reserve the right to refuse service for any reason they deem appropriate. Yes, and that store posting is incorrect. A store would certainly have to have far more reason to deny you service than the fact that you refused to waive your civil rights just to conduct business with them. Just think about it for one fucking second. If a store really had the right to refuse service for any reason whatever then what would become of civil rights abuses? Does a store have the right to refuse service for reasons of ethnicity, race, creed, etc? No, they do not. Conclusion: Stores do not have the right to refuse service to anyone. They hope you will comply with their perhaps unreasonable demands because it suits them to have control over you for a variety of reasons.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 6:13:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado I cited the case where a US citizen was arrested for refusing to show the police identification. and the US Supreme court held that his conviction did not violate the Constitution. Not quite right... Hiibel was convicted for refusing to identify himself. The court suggested that he could have satisfied the statute by making a verbal statement instead of showing ID. You are contending he had to show ID - which the decision in Hiibel does not reach. They only had to decide that Hiibel's actions did not conform to the statutory demands on him during a Terry Stop. There is no case that supports the contention that you must show ID. The case in Ohio is an interesting case because the man did not refuse to identify himself. He refused to submit to be stopped or to a search of his property AND he notably refused to provide ID (like a driver's license). However, he was perfectly willing to give his name. In other words, he met the Hiibel standard - now the question really is does he have to show ID. That's fantastic... keep it up. I particularly like the part where you take the exact opposite of what I said and quote me as saying it... did you think that one up all by yourself, or did someone have to teach it to you? And great job of simply repeating denials in the face of facts, I'll bet you are almost convinced yourself, a few more repetitions should do the trick.... [sm=biggrin.gif]

Cuckme4Life -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 6:18:52 AM)
quote: Yeah, actually I think the thieves are a lot more clever than this system of security accounts for...the losses are occurring and nothing stops it. Here's a funny thing: do you know that the prison system in this country has an enormous contraband problem? Think about that for a moment. Such a thing would seem impossible, right? All those guards, all those security measures, all those cameras, hardly a moment's privacy, etc. When visitors enter a prison they are searched high and low, sometimes even a cavity search is required. So how does this mountain of contraband enter the prisons? Uh huh...the guards themselves bring it in. It's a well known fact. So that's all working out swell I guess. Concerning Correctional Officers bringing in contraband. You are absolutely right. I am not backing your comment up with news articles or related such sources. I am backing it up because I have been a Correctional Officer in Texas AND Tennessee. I have seen Sgts and LTs escorted out the door once caught. Cell phones was a biggie right as I was leaving the Texas system. One of the Texas units had a problem with contraband (mostly cell phones) coming in through peanut butter jars that inmates were getting via their commissary purchases. Slick thinking! Prison systems have to constantly stay on their toes to fresh ideas and ways that inmates get things in the gates. I cannot begin to count the times inmates would ask me to slip them cigarettes in Texas. Some serious money was always offered. And they were offering CASH. Yes, CASH!!! Eventually some officer is going to jump on that easy money. Just so happens it was not going to be me.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 6:22:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado ... (b) The officer's conduct did not violate Hiibel's Fourth Amendment rights. Ordinarily, an investigating officer is free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Amendment. That's called "obiter dictum." You're cherry picking what you want to see there. Read the case again, that's not the critical part of the decision. The statutory demand is that a person asked to stop and identify must give their name. The only defense for remaining silent is the real fear that providing the name is itself a kind of self-incrimination. That's what the case says. Actually, when an opinion references a legal precedent like the INS case mentioned in Hiibel, it is called 'stare decisis'. (BTW 'opinion' as in a legal ruling handed down by a court is very different than the common use of the word opinion in a dictum) I guess they didn't cover the difference where you got your legal education? Where was that again? Oh yes... Wikipedia and TV shows... Pardon me if I just keep stumbling along with the meager bits I've picked up in the last few decades of studying, working, and teaching in that field, instead of bowing to your clearly superior knowledge. [8\|]

SimplyMichael -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 6:53:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lazarus1983 quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I applaud this guy although fucking with the cop during a family reunion does smack of drama. Cops are control freaks with a gun, fuck with them only when you really really have to, then aim for the forehead, not center of mass. When his civil suit goes up against Circuit City, it will be interesting to see how that falls out. Cops are control freaks with a gun? My god, what a small minded sweeping generalization. I've had quite a lot of experience with the police, from my various jobs in security, as well as being harassed by them when working for the carnival, and being arrested by them and taken to jail. Cops are individuals, just like anyone else. To lop them all into the same category such as "control freaks with a gun" really isn't fair. Recomendations for cops coming from a security guard isn't exactly high praise. I am in, or at least have spent years in the firearms industry and have dealt with cops from both sides of the barrel in various countries. When cops become more concerned that their fellow cops obey the law and drop the us and them attitude, I might change my opinion.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:01:44 AM)
quote: ...have dealt with cops from both sides of the barrel... If you would stop pointing your guns at them they might get over that silly 'Us vs. them' thingy.[:D] (Ever read that study from Arizona that 'discovered' the number one predictor of the police using force against a citizen was that force had first been used against the police? Shocking stuff).

Cuckme4Life -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:12:43 AM)
I should have posted this concerning cops earlier as to their behavior as control freaks with a gun. 2 years ago I was driving on Union Ave. in Memphis. A cop car got behind me and pulled me over. I got out of my vehicle and the rookie of the 2 in the squad car went berserk because I exited my vehicle. The driver being the more experience had no choice but to back the screaming rookie up. Bad situation to be in. The problem? The "96" sticker had fell off or had been removed from my car tags. Thus a need to see if my tags are legal and updated or not. Ok I can understand that, but to be screamed at by the fresh Barney Fife rookie with his one bullet was out of line. I calmy said "Calm down." He got even more ballistic. At this time I insisted they call their rank to the scene because his behavior was in serious question and I did not trust him or felt safe around him. I leaned quietly on my vehicle and waited for a response. They thought of arresting me but they did not and actually did radio for a Sgt to come out. We were maybe 5 blocks from the Union Ave precint anyways. Lo and behold a Sgt did come out. He exited his vehicle and we immediately began grinning at one another. An old high school classmate!! This was an unexpected pleasure. Needless to say a certain rookie got his ass handed to him. They did run my tags and thats ok. They were up to date but I did need to go get that sticker replaced. One cannot help but wonder, where does it end? When will these police hirees figure out a way to weed out these potential self righteous hothead cops that think the badge is a license to pull whatever nonsense their feeble brains can conjure up? Point is, they answer to SOMEONE. And it should always be the taxpayer in the long haul. Barney Fife rules the police state, thats scarey! Edited typo errors

domiguy -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:24:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ...have dealt with cops from both sides of the barrel... If you would stop pointing your guns at them they might get over that silly 'Us vs. them' thingy.[:D] (Ever read that study from Arizona that 'discovered' the number one predictor of the police using force against a citizen was that force had first been used against the police? Shocking stuff). Just curious...I don't doubt this is the fact....I do wonder if this is based upon reports by police....The person that they beat up or killed or from bystanders?

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:28:26 AM)
quote: They were up to date but I did need to go get that sticker replaced. One cannot help but wonder, where does it end? When will these police hirees figure out a way to weed out these potential self righteous hothead cops that think the badge is a license to pull whatever nonsense their feeble brains can conjure up? When you weed people like that completely out of the pool of available candidates for police work. Until then, you are stuck with your fellow citizens.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:30:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ...have dealt with cops from both sides of the barrel... If you would stop pointing your guns at them they might get over that silly 'Us vs. them' thingy.[:D] (Ever read that study from Arizona that 'discovered' the number one predictor of the police using force against a citizen was that force had first been used against the police? Shocking stuff). Just curious...I don't doubt this is the fact....I do wonder if this is based upon reports by police....The person that they beat up or killed or from bystanders? From comparing police reports to self reports IIRC. The dead guys refused to respond.

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:44:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obis quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch The only thing that is going to come out of this is that Circuit City is going to post disclaimer signs on their entrances that say, "Mgt. reserves the right to search all bags on demand prior to leaving the store. Failure to comply may result in...blah blah blah.." It's great to know that even the dominant females here are submissive enough to do whatever anyone writes on a sign (I'm getting great new ideas for signs to post at my next munch)... After all, we accept when teaching our children that it's the small things that show real character. Anyone can be polite to the President when they meet him, it doesn't mean they're a nice person. But when you're rude to a waiter, THAT shows who you really are inside. Teach your children that it's wrong to steal a pack of gum and they'll be less likely to embezzle millions of dollars from a retirement fund later in life. You can't wait until they're 45 and thinking about embezzling to decide it's a "big enough" issue to start teaching them about right and wrong. Absolutely not. That isn't what I said. But I walk in there knowing the sad reality that shoplifting has a price. Everyone from the small retail store owner to the large chains have had to pay. I have no need to constantly thump my chest and proclaim aloud, "FOR ALL TO SEE- I DO NOT HAVE TO DO WHAT YOU SAY. YOU ARE TAKING AWAY MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. EVERYONE HERE, DO YOU SEE HOW I AM MAKING A STAND AGAINST THE TYRANNY OF THIS BIG CHAIN STORE" Blah blah blech! If I don't like it, I am free not to shop there. Sure it's not a law, a no, they may not have the authority to do it, but so what? Does it give you the impression that I am submissive because I don't make a stink about it? Fine, no skin off my back. These aren't the issues that I am worried about. Hey, can I see your receipt cuz I want to check it against the items in your bag? Uh, ok. Whatever.. You are all so quick to thump your chests and make all these proclamations and take all these big stands....ON PAPER! But do you actually DO anything about something you feel strongly about? Do you get up on a roof in 100 degree weather to build for Habitat? Do you collect, buy,load and deliver supplies to victims of natural disasters? Do you bust your ass raising money for families made homeless by fire? or abused wives and mothers? or people battling incurable disease? Do you complain about your kids teachers or school but never step foot inside the school or classroom; or buy extra stuff for the teacher so she/he doesn't have to spend more of their own money than they already do? When was the last time you stopped on the side walk to pick up a single piece of trash and put it in the trash, or did you simply choose to walk right by? Yeah, it IS the small things that show TRUE character Obis. I agree with you on this and that is what I try to teach my children. So, you want to see my receipt? Yeah, here ya go. People don't need to be assholes to make a difference or effect change. They need to be leaders. I know what I aspire to be, do you?

SugarMyChurro -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:45:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Actually, when an opinion references a legal precedent like the INS case mentioned in Hiibel, it is called 'stare decisis'. No, stare decisis is a settled doctrine or principle of law. A case stating or citing the principle is called a precedent. quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Pardon me if I just keep stumbling along with the meager bits I've picked up in the last few decades of studying, working, and teaching in that field... I can't, you keep making mistakes. The Hiibel case does not require that you show ID. It requires that you identify yourself by name. Hiibel did neither. The slippery part you want to emphasis but that the case does not in fact reach is that the word "identify" could mean to state one's name or to produce I.D. However, Hiibel does not require that one produce I.D. Here's a quote from Hiibel that needs to sink into your brain: "As we understand it, the statute does not require a suspect to give the officer a driver's license or any other document. Provided that the suspect either states his name or communicates it to the officer by other means--a choice, we assume, that the suspect may make--the statute is satisfied and no violation occurs. See id., at ___, 59 P. 3d, at 1206-1207." http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=542&page=177 So anyway, if you have a point I'd sure like to hear it.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:49:33 AM)
quote: So anyway, if you have a point I'd sure like to hear it. Highly unlikely, since you are working so hard to ignore and even misstate the point I made so clearly and simply from the beginning of this thread. I'll leave you to your fantasies and fallacies about things legal, and console myself by actually earning a living at it.

Cuckme4Life -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:50:03 AM)
Alumbrado! i just saw you are a fellow memphian!! cool beans!... and yes you are absolutely right... until then, heres to our fine citys police officers,,, insert the sarcasm here,, memphis,,the laughingstock of the nation no thanx to great leadership by king willie h.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:50:36 AM)
That is a topic that could eat up hundred of pages...[:D]

SugarMyChurro -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 7:56:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado I'll leave you to your fantasies and fallacies about things legal, and console myself by actually earning a living at it. I'll take that as an admission that you know you are wrong and that I caught you out at it. I know it's hard when the case you cited itself denies the very issue you keep insisting upon. You reached for authority and the authority was not there. Thanks for playing though...

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 8:02:23 AM)
Tell you what... find yourself an authority you will accept.. a judge, or a law professor let's say. Then tell them what you are on record as saying here...that when the USSC referenced the earlier INS decision in Hiibel, it was not stare decisis but was instead merely a dictum. Then tell them that the Court held that it is unconstitutional for any US citizen to be forced to show ID. If they don't laugh in your face, rest assured it will be out of pity, not admiration at your legal acumen.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 8:20:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Tell you what... find yourself an authority you will accept.. a judge, or a law professor let's say. Then tell them what you are on record as saying here...that when the USSC referenced their earlier INS decision in Hiibel, it was not stare decisis but was instead merely a dictum. A previous decision is a precedent case. If it states a well settled doctrine or principle of law then that doctrine or principle is considered stare decisis and binds lowers courts to that same doctrine or principle. You should be more precise... quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Then tell them that the Court held that it is unconstitutional for any US citizen to ever be forced to show ID. Well, so far no statute requires it and those that have were found to be unconstitutionally vague. See: KOLENDER v. LAWSON, 461 U.S. 352 (1983) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=461&invol=352 It's an important issue because this while idea of "show me your papers" is one of the few things keeping the U.S. from being perceived as the police state that it actually is becoming of late. BTW, I take the ad hominem attacks as the best evidence that you have given up any attempts at rational argument.

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 8:23:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch This guy is an idiot. He wasted everyone's time just to prove he is an idiot who just MUST take a stand. Why not take a stand on a societal ill, rather than proving to everyone that "I'm not doing it and you're not gonna make me. neener neener neener." Fucking dick... BossyShoeBitch: From now on every time you bring your fine ass into my store I am going to frisk you on the way out just to make sure you haven't been doing any shop lifting...yeah hon we are talking cavity search here[;)] thompson Nothing wrong with that.. grins But you will probably have to go through SimplyMichael to get to me. Unless of course you respectfully ask his permission, in which case he'll probably be only to happy to help you access my "cavities"...[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m20.gif[/image] BossyShoeBitch: Mikey and me have been buds since before he changed names and avitars...no doubt in my mind he would film it and sell tickets. Are you familiar with the term "air tight"[;)] thompson Yes, I do believe I am familiar with the term. Hmmm.. Thompson...? Funny how your name hasn't seemed to come up one single time in our many, many hours of conversation? I assume you are also familiar with the term "passing acquaintance"? By the way, I believe He would be the first to tell you... The name is not Mikey or even Mike, it's Michael.

Alumbrado -> RE: NEVER stop and show a receipt on the way out... (9/4/2007 8:41:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Tell you what... find yourself an authority you will accept.. a judge, or a law professor let's say. Then tell them what you are on record as saying here...that when the USSC referenced their earlier INS decision in Hiibel, it was not stare decisis but was instead merely a dictum. A previous decision is a precedent case. If it states a well settled doctrine or principle of law then that doctrine or principle is considered stare decisis and binds lowers courts to that same doctrine or principle. You should be more precise... quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Then tell them that the Court held that it is unconstitutional for any US citizen to ever be forced to show ID. Well, so far no statute requires it and those that have were found to be unconstitutionally vague. See: KOLENDER v. LAWSON, 461 U.S. 352 (1983) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=461&invol=352 It's an important issue because this while idea of "show me your papers" is one of the few things keeping the U.S. from being perceived as the police state that it actually is becoming of late. BTW, I take the ad hominem attacks as the best evidence that you have given up any attempts at rational argument. I'm on record as saying that there are instances where it is constitutional to compel someone to produce identificaton, and I've supplied references such as the INS one which you ignore with a derail about 'obiter dictum'. (Anyone who has ever entered a military installation or customs checkpoint is well aware of the authority for mandatory searches and ID, also constitutional). You are claiming that to be wrong, and your support has been TV shows, Wiki, and your own definitions that don't agree with any legal source. If you are correct and there are no instances where it is constitutional, why the need for debate tricks such as claiming personal attacks, or implying that I've advocated an extreme position, or that I approve of unconstitutional abuses? .

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