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A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 5:39:21 AM

missturbation

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I've quite often heard the term 'play punishment' used here in cm and am wondering what 'play punishment' is?

For me punishment is never play and is only used when i need correcting. I cannot understand how the dynamic of differentiating between 'play punishment' and 'real punishment' would work?

Punishment for me is quite simple, i need clear lines and in general to know if i cross them what will happen. The cane is my form of punishment and i associate the cane at present only with punishment. I have never liked the cane for reasons i won't go into but find for myself that this is a very good form of punishment because i dread it with a vengeance.
So also wondering if others need those clear lines and to know what will happen if they cross them?

Also maybe naively i thought all slaves / submissives were punished in some way but reading this from another thread made me question my thoughts.
'Why on earth would i want to associate with an adult i had to punish to begin with?'
Are there many subs / slaves out there who are not punished?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

Post #: 1

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 5:55:29 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
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miss,

What I deem punishable are things that cross boundaries that are important to me. Lying, punishable, possibly even a relationship breaker depending upon frequency and severity.

Play punishment, in my opinion is more along the lines of giving a massochist a reward. In some cases, I've known people who like to 'feel naughty' and want to be 'punished'. They aren't actually doing anything that affects the relationship, or goes against 'the rules' per se, but they want to feel 'corrected', playfully. Ya know, a slutty one, being slutty, saying "I've been bad", and the owner agreeing and telling them, "bend over my knee" or whatever form of play punishment they have in mind.

Quite simply, in my opinion, it's just role play - the punishment part of the phrase could be eliminated altogether.

However, when I use the term, I often refer it to mean something else entirely. I receive many mails from prospective slaves wanting me to do all sorts of things to them. Who hasn't? Many times it's massochists who write wanting to be punished. Obviously, they don't mean they want to be punished, they mean, they want to be hurt. In my opinion, they are attempting to convince me to 'punish' them so that they get the pain they are craving - which is 'play'. So I see 'play punishment' as a negative phrase in this context, because I do not like when people attempt to manipulate me, or when they are not honest enough with themselves to ask for what they really want.

I hope that made sense...it's too early to try to explain my opinion.

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RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 5:55:43 AM

TotalState

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I can explain my views on 'play punishment' in three words:

Suspension of disbelief.

In my relationship, any punishment I'm doling out is a part of a scene - a kink, a pleasure (of a sorts) to both participants. We suspend disbelief to let ourselves believe that the submissive has 'been bad' and needs correcting...which is a major turn-on for us. The only difference between the punishment I deal out that isn't 'deserved' (for example, a spanking that is asked for) and the one that is (sub 'being bad') is in the mental aspect, and thus intensity, of it.

Basically, to me, it's all a mind game. And if it's done well, there is a strong difference in how it feels.

(in reply to missturbation)

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RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 5:57:48 AM

catize

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I get irritated when play and punishment are used together; I think it muddies the water unnecessarily. I prefer the term pain play to keep it separate from punishment.

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RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 5:58:25 AM

came4U

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If punishment is 'play' I would likely not learn a thing and even more likely to offend again.

If I were punished, he better damn well mean it. It better be more than a stupid mistake on my part also. I wouldn't need punishing though, I would be fairly low maintenance in that department. I know what I am doing and what I want. So, I guess those that teach and guide via punishment tactics are set-up sadists. They know a girl will fail yet omit teaching appropriate ways to avoid the punishment should be the game. He is never happy, she never learns and a lot of wasted time goes by in a vicious circle. That doesn't sound like a relationship to me if no goals are met.

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RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 6:06:53 AM

Stephann

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From: Portland, OR
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Hiya miss,

There was recently a related thread on this here.

'Play punishment' is usually just another way of saying 'kinky activities.' I remember in Marine boot camp, sometimes we'd be standing on line at attention, and the drill instructors would spend an hour (or three) leaping from one recruit to the other, actively looking for something wrong with each recruit for the express purpose of pointing it out, and terrify the living hell out of him. A buckle not tight enough, fingers not curled right, eyes not staring ahead, even just being ugly was enough of an excuse for five minutes worth of grilling, insults, and just plain stress. The point at the time, was to prepare us for situations in combat, where we're required to be calm, collective, and decisive under enormous amounts of pressure. I'm not submissive nor do I enjoy bottoming, but I can see how certain personality types would immensely enjoy this sort of 'attention.' I think the concept of 'play' punishment strongly relates to the sort of heightened sensations involved with disciplinary activities; it's intense, it requires the dominant to invest a great deal of time and attention on the submissive, and it can be used to assert a sense of (if not actual) boundaries and control.

As for adults that we have to punish....that's a critical feeling that some submissives have. Not that they're broken or damaged to begin with, but rather the sense that they know they can and will be punished for 'wrong' behavior enables an environment where they no longer feel ashamed or responsible for doing things they otherwise would be ashamed of.

Personally, I rarely feel the need to punish, beyond a sharp word.

Stephan

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Post #: 6

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 6:08:13 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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I agree.

Punishment, real punishment, should only be doled if necessary. There is a completely different mind set and both parties are fully aware that it is not 'play time'. That is why when I see people asking to be punished, it irritates me. Why not just tell me you like pain and ask me if I'd be happy to provide it?

However, in a relationship, if the slave wants to role-play, and I'm in the mood, I have no issue with that either - so long as he is fully aware that it isnt 'real punishment', and I'd make certain to inform him of that.

I'm fairly simple to figure out. If I'm punishing a person for real (as in not playing), they are going to be informed of what the offense was, and my verbal tones and facial expressions will very clearly express my displeasure. If I'm playing, there is no actual offense stated, and my verbal tones and facial expressions very clearly express my playfullness. There are no mix ups, really, because this would be discussed in advance. Never would I intentionally set someone up for failure.

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RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 6:34:29 AM

slavegirljoy

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For me, it's just a matter of the mindset of the people involved. Some people enjoy being made to feel like they have been "bad" and "need to be punished" and others don't, they just want to be punished only if they have actually committed an offense.

Some people like to roleplay different scenerios that involve play punishment, such as when one is "The Cop" and the other is "The Offender", being questioned, arrested, strip-searched, put in 'lock-up', etc., etc., or roleplay as "The Headmaster", at a private school with "The Student" being brought into the office for some infraction of the rules, etc., and so on. It just depends on what the particular people are interested/involved in/turned-on by. That's what "play punishment" is to me, any way. Others may certainly have another way of looking at it. To me, "play punishment" is all about sex and roleplaying is a fun way to heighten the sexual experience, for some.

For me, i have enjoyed some roleplay in the past with some Doms but, my current Master isn't interested in roleplay, so i am never "punished" for playonly. He only punishes me, if i actually need it and deserve it. He never uses any infliction of pain to punish me, because He knows how wet and excited i get by that and it's just not punishing to me.

When my Master punishes me, it is by either making me have "corner time", which i hate, or by not allowing me to serve Him for a specified period of time, which i hate even more. i'm not punished that often, because i have learned, through His punishments and disciplinary actions, what He doesn't want me to do. And, i have learned through seeing His approval and satisfaction and delight, what it is He does want me to do. His punishments are effective teaching tools to use on me because He knows these are things that will help me to remember what it is He doesn't want me to do.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David
_________________________________________
"I'll go stand in the corner later for my punishment." "I'm not very good at giving myself punishment."

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I've quite often heard the term 'play punishment' used here in cm and am wondering what 'play punishment' is?

For me punishment is never play and is only used when i need correcting. I cannot understand how the dynamic of differentiating between 'play punishment' and 'real punishment' would work?

Punishment for me is quite simple, i need clear lines and in general to know if i cross them what will happen. The cane is my form of punishment and i associate the cane at present only with punishment. I have never liked the cane for reasons i won't go into but find for myself that this is a very good form of punishment because i dread it with a vengeance.
So also wondering if others need those clear lines and to know what will happen if they cross them?

Also maybe naively i thought all slaves / submissives were punished in some way but reading this from another thread made me question my thoughts.
'Why on earth would i want to associate with an adult i had to punish to begin with?'
Are there many subs / slaves out there who are not punished?

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 8

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 6:57:08 AM

SunNMoon

Posts: 1058
Joined: 3/18/2007
Status: offline

FR

I’m seeing three different categories (at least for me)

1)     Punishment: which if you did some thing wrong, lying ect. Would then result in some form of discipline being given. Through I’m personally in the camp of “Why on earth would I want to associate with an adult I had to punish to begin with,” which translates to me saying “I’m disappointed, how are we going to fix things.”

2)     Pain play: Using impact or through means to cause pain. For reasons not related to discipline.

3)      Punishment play: Which is a form of role play. Such as you’ve been such a naughty boy, and I’m going to have to punish you. I see it as more just for play and not at all related to correcting behavior, and a suspension of reality.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 9

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:02:29 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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"play punishment" is merely one type of scene.

Punishment that is "real" -- i.e., designed and carried out as aversive stimulus in order to modify slave behavior -- is part of a 24/7 relationship dynamic, and is most definitely NOT a scene.

It if's a scene, it's play. If it's not a scene, it's real. As long as the dom makes it clear which is which, there should be no issue.

_____________________________

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Post #: 10

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:06:00 AM

TotalState

Posts: 278
Joined: 9/3/2007
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That said it more succinctly than I managed to. Basically, any real punishment I'd be doling out wouldn't be pain. And if my sub really did something I was unhappy about, I would be talking about it with her, just like I would in any relationship.

Frankly, me being unhappy would be the worst punishment to her.

(in reply to SunNMoon)

Post #: 11

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:17:36 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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Quite simply, in my opinion, it's just role play - the punishment part of the phrase could be eliminated altogether.

Thanks, thats really clear to me. I was having trouble with it being referred to as play punishment rather than role play. I thought (maybe a blonde moment) it was something entirely different.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Domin8tingUrDrmz)

Post #: 12

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:20:12 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

I can explain my views on 'play punishment' in three words:

Suspension of disbelief.

In my relationship, any punishment I'm doling out is a part of a scene - a kink, a pleasure (of a sorts) to both participants. We suspend disbelief to let ourselves believe that the submissive has 'been bad' and needs correcting...which is a major turn-on for us. The only difference between the punishment I deal out that isn't 'deserved' (for example, a spanking that is asked for) and the one that is (sub 'being bad') is in the mental aspect, and thus intensity, of it.

Basically, to me, it's all a mind game. And if it's done well, there is a strong difference in how it feels.

Forgive me but this is where i get confused. Pleasure from serious punishment? Are you referring to the release after the punishment that is felt or actual pleasure from the punishment.
See in my mind punishment is not for my pleasure (not to say it should be that way for everyone).

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to TotalState)

Post #: 13

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:21:24 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I get irritated when play and punishment are used together; I think it muddies the water unnecessarily. I prefer the term pain play to keep it separate from punishment.

They don't fit together for me either lol.
Mind you saying that i dont like the word play either. I dont feel like im playing when with Sir!

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 14

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:22:57 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

If punishment is 'play' I would likely not learn a thing and even more likely to offend again

me too

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to came4U)

Post #: 15

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:45:44 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I've quite often heard the term 'play punishment' used here in cm and am wondering what 'play punishment' is?

It's when you pretend to be punished.

Being "punished" turns some people, like me, on. Real punishment is writing essays or copying out grammar rules. Play punishment is being forced against the wall and being told how bad I am.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to missturbation)

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RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 7:51:55 AM

feastie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

That said it more succinctly than I managed to. Basically, any real punishment I'd be doling out wouldn't be pain. And if my sub really did something I was unhappy about, I would be talking about it with her, just like I would in any relationship.

Frankly, me being unhappy would be the worst punishment to her.

Precisely.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to TotalState)

Post #: 17

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 8:05:53 AM

TotalState

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Joined: 9/3/2007
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I meant that all punishment is roleplay. Otherwise, something is wrong in my relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Forgive me but this is where i get confused. Pleasure from serious punishment? Are you referring to the release after the punishment that is felt or actual pleasure from the punishment.
See in my mind punishment is not for my pleasure (not to say it should be that way for everyone).

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

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Post #: 18

RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 8:10:34 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
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Role play is a good example of play punishment. Put on the short plaid skirt, the tight white blouse and pretend to be a schoolgirl who didn't do her homework. Then she gets 'punished' by the school teacher.

I know a Domme who will order her fiance to buy the winning lottery ticket. For them, that's a sort of shorthand to get his mind not thinking about the noise the car is making, but to get ready for a fun evening, because obviously there is no way for him to guarantee the ticket he bought would be a winner.

It's a way to make wiitwd more fun, less serious. And what's wrong with that?

(in reply to TotalState)

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RE: A question or 2 on punishment!! - 9/3/2007 8:15:31 AM

yss

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To me, things like caning are about marking property and deepening/reinforcing my function, which is to please my Dom. (Plus I love the marks it leaves so it certainly wouldn't be a punishment to me.) I can see where punishment play can have a place in some dynamics, and where punishment or correction might be necessary, but . . . dang, I'd be really disappointed in myself to draw one. :-(

yss

(in reply to Domin8tingUrDrmz)

Post #: 20

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