When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (Full Version)

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sweetNsmartBBW -> When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 11:47:00 AM)

Hi...I have a question that stems from a conversation with a dom that is very active in the local scene and claims to be well respected and accepted.  He gave me the following 'advice':  "...be careful who you meet for coffee as
if they are a true dom and they like you, you wiull not have
a choice about what goes on in your pants by the time you get
back to your car - or are you a sub sho never loses or
control or submits?"

Now, it's good advice, I know- but this Dom was condoning such behavior on the part of  dominants.  He said that because the men I have met have exercised self restraint they were not 'real' doms.  That of the ~thousands~ of Doms and subs he has met, they have all affirmed that a dom takes what he wants and a REAL sub is submissive to ANY true Dom she meets.  The exact quote was "A sub is a sub". 

I'd love to hear some of the views of other Doms, as when I asked for clarification from the one that made the quote- I was told that he would not indulge me with answers because I was not really submissive.  Could be because I accused him of being a sexual predator that hid behind his title and used his dominant orientation as an excuse to victimize women.  He had no notion of the idea of consent being a valid concept- not if the woman in question was submissive.   That not being submissive to ANY 'real dom" makes a submissive  ambivalent or undecided about who she is.  He literally told me that I was the ~one~ exception to the THOUSANDS of subs he knows. 

Oh, and I should mention, when I said I was bringing this to the boards for the opinions of others, I was told that the folks online are "less genuine" than others, and that it would be a futile attempt at self affirmation on my part.

So, my question is this: When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault?  Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no?  (Just playing devil's advocate)



Celeste43 -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 11:51:24 AM)

Bull shit! I'm submissive to one, not to everyone.

And when is it submission versus when is it abuse? When the sub consents, it is submission. When she does not consent, that's abuse.

As far as his 'every real dom rapes every female in sight' routine, he'll understand the difference when it's him in jail being the submissive.
Mature adults have self control, no ifs, ands or buts. That includes not stealing a brand new BMW when the owner goes inside to pay for gas leaving the keys in it for a minute, not punching his boss in the nose when given a four hour plus project Friday at 4:45, or raping unwilling women.



IrishMist -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 11:53:04 AM)

Let me finish laughing at his absurd claims and then I will attempt to actually answer this.



wittman40 -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:06:17 PM)

Umm, just because someone has a dominant personality or self-identifies as a Dom doesn't mean that they have the right to do whatever they want in the presence of a clear, enunciated, "No".

To say otherwise is like saying that because I'm artistic I should get to walk into people's homes and spraypaint grafitti on their walls and furniture because I'm an "artist". Utter BS.


I think that about the only way in which I could see any semblance of reality in this is if we imagine what he meant to say ( but poorly communicated ) was that if you meet someone who is dominant and is compatible with you then you will quickly find yourself submitting to/being overpowered ( in an emotional and intellectual manner ) by them in such a way that you will lose your inhibitions and seek to submit to them rather rapidly.  But even that's a stretch and being quite generous in re-interpreting what he looks like he is actually saying.


As to what he says about the online community. Well all he is doing there is falling prey to the human tendency to believe that whatever we do is "normal" or at least "more normal" than it really is ( in this case he is normalising with respect to the subgroup to which he feels he belongs, aka BDSMers ) . One of the reasons online BDSM communities are so popular is that by joining them a lot of people in the lifestyle get to meet far more people into the lifestyle than they know in real life. Surrounding themselves by an accepting peer group ( i.e. the members of collarme ) helps them to "normalise" our kinks in their own minds.

Personally I think the key is to just get that sense of surety within yourself and not be bothered about norms or anything like that so long as it is fulfilling for you and yours but that's the underlying psychological drive behind much of what goes on on these fora.


Long story short though: No means no and I don't care how Dom or dominant or Masterful someone is anyone who doesn't accept that ( except when it is recognised as part of established play etc etc ) is simply a rapist and I'd happily volunteer to give them the injection or pull whatever lever their state uses.



AquaticSub -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:12:12 PM)

Actually I think it's bullshit advice, for the reasons cited above by the nice people.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:19:31 PM)

Anyone can do whatever they want- as long as everyone is agreed beforehand.

The question is- did he tell all the people he met beforehand that they could expect this dynamic?  I know PLENTY of subs who love meeting doms with this sort of attitude and get very excited about it.

I'm not quite sure what getting into a woman's pants has to do with dominance though.



toservez -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:21:54 PM)

Part of dealing with people in this life is separating people’s propaganda of how they wish life could be from reality. It is easy to just toss off a person as an abuser, loser or insane when they come up with these types of outrageous thoughts but sometimes these are decent and sane people that momentarily or without thinking in an effort to chest pump their dominance or in the perfect world in the alternative universe how life should/could be like.

The guy who mentioned this could be a total loser or just thinking he is doing his part to spread his view of the gospel and therefore you are not his submissive or you are not interested in him so he feels safe to utter such crap.

It becomes abuse when the person taking it no longer willingly or unwillingly benefits from the situation and/or can no longer make good decisions or defend themselves. We often refer to this as consensual non consensual and identifying yourself as submissive means in no way as everyone reading this knows as consensually give the right to anyone calling themselves dominant rights that every other human on the planet does not have.

Edited to fix the meaning in the last sentence.



iammachine -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:34:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

Hi...I have a question that stems from a conversation with a dom that is very active in the local scene and claims to be well respected and accepted.


Those that need to talk, rarely have anything to talk about. Anyone can make any claim they want. References and actual reputation speak a lot louder than any self promotion.

quote:

  He gave me the following 'advice':  "...be careful who you meet for coffee as
if they are a true dom and they like you, you wiull not have
a choice about what goes on in your pants by the time you get
back to your car - or are you a sub sho never loses or
control or submits?"
Warning! Warning! Danger, Will Robinson!
quote:



Now, it's good advice, I know- but this Dom was condoning such behavior on the part of  dominants.  He said that because the men I have met have exercised self restraint they were not 'real' doms.  That of the ~thousands~ of Doms and subs he has met, they have all affirmed that a dom takes what he wants and a REAL sub is submissive to ANY true Dom she meets. 


No, it's not good advice, it's him validating his perspective. Well yes and no, you should be careful, but the rest, as they say, is bullshit. I'm wondering how many restraining orders this guy has had set against him.

Bullocks to his opinion of what is "real". There is no bloody One True Way, it's all a matter of preference. His preference, I would say, is rather suspect, being as no consent => not so ethical => jail time. Just because someone is a dominant, doesn't mean they have the right to dominate absolutely anything and anyone they come across. No negotiation means no protocol established, means you can kiss my switchy ass, bucko. The same goes for subs that think they must be submissive to any Dom/me they run across, I'm sorry sugar, but you are not *my* sub, and I am not obligated to top you, just as you are not obligated to lick my boots. You can get off of your knees now, I didn't ask you to be down there.

quote:

Could be because I accused him of being a sexual predator that hid behind his title and used his dominant orientation as an excuse to victimize women.  He had no notion of the idea of consent being a valid concept- not if the woman in question was submissive.


Dude seems to have issues reconciling the really real world versus fantasy. I think you are right to be suspicious of him.

quote:


Oh, and I should mention, when I said I was bringing this to the boards for the opinions of others, I was told that the folks online are "less genuine" than others, and that it would be a futile attempt at self affirmation on my part.


Smoke screening at its finest. Granted, the interweb is no substitute for, say, the real world. But people are people, and opinions are valid whether they be discussed over coffee, or via an online forum.

quote:


When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault?


It's a simple 7-letter word: consent. Granted, there is a concept of consensual non-consent, but that first hurdle of blanket consent has been overcome. No consent from the get go = assault. Abuse is more difficult to define.

quote:


Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no? 


Uh, duh.  Personally, I think anyone has a right to say no at any time. When no isn't an option, there's safe words. Even in the absence of a safe word, most reputable players are willing to recognize when their bottom is suffering an undue amount of duress that needs to be addressed.

Submissive is not synonymous with doormat.



Bobkgin -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:34:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

Hi...I have a question that stems from a conversation with a dom that is very active in the local scene and claims to be well respected and accepted.  He gave me the following 'advice':  "...be careful who you meet for coffee as if they are a true dom and they like you, you wiull not have a choice about what goes on in your pants by the time you get back to your car - or are you a sub sho never loses or control or submits?"

Now, it's good advice, I know- but this Dom was condoning such behavior on the part of  dominants.  He said that because the men I have met have exercised self restraint they were not 'real' doms.  That of the ~thousands~ of Doms and subs he has met, they have all affirmed that a dom takes what he wants and a REAL sub is submissive to ANY true Dom she meets.  The exact quote was "A sub is a sub". 

I'd love to hear some of the views of other Doms, as when I asked for clarification from the one that made the quote- I was told that he would not indulge me with answers because I was not really submissive.  Could be because I accused him of being a sexual predator that hid behind his title and used his dominant orientation as an excuse to victimize women.  He had no notion of the idea of consent being a valid concept- not if the woman in question was submissive.   That not being submissive to ANY 'real dom" makes a submissive  ambivalent or undecided about who she is.  He literally told me that I was the ~one~ exception to the THOUSANDS of subs he knows. 

Oh, and I should mention, when I said I was bringing this to the boards for the opinions of others, I was told that the folks online are "less genuine" than others, and that it would be a futile attempt at self affirmation on my part.

So, my question is this: When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault?  Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no?  (Just playing devil's advocate)


Ma'am, that's the biggest load of hooey I've heard in, well, several days anyway.

He is treating bdsm as if it were a predator-prey 'relationship'.

I think that's a complete crock.

First, you have every right he does in our society. Ask any policeman or judge and jury.

If he refuses to respect that, and actually does something contrary to those rights, he can explain it to his cell-mates, especially Bubba whose got a younger sister about your age. [;)]

What he is doing is trying to blackmail you.

It works like this:

"Put out for me, or I will tell all my friends you're a fake and you won't get any action in this town again."

Don't let him convince you that anyone worthy of your time and submission would treat you like that. If his 'natural real domliness' requires that he blackmail reluctant women into kinky sex, he isn't so natural, real, or domly.

Don't play games with this guy, because if this plan doesn't work, he might have a Plan B. Just avoid him entirely.



breatheasone -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:34:59 PM)

quote:

So, my question is this: When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault? Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no? (Just playing devil's advocate)

It can only cross that line if the woman says no, and he continues...forces her. if she consents then its not abuse. Absolutely...any woman who identifies as anything can say no.



Bobkgin -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:38:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not quite sure what getting into a woman's pants has to do with dominance though.



A cross-dressing dom, perhaps?



Bobkgin -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:40:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

So, my question is this: When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault? Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no? (Just playing devil's advocate)

It can only cross that line if the woman says no, and he continues...forces her. if she consents then its not abuse. Absolutely...any woman who identifies as anything can say no.



... at -any- point in time.



HeavansKeeper -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:42:37 PM)

There is only one thin thread that runs through all submissives: The desire to serve. Other than that, they are all unique.  Some will be strong willed, only submitting to their owner.  Others may be submissive due to low self esteem, and are willing to do what anyone tells them to do.  His words have merit, I'll give him that, he just derailed a perfectly good train.

The truth is all people think they have self control.  And they do.  Until they're in a situation where the self control is tested.  Mike Tyson once said "Everyone's got a plan until they get hit."  Everyone has self control until their bits-n-pieces are aching for attention, hormones rushing, adrenaline pumping, fantasy meshing into reality...  I can easily see a coffee date turning into a scene.  I'll leave the particulars to you to decide.

My point is, one should be cautious when meeting others.

In regards to submission vs. abuse, there's a big factor at hand.  Logically, to abuse someone, they must have certain rights.  If it is a M/s relationship, to the fullest degree (for lack of a better explanation) the slave has no rights, and thus cannot be abused... or raped by his or her owner.  Most M/s relationships are a bit more.... civil than that. (Civil here being a legal term relating to the rights of others).  I find that most slaves have some rights, usually the right to leave, and the right to say no or stop.  I'm not passing judgment, I'm just being logical. 

So ok, we have those without rights, and those with rights.  Those without rights are never abused.  Those with rights are abused whenever their rights are violated without consent.  Consent here, and in most cases, includes not volunteering a "no."  I know that sounds wierd, but think about if a master had to ask a slave to say "yes, I allow that." to every command.  Fucked up world.

A person with the right of ownership of their body has their limitations in flux.  A woman may not want to have sex with her husband tonight, but will tomorrow.  Most slaves are pretty good about putting their personal desires behind that of their owners, but lets say they aren't.  Or that the dominant in question has not earned the right to have sex with slave whenever he feels.  In either case, saying no is saying no. I hope people never have to deal with that situation, but many will.

Rape is the only topic that turns my blood from red to the The Raging Magma Flows of Hell's Seething Volcanos. (Which is a 2009 expected Crayola color.)  I don't stand for it, and view it to be worse than murder.  At the same time, the mind intrigues me.  More than that, fascinates me.  Particularly the slave's mind on rape.  I know how I define rape, but I don't have the desire to serve.  I don't have the struggle of telling a dominant that I don't want to have sex.  It must be a major clash of interests... Meditate.. on this, I will.



somethndif -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:43:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

Hi...I have a question that stems from a conversation with a dom that is very active in the local scene and claims to be well respected and accepted.  He gave me the following 'advice':  "...be careful who you meet for coffee as
if they are a true dom and they like you, you wiull not have
a choice about what goes on in your pants by the time you get
back to your car - or are you a sub sho never loses or
control or submits?"

                             *  snip  *

So, my question is this: When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault?  Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no?  (Just playing devil's advocate)


The guy -- I won't call him a dominant -- is flat wrong, and probably a jerk.

As for your last question, a submissive or a slave ALWAYS has the right to say no, anywhere, any time.  Period.  Those that think that is not the case are living a fantasy, not reality. 

Dan



wittman40 -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:43:48 PM)

LuckyAlbatross,

Aye but what you are talking about is a case where the sub has said "Yes".... That is qualitatively different to what the OP quoted in which the Dom said "you will not have a choice".... If the two parties agree to whatever's happening then whatever their dynamic or the force or lack of choice during the scene ( I refer here to consensual non-consent ) I wish them nothing but the best of luck but the OP was clear that it was a NO CHOICE situation, which is where I think the issue arises.



wittman40 -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 12:46:36 PM)

somethndiff,

Well, some slaves have given away their right to say no. It is their choice to give that away and some do. Admittedly in the real world they can always retain the right to just run away ( the ultimate expression of "Hell no, you're not doing that to me" ;) but some do operate with a blanket "I can't say no" once they are in a relationship.

I haven't met any who don't reserve the right to say no to people they aren't in a relationship with though.



Slaveless1 -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 1:01:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

Hi...I have a question that stems from a conversation with a dom that is very active in the local scene and claims to be well respected and accepted.  He gave me the following 'advice':  "...be careful who you meet for coffee as
if they are a true dom and they like you, you wiull not have
a choice about what goes on in your pants by the time you get
back to your car - or are you a sub sho never loses or
control or submits?"

Now, it's good advice, I know- but this Dom was condoning such behavior on the part of  dominants.  He said that because the men I have met have exercised self restraint they were not 'real' doms.  That of the ~thousands~ of Doms and subs he has met, they have all affirmed that a dom takes what he wants and a REAL sub is submissive to ANY true Dom she meets.  The exact quote was "A sub is a sub". 

I'd love to hear some of the views of other Doms, as when I asked for clarification from the one that made the quote- I was told that he would not indulge me with answers because I was not really submissive.  Could be because I accused him of being a sexual predator that hid behind his title and used his dominant orientation as an excuse to victimize women.  He had no notion of the idea of consent being a valid concept- not if the woman in question was submissive.   That not being submissive to ANY 'real dom" makes a submissive  ambivalent or undecided about who she is.  He literally told me that I was the ~one~ exception to the THOUSANDS of subs he knows. 

Oh, and I should mention, when I said I was bringing this to the boards for the opinions of others, I was told that the folks online are "less genuine" than others, and that it would be a futile attempt at self affirmation on my part.

So, my question is this: When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault?  Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no?  (Just playing devil's advocate)




IMO this "guy" is no dom either, he is a lousy excuse for a man. Just because one calls herself a sub/slave, does not give this loser a ticket to use what he wants. I do not care if he is part of a group or not, he has no business taking a sub on the first time and use her unless she agrees to this type of treatment.

I know of a few subs who liek to be told what to do and wear the first time you meet them. I have had this experience but only after a long discussion before meeting. Again!!!! she agreed to it..

If she tells him no and he still does what he wants, cannot be construed as nothing more than pure and simple rape. I would turn his ass in.   There are no excused for this type of behaviour wether it be vanilla or BDSM  



sweetNsmartBBW -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 1:10:34 PM)

Thanks folks...and I'm very much in agreement with all of you.  Will keep reading this thread, and I truly appreciate all the responses.   I too agree that consent is the key; but the dom in question seemed to imply that he believed consent was inherent if a woman was submissive.  I told him I'd do no more than meet for coffee at a public place for a first meeting- and he countered with: " (I) met a sweet tender sub once and walked her to her car where I pinned her agains the vehicle and reached in her pants until she came while I held her wrists behind her back - would something like that upset you?"  When I told him that without my consent, it would land him in a world of trouble- he got very defensive. Said the reason he would not clarify things were that I had not sufficiently charmed and enchanted him- and when I pointed out that I was not attmepting to- was again told that was a sign that I was not a real sub.

I have been around long enough that I was not buying into it; which seemed to be really irritating to him- as I was told that it was apparent I'd read plenty about D/s, but obviously had met no real doms- or I'd have encountered this type of behavior before.  (True, I have maybe met a dozen doms over the years compared to his his thousands- and most as friends, not for play- so, I don't claim to be an expert in dominant behavior- but his view of things really was disconcerting).

The funny thing was, after saying what he did and refusing to answer concise questions about it- he still tried to get me to agree to meet with him.  When I said no way, that his attitude concerned me and there was no way I was putting myself into a situation like that- I was told that all I did was concentrate on the negative- and that I'd never know what might have been if I did not agree to meet him.       

Yes, he could have been a decent guy- but he was quite adamant that a submissive should always submit to a real dom; so he and I are definitely not on the same page.  He made it sound like he was a dom guru- citing all the events he's attended; all the people he knows in the lifestyle that validate who he is- because (and I quote) "I am a Dom inasmuch as every other recognized Dom says so and ever true sub experiences it as such";  and then continued to accuse me of not being submissive because I disagreed with him.  



subnstudent -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 1:13:16 PM)

I think what he means is this:

"A true dom will be able to charm you and inspire your desire for him before you get back to your car. In your own mind you won't have a choice, but that is the acknowledgement that you have already made it."

This is no reason not to still be careful, it just means he's got a high Charisma and a smoothe tongue. As I see it, the only way you'll know if you're compatible or not, is how things stick it out in the long run. Things change as time goes on, and sometimes new qualities develop and/or make themselves known. Or even old qualities can suddenly become a problem with time or new developments.

For example I like to pick apart systems and analyze patterns. I like explaining how things work and if something isn't working right I like explaining why it isn't working right if I can figure it out. My dom was having a bad day (or week or whatever) and I tried to tell him why one of his orders wasn't working right, with the best of intentions so that he might change it so that it would be more effective for his intentions. And then he yelled at me in a way I didn't consent to.

The relationship was good up until that point, but that was the start of the night and I was hurt. He was hurt that I wouldn't let down my defense mechanisms and be vulnerable again, and the relationship fell apart.

I offer this with a grain of salt; it's only my experience and by no means is it going to be valid in every situation.

--Edit to add--
Okay with the new information you posted at the same time I was writing mine, my post doesn't really apply in this situation. Sometimes it can, but not with this dom specifically.



slaveish -> RE: When is it submission and when is it sexual abuse? (9/4/2007 1:19:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

He said that because the men I have met have exercised self restraint they were not 'real' doms.  That of the ~thousands~ of Doms and subs he has met, they have all affirmed that a dom takes what he wants and a REAL sub is submissive to ANY true Dom she meets.  The exact quote was "A sub is a sub". 

<snip> I was told that he would not indulge me with answers because I was not really submissive. He had no notion of the idea of consent being a valid concept- not if the woman in question was submissive.   That not being submissive to ANY 'real dom" makes a submissive  ambivalent or undecided about who she is.  He literally told me that I was the ~one~ exception to the THOUSANDS of subs he knows. 

Oh, and I should mention, when I said I was bringing this to the boards for the opinions of others, I was told that the folks online are "less genuine" than others, and that it would be a futile attempt at self affirmation on my part.

So, my question is this: When is it dominance and when does that cross the line and become abuse/assault?  Do you think a sub female that is NOT in a relationship with you has the right to say no?  (Just playing devil's advocate)



First, what a dipshit. Second, what a blowhard. Third, what a liar.

To answer your questions, it becomes abuse when she indicates "no." A sub female ALWAYS has the right to say no, regardless if she is in a relationship with anyone.

Send this jerkoff my way. I'm feeling kinda fiery and in the mood for a good ... um ... debate.



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