RE: Spirituality and BDSM (Full Version)

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chellekitty -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 9:38:23 PM)

quote:


The Dalai Lama?

I believe his is the longest-running government-in-exile.

His people occupied and oppressed. His land exploited for the benefit of China.

And no world power will change it.

Seems to fit the bill of being both "religious" and "hell".



the Dalai Lama is Buddhist...it is not a religion in that it does not have any sort of divinity...it is based merely on the teachings of a person who has reached the ultimate understanding of life and the universe...




chellekitty -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/6/2007 9:41:29 PM)

i didn't identify myself as a christian until about 6 or 7 months ago...and God made me who i am, why would i be punished for fufilling the needs he gave me?




BDsbabygirl -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/7/2007 5:21:19 AM)

defiantbadgirl, when I ponder it, I do feel guilty for having sexual relations with my Dom, whom I'm not only unmarried to, but also cheating on my 'legal' husband with (will be divorced once money comes thru)...but apparently not guilty enough to stop. Nor will I stop. I'll just await the day we will marry so then it will be 'legal', in both the Court's and God's eyes...




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/7/2007 5:25:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:


The Dalai Lama?

I believe his is the longest-running government-in-exile.

His people occupied and oppressed. His land exploited for the benefit of China.

And no world power will change it.

Seems to fit the bill of being both "religious" and "hell".



the Dalai Lama is Buddhist...it is not a religion in that it does not have any sort of divinity...it is based merely on the teachings of a person who has reached the ultimate understanding of life and the universe...



... and continues to be reborn until all of humanity achieves Buddhahood.

"A religion is a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.
"In the frame of (patriarchal) European religious thought,[1] religions present a common quality, the "hallmark of patriarchal religious thought": the division of the world in two comprehensive domains, one sacred, the other profane.[2] Religion is often described as a communal system for the coherence of belief focusing on a system of thought, unseen being, person, or object, that is considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine, or of the highest truth. Moral codes, practices, values, institutions, tradition, rituals, and scriptures are often traditionally associated with the core belief, and these may have some overlap with concepts in secular philosophy. Religion is also often described as a "way of life"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion


You might also consult the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definition_of_religion




Aswad -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/7/2007 5:34:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom

I believe it was similar sentiments [...]


Not a similar sentiment, but something that comes from a similar place.

Consider for a moment the state. It is a noncorporeal entity, to which people sacrifice a substantial portion of their earthly goods. They turn to it for help, protection, and such. People abide by its tenets and laws (sometimes only when they think someone might be looking, much as with religions), and take pride in being one of its people. They use its priests (beurocrats and politicians) to address this entity, and rely on its messengers and angels (law enforcement, armed forces, firefighters, health care, etc.).

And, in the end, they are proud and willing to fight and die for this "god" of theirs.

Most humans have a need for authority in their lives; others have a need for spirituality. I think both are valid ways to be human, but they have different roles. The problem arises when those who are supposed to be shepherds, instead become wolves, and prey upon the flock, turning them to "evil" ends. It is no accident that sheep are a prominent biblical symbol, and that analogy means exactly the same as it does in modern society.

quote:


Good luck with your revalation. It certainly seems like it will be interesting and worthwhile once you have formalized and internalized it. The religious exstacy and middle ground between religion and humanism you speak of certainly seems elusive through the course of history.


It has indeed been elusive. Most religions are either for the spiritual person, or for the sheeple. Paul turned a religion that bridged this gap into a religion for the sheeple. I've turned it around, into what I believe to be closer to the original intent: a religion for both sheeple and spiritual people, which values both, and fullfils the needs of both.

What remains to be done is no less than a reinterpretation of every text pertaining to the Abrahamic traditions, in light of this revelation, excising some texts in their entirety, while retaining a few unchanged, and adding commentary and/or redactions to the rest. This includes the apocryphal texts, such as the Gnostic gospels. Going to take some time, needless to say. And there is the matter of integrating advances that the modern era has provided us with, including how cognitive sciences provide us with better ways to fill certain social functions, and the fact that a certain flavour of BDSM can- done in the right manner- provide a framework for offering each person their own path to the extent of spiritual experience they are able to grasp, along with meeting very commonly neglected human needs that have not been met since our "primitive" days.

Internalization is a minor work, in comparison, and will come with living the path. What remains to be done, apart from those two things, is to establish a new Covenant with G*d, as I have come to see the old Covenants as having been broken on our side, or at the very least not appropriate as a foundation. How to do that, is an intriguing question, especially for one who admits the possibility of miracles, and thus the possibility that the mythology surrounding the establishment of the old Covenants may be more literal than commonly held. I'm not holding my breath on any burning bushes, however. [;)]

Note, by the way, that I am not equating submissives and slaves with sheeple. Rather, I am saying that these two axes exist independently of each other, and that this religion must meet the human and spiritual needs of all configurations along both axes, in a naturalist and spiritualist synthesis of what I hope constitutes an enlightened approach.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/7/2007 5:37:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

i didn't identify myself as a christian until about 6 or 7 months ago...and God made me who i am, why would i be punished for fufilling the needs he gave me?


Would you tell us which "needs" you had at birth?

The need for kink?

The need for unmarried partners?

It is unclear which of the things Defiant mentioned that you consider God-given "needs".




chellekitty -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/7/2007 11:48:15 AM)

any of those i cannot go without...therefore defining them as a need not a want...Bob, honey...you're bordering on agressive in your questioning of me...calm down...




e01n -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/7/2007 1:03:06 PM)

I've been asked to explain Thelema in some emails. Seems that my commentary left some a bit baffled. Rather than go into the history and theory and jargon... I offer this explanation of how it is applied by another who stated it in words that are quite blunt and simple (and easy to translate into other languages)...

"the law of
the strong:
this is our law
and the joy
of the world." AL. II. 2

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." --AL. I. 40

"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." --AL. I. 42-3

"Every man and every woman is a star." --AL. I. 3

There is no god but man.

  1. Man has the right to live by his own law--
    to live in the way that he wills to do:
    to work as he will:
    to play as he will:
    to rest as he will:
    to die when and how he will.
  2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
    to drink what he will:
    to dwell where he will:
    to move as he will on the face of the earth.
  3. Man has the right to think what he will:
    to speak what he will:
    to write what he will:
    to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
    to dress as he will.
  4. Man has the right to love as he will:--
    "take your fill and will of love as ye will,
    when, where, and with whom ye will." --AL. I. 51
  5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.
    "the slaves shall serve." --AL. II. 58


"Love is the law, love under will." --AL. I. 57

Copyright © O.T.O.

Personally, I disagree with Thelemic culture on the whole and the Caliphate OTO & EGC especially - yet I see Thelema as a useful framework for living. Like others, I've explored a number of beliefs and finally found one that Makes Sense to me. Ironically, it was going back to the way I was brought up...




e01n -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/8/2007 10:11:08 AM)

What? No one wants to touch my spirituality in the same way everyone else's has been?

Come on! Feel my spirituality! Feel it! Touch it! Liebe mein arsemonkee!

I guess this means that now is the time on this thread where we dance!




chellekitty -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/8/2007 10:55:59 AM)

i would touch your spirituality e01n, but i seem to have misplaced my shoulder length calfing gloves and there's not enough disinfectant around.... [:D]




MasterFireMaam -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/9/2007 2:39:46 AM)

Being a Master is my spiritual calling. BDSM is a tool my tribe uses to create ritual, both maintanence and radical.

Master Fire




SusanofO -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/9/2007 5:01:22 AM)

I have to say in anything other than a "role-play" sense to be slightly weird (equating a Master with a god, but not for real - if any Dominant or master of mine wanted it to be for real, then I'd leave, because I'd consider that to be sacriligeous) - but to each their own.

I find no connection whatsoever between these two parts of my life.

I do (occasionaly) attend church, and consider myself to be spiritually aware (within my own standards for that) - I just don't see any connection this has to my sex life or any D/s or BDSM in my life.

- Susan




blmtrsne -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/13/2007 2:50:33 AM)

I don't believe, I'm an atheist.
This means I put the human being in the center, as my species. A species who was afraid from a lot and invented gods to protect him.
- I love sceince as a way to understand how everything works. Some say: you believe in science than. But the basics of science is that you question every fact, and that you ca,n only say you found rules that are valid in a certain defined environment. So, rules that apply in every days life (gravity) don't work anymore on a very small level.
- An other aspect is social scills: I don't need a god to know right from wrong. I have to think about it and am responsable for my way of living. So for me, the live or the missery from one human being on this planet is as important as another ones.

blmtrsne




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/13/2007 5:28:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blmtrsne

I don't need a god to know right from wrong. I have to think about it and am responsable for my way of living.



I assume you were taught morality as a child.

As were your parents.

And their parents.

What was the source for the morality they and you were taught?

Thou shalt not kill? Thou shalt not steal? Treat others the way you want to be treated?

It has been my experience that atheists borrow large chunks of their morality from religious sources.

If that was not the case for you, from whence came the morality you learned as a child.




blmtrsne -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/15/2007 9:32:49 AM)

I won't deney a lot of my education and experiences come from a catalic background, although my father and his parents were atheists as well. Did you know scientists found a religeos gene? That opens a philosophical question: do I have to be cured or am I the normal one? Is having this gene a remainder from ancient times and are the others the future or do you lose something essential not having it?
But we all experience the effects from our culture in schools, the ebvironment, other people we meet. I learned to think about things, and not to accept it because it's written in some book, or worse because someone says it out of an authority which comes from an institute or from the clothes he wears.

So, lets see:

Thou shalt not kill? --> Ok, I tend to believe people deserve a chance (as other species deserve). Did you know that humanity almost disappeared and was reduced to a few hundreds? So go back in time and you'll have common roots with anyone. We would be killing our family.

Thou shalt not steal?
I think taking something from someone else is an act of weakness, because you get it in a normal way. If you take it away something, your often taking away a memory to. But if you steal because you have not eaten in a week, you might need help from others... And taking something away by force means you can't get it in a normal way. Like losing a discussion and shouting "because I said so". That's stealing a victory to me, and in the long run a well thought decision will prove the right one. To come to the right decision it's good to know everyones thoughts about a problem. That's were the openness comes in. I only hope the other one is willing to listen to my thoughts as well. I'll respect his decision as long as he doesn't interfere wityh mine as well.

Treat others the way you want to be treated?
Of course you could do without this rule, but I can't throw this rule away because I believe people are normally positive, but get influenced by their environment. So, I'm known to be hard to discuss with: I'll sit next to you, not in front. I'll try to find common ground and then see what the difference is. Mostly you can part saying I understand what you want, I want something else but we can get through a door together. (In our country: go out and drink a few pints).

What about: You shan't desire your neighbours wife (something like that, I don't know these things by heart). My husband told me he fell in love with other ladies during our mariage a few times: instant electricity between two people. But living in the society where we live in, he always recognized it to be a chemical and natural reaction, where  you don't have to take it further. So he told them he loved them too but didn't want anything more because it's to expencive to live together with more than one or to divorse one to go living with another. That's complicating live. We even have friends of whom the lady and my man know they fancy each other and with whom we'll have a drink regulary. There's some hugging and a welcome kiss, but that is as far as it goes. It's wonderfull if you can live it without all kinds of guild-feeling: theres nothing wrong here, and everybody is happy. If you think something wrong of it, that's your dirty mind speaking.

Did I mention he introduced me to all his girlfriends as his friend while he went out with them before we married? Much easier than meating them by accident and getting suspicions. He always was open about it and has more (real, long lasting) girlfriends than friends. He's not gay, so, kind of normal he get's to know girls first, no? Kind of funny when one of his cooperaters from his job asked me about all these other girls because he didn't understand the situation: he was cheating on his wife.

I don't throw away our culture, but I do contest the absolute authority from churches or moral groups. And some "rules" prove to be ironic with all those priest doing nasty things. I don't play the game, so I don't want to comment on the catalic church, so if they don't want their priests to be female it's their choice. It should be discussed between catolics.
But when it touches the society, there should be a common attitude (medical questions, acting in public, riding a car, drugs...), determined by reason, good common sence. Not tradition or a few books. And in fact I don't believe this is a great problem. I'm not really busy with those things: we've got things tos olve: environment, the influence from large powerfull companys, etc... Sometimes I wonder who is the real authority: large companys or the people?





Aswad -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/15/2007 12:37:48 PM)

Your arguments are falling short, blmtrsne, though the conclusion- that religion is not necessary for morality- is sound.

The population bottleneck theory is disputed in the scientific community, and still does not provide any reason why it would be wrong to kill your family. Stealing requires recognition of property, a difficult philosophical problem. Reciprocity is a fair enough approach, but to assume that people are intrinsically "positive" (in itself a value judgment) is a flawed proposition, as demonstrated in nature, as well as a lot of different cultures around the world.

In short, the only thing reason provides us with, is a tool like any other, and hopefully an understanding of moral relativism.

Like a gun, what matters is how you use it, and reason doesn't provide any reasons not to use it however you want.

Health,
al-Aswad.




e01n -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/15/2007 8:24:22 PM)

Ignoring Proudhon for a while, it's feasible to say that it's possible to define ownership (and thus property) simply by using the first person possessive - "Mine!" As such, the taking something that's someone else's is pretty clear. The ethics not so much, nor is the morality either.

I notice that no one has still commented on my posting at all, much less the linking of authorization of deadly force and "the slaves shall serve." Interesting, that... Could it be that as I call us all out on being animals, no one is willing to admit their agreement with my position?

So, let's talk about the ultimate "possession" that can be taken: life...




MistressLikeToys -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/15/2007 8:37:58 PM)

I have sat here and read most of this post and it has been fasinating.  It is so informative to see others positions on such things, and to see the diversity from one person to the next. 

Great reading, thank you OP.




pearlmoongirl -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/15/2007 8:58:49 PM)

If someone asks, I identify my spiritual path as 'pagan,' although that's a pretty broad term.

There is some intersection between my submissiveness and my pagan beliefs. I believe in the balance between Goddess and Consort. One cannot exist or play her/his part without the other; both are essential and sacred. I hope to find a Dom who sees me and values my submission in just that way, that We need each other for balance and wholeness.

If He happens to be some flavor of pagan Himself, hurray! But it's not a dealbreaker. [:)]
~pmg





blmtrsne -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/16/2007 9:17:47 AM)

Ok, thanks for the info, and your arguments are sound. I only wanted to let others feel the catolic dogmas are not mine.

So when I meet people, I assume them to be friendly. We have a lot of discussions here in Belgium stating "We have to send those strangers back from where they came from". The same people say that the stranger living in their street is a good one and needs to be accepted in the society.

I'm not naive, some of us are not friendly.  But I prefer to put flowers in my garden instead of arming myself. And I agree once again: I do have friends who own a gun and most of them are responsable with it. But I also went on holliday where a hunter left his weapons hanging on the wall for all kids to reach.

Let's use our tools to make a better world for everyone. I prefer to reason with someone than to use a gun to increase my arguments. Because with reason you can make someone understand your position. Nice to have some protection when someone does not want to reason of course.

blmtrsne




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