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RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/4/2007 8:27:28 AM

Alumbrado

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To answer the thread topic question, in about the same manner as 'legals' affect the economy.

Some people cheat on their taxes whether they are here legally or not, some abuse social servies, some commit crimes and run down property values, some devalue job markets... and on the other hand, some people do extra to contribute to the general welfare in a myriad of ways, again, whether they are legal or not.

This immigration 'issue' is economics at work, lines on a map, and words in a law book are superimposed on who and what people are...

One day, the nth generation American fishermen in the Florida Gulf were law abiding ctizens, the next day, after some politician signed a regulation on net size, they were 'illegals', forced to use illegal nets to illegally get enough fish to support their families. Those who stayed legal either starved, or got out of fishing altogether.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 9/4/2007 8:42:24 AM >

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 21

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/4/2007 8:58:24 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

As I have said, many times, before I live in a primarily Central/South American immigrant community. I would estimate that the majority of my neighbors are here, legally but I am quite sure that the chasm between illegal and legal immigrants is not that wide.

I am involved in helping these people to assimilate into our society. Unfortunately, on the whole, they have no desire to assimilate past learning just enough to scam the system.

I had grandparents that were immigrants from Germany, Italy, and Ireland. While my ancestors from Ireland didn't have a "language" barrier to worry about, they had other factors that hurt them in their attempts to become part of their new homeland.

My German and Italian grandparents had to contend with learning a new language among all the other things but, they did that and they worked hard and they embraced their new homeland and set about to become a part of it and to help it prosper.

What I have seen from the "Latino" community is an attitude that appears to resemble: "So what if we violated your laws and came here, illegally. We are here and you have to "tolerate" (that's pronounced: "kiss our ass" for those of you in Poughkeepsie) us. You HAVE to learn our language and conduct government business in our language. We will NOT teach our children your language so you MUST have bi-lingual education in your schools which the population at large will pay for since we can't declare our earnings. You HAVE to provide translation services free of charge, when we have to go to court. You HAVE to change your way of life to accommodate us and that's just the way it is.

I have a hard time mustering a whole lot of sympathy for the way the system treats a group of people who, on the whole, berate and denigrate the system and the country that seems to be willing to kiss their collective ass with regards to making their transition into our society as painless as possible.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Michael:
I have lived in southern California for more than fifty years. I will say that your perception and my perception differ somewhat (that is pronounced "what a crock of shit")
The United States has no national language. If you do not like that then lobby your stooge in Washington to change it. The other side of that position is that should the Latinos come to control the ballot box they might instead make Spanish the national language.
There is no bilingual education in California. That being said, riddle me this. When I was in high school a foreign language was a prerequisite to graduation. When I was in college a foreign language was a prerequisite for graduation (it could not be the same as the one you took in high school) A teacher must, in most cases, be a college graduate. If the teacher's diplomas are worth somewhat more than the paper they are printed on then that teacher should,by definition, be tri-lingual and not have any trouble communicating with his or her students.
Refusal to learn a foreign language is simply self imposed ignorance.
thompson

(in reply to Satyr6406)

Post #: 22

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 6:07:21 AM

favesclava

Posts: 1608
Joined: 2/15/2007
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my!!!! how do you become so good at telling us apart? how the fuck do you know they're all mexicans? i'm puerto rican a us citizen by birth. can you tell by looking at me or just because i might be working at a job you dont want because its below your dignity? there hindus and philipinos that look hispanic. mixed blacks that look hispanic. some are dominican , venezuelan ,guatemalan , british. so sick of people blaming it all on mexican. do any of you have any idea how many white europeans come into this country illegally?through canadian border?
here in Michigan there was an article about a pear growers who's farm had been in the family for a 100 years (i wonder who the land belonged to before that) because of the immigration backlash ,migrant workers , legal or not did not travel here for the growing season. he had a bumper crop and he stated in the article that he he would hear the pears plunking down at night and couldnt sleep because of the loss.
they should have sent all those legal welfare recipents to pick the damn pears.
yes , if i needed a job i would go pick apples, pears ,asparagus ,whatever. i wouldn't whine about others getting the job done.

< Message edited by favesclava -- 9/5/2007 6:16:51 AM >

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 23

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 6:14:03 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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You get all these illegal aliens in from Mars and what not, and you have to have more Men in Black, that simple.

R

woo-woo-woo-woo---here come the men in black---

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(in reply to favesclava)

Post #: 24

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 6:44:57 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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I am getting a little sick of hearing about how horrible we are to illegal migrants. Take a trip down to the bowels of Mexico and see how they treat the people that are coming here. It is a widespread lie in the United States that Mexico is a poor country. It isn't, and it hasn't been for over a century. Mexico is wealthy and there is plenty to go around, but unfortunately they have had one corrupt government after another since there independence from Spain. The people that come here can't find jobs in their home country, because their home country is a fiefdom.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 25

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 6:57:59 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

but unfortunately they have had one corrupt government after another since there independence

Well, to be fair, we are trying to catch up on that count...

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 26

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 7:04:23 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sounds like you need to call the Police.

Do you really think Sting and the rest of them will be able to help?

Sinergy

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(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 27

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 7:28:50 AM

mnottertail

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you will find your servant is your master-----------------

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 28

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 7:42:51 AM

KatyLied

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From: Pennsylvania
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I will listen hard to your tuition,
And you will see it come to it's fruition.

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Post #: 29

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 8:11:51 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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Walked out this morning, dont believe what I saw
Hundred billion immigrants washed up on the shore
Seems Im not alone at being alone
Hundred billion castaways, looking for a home

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Post #: 30

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 8:17:03 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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Pharoahs spin the message, round and round the truth.
They could have saved a million people, How can I tell you?

John Fogarty

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 31

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 8:32:11 AM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Mexico is wealthy and there is plenty to go around, but unfortunately they have had one corrupt government after another since there independence from Spain.

yeh just like america since we have had independence from the founders :)

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(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 32

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 8:46:09 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: itseeks
I am not against people who come here to work and make a living if they do it the legal way but it burns me up if they do it illegaly and make it hard for others to make a living.

Of course, they're hear illegally, because many on your side of this issue, have blocked any chance to get resolution, by offering up scare tactics and complete fabrications.

Look at my friend Popeye ... he comes here every month or so, and posts the same crap again and again, as if saying it over and over will make it true.

He claims that there are sufficient American laborers to do these jobs, if only we would raise the wage. That's just flately, a load of crap. In many parts of the country, there just aren't sufficient workers at all. Take South Texas for instance, with very little unemployment and a huge shortage of workers. You just couldn't raise wages high enough to attract workers to move here ... first of all, it's mostly seasonal work, and most importantly, if agra prices went up significantly, people would just opt to by import agra ... and take a guess where they would get it? Face facts, American consumers want it cheap, cheap, cheap.

Popeye paints a picture of a bunch of fat cats, making a killing employing slave labor. That must be fantasy art, because there is no reality to it. The agra industry in the south is profitable, but fragile. There aren't killings to be made ... period.

The real issue here, is the need for a guest worker program, so people can come here legally, make enough money to feed their family, and go back home. Believe it or not, most don't actually want to live here ... it's just much more expensive than living in Mexico.

But, we won't get a guest worker program, because people on one side want to include blanket amnesty, and people on the other want to use scare tactics to blind people to the facts.

I feel your pain, and I'm sorry about your work situation, but this is a typical American problem ... one we can't solve, because both sides are pretty much full of shit.

Off to class ... catch you all laterzzz.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 9/5/2007 8:49:17 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 8:55:05 AM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: itseeks

I agree with you popeye make every one know who they are maybe make there wear a sign "I am unamerican I take food from your kids mouths"

"Non-documented workers don't take food from your kids mouths.. the employers who hire them do". I'm very sorry this happened to you.

Once again, there is a call for all illegals not to show up for work today to show their impact on the economy (which will be pretty much like sticking their finger in a bucket of water to see what kind of hole it leaves).

The last time they tried this, those that are here legally, went to work, as they are pretty fed up with their illegal brethern also.

Remember the Alamo.

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I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to itseeks)

Post #: 34

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 9:05:57 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

Real, I have been to Wisconsin. Why do you believe this shit? There wasn't anything nefarious going on when I was up there. I was in Milwaulkee, the Fox Valley and around Eau Claire. I am really trying to figure you out, man. I just don't get it. You live in one of the whitest states in the country. Most of the fringe groups come from those areas. What the fuck are ya'll seeing up there in the upper midwest that makes you this suspicious? I just don't get it.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 35

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the econemy ? - 9/5/2007 10:17:32 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

He claims that there are sufficient American laborers to do these jobs, if only we would raise the wage. That's just flately, a load of crap. In many parts of the country, there just aren't sufficient workers at all.

...purely out of curiosity, is there an overview of the unemployment/jobs unfilled anywhere? That describes the situation at the state or, better still, federal level?

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 36

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 10:24:39 AM

ChainsandFreedom

Posts: 222
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline

Any time someone opens up their argument with the word 'illeagles', you know right away their biased.

I don't refer to almost everyone I know as 'repeat traffic offenders', I don't refer to my nehbor as 'elderly parapalegic on disability insurance', I don't refer to my boss as 'stop at nothing to with-hold commision', and I don't (always) refer to the president as 'officer once cited for deriliction of duty during war-time'.

when you reduce a discussion about people to their legal status, you're being derogitory and biased right out of the gate.

The fact of the matter is, the American constitution is a social contract based upon the Magna Carta. That means that the government's authority comes from serving the people, not the other way around. You can redifine what a 'citizen' is, if you want to go against the supreme court's precidents abolishing slavery and establishing universal sufferage/right to own property, but to say that millions of people who permanantly live and work in the US arn't citizens and don't have rights is pretty un-American and un-just. To support that kind of immigrant legislation, by an extension of logic, is to support a government that can declare your livlihood illeagle and deny you your rights for basically any reason...leagally speaking, accepting the laws dealing with 'illegle immigrant' status threatens every single Americans own citizenship status down the road.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 37

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 10:58:02 AM

GhitaAmati

Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
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I live in what is often reffered to as the horse capitol of america...I dont really think it is but it makes the rich horse owners here happy...anyway...

The company I worked for for 10 years supplied all the feed and hay to hundreds of multimillion dollar horse farms every week....why anyone would spend that type of money on overgrown lawn ornaments is beside me...anyway....

Most of them hire some sort of hispanic labor...mexicans, quatemalans, puerto ricans, cubans,,yall get the idea. They work hard, they are great with the horses, and they dont insist on being paid $20/hr even when they dont show up to work on time. The farms down here are constantly under attack from people who are angry they are hiring "illegal" workers. Its funny how many people see a hispanic worker shoveling horse manure and automatically assume they must be illegal. Hell...I know a couple of those "hispanic" workers who actually own a few of those multimillion dollar horse farms themselves! I took a night job working for one of them. Angel and I were there late one afternoon fixing a fence that a horse had gone through. He was dressed in jeans and a tshirt, same as the rest of us workers, covered in dirt and creosote....even though he's got more in his bank account than I could ever hope to earn in my lifetime. A delivery truck pulled in with something, I cant remember what now..and because Angel was the "hispanic" looking one of the bunch, the driver started barking orders to him to help unload the truck. Needless to say....that driver no longer has a job....

Most of the "hispanic" workers around here are legal...and there are lots of them. If you get into a conversation with them about the whole immigration issue...most of them sound just about like the rest of us...they think the borders need to be closed and they get angry about the idea that tons of people might just get handed the things they worked very hard to earn for themselves and their family...

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(in reply to ChainsandFreedom)

Post #: 38

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 11:14:34 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

When Murrow's 'Harvest of Shame' came out in 1960, the prologue pointed out how many of the migrants were citizens... almost half a century later, there are many more 2nd and 3rd generation citizens underpinning our food basket ( and profits).

If anyone doesn't 'know' at this point in the game that migrants and illegals are not all one and the same, it is because they don't want to know

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 39

RE: How do illegal Aliens effect the economy ? - 9/5/2007 11:17:08 AM

Estring

Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom

Any time someone opens up their argument with the word 'illeagles', you know right away their biased.

I don't refer to almost everyone I know as 'repeat traffic offenders', I don't refer to my nehbor as 'elderly parapalegic on disability insurance', I don't refer to my boss as 'stop at nothing to with-hold commision', and I don't (always) refer to the president as 'officer once cited for deriliction of duty during war-time'.

when you reduce a discussion about people to their legal status, you're being derogitory and biased right out of the gate.

The fact of the matter is, the American constitution is a social contract based upon the Magna Carta. That means that the government's authority comes from serving the people, not the other way around. You can redifine what a 'citizen' is, if you want to go against the supreme court's precidents abolishing slavery and establishing universal sufferage/right to own property, but to say that millions of people who permanantly live and work in the US arn't citizens and don't have rights is pretty un-American and un-just. To support that kind of immigrant legislation, by an extension of logic, is to support a government that can declare your livlihood illeagle and deny you your rights for basically any reason...leagally speaking, accepting the laws dealing with 'illegle immigrant' status threatens every single Americans own citizenship status down the road.

Lol. You are funny. By the way, it is spelled "illegal".

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Post #: 40

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