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RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/16/2007 9:31:03 AM

blmtrsne

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/29/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: e01n

...
I notice that no one has still commented on my posting at all, much less the linking of authorization of deadly force and "the slaves shall serve." Interesting, that... Could it be that as I call us all out on being animals, no one is willing to admit their agreement with my position?

So, let's talk about the ultimate "possession" that can be taken: life...

Just to help you out :
You're right, we're animals. but with a tiny difference: our brains. So where for animals they take what they need and do it in a natural way, we learned how to implement maximum damage and to stock our food in a fridge. So we develop a culture that makes us live together in such a way that we don't kill each other. Otherwise we couldn't go to sleep knowing all those facts from the world... bloody brain.

If you see life as a possession ( I saw the brackets ) than I think nature has a joke imposed on us: intelligence was nice to help us survive, so it grew to what we have now. But then we started thinking we are wearth something.... I don't know about that. I try to have a pleasant life and, like all animals 'care' about my species. In our way of life that means caring for my family. Some spies fuck like rabbits to have enough offspring, we protect ours. So nature doesn't care about a life. We do.

blmtrsne

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RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/16/2007 10:08:13 AM

e01n

Posts: 1472
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Right, which is why in the context of what I'm offering as "application description," provisions are made for what happens when transgressions occur... that the deprivation of another's rights against their will is a death sentence. And equally, you cannot exercise rights that you deny others.

The irony is not lost on me, either. I don't live by OZ as a set of rules, but more a set of guidelines for my personal choices...

As to the comment request, it's a pretty pointed one: someone has made a point of commenting on just about everyone's beliefs - yet skipped mine. I'm curious as to why he chose to do that...

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RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/16/2007 10:16:35 AM

nephandi

Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Hi

i think what is said about sex in the bible is not said to indicate one should not enjoy sex, or that one should not enjoy alternative sex, for as you said, the Devine gave us the desires we have, i think what is said is a warning against A braking up homes and destroying love for sex. aka do not try to brake pepole up and respect other's relationships. And B not to get so hooked up on sex we forget everything else. i think what is said is that sex is quite ok when done whit compassion, sense and whit some moderation.

i wish you well

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Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

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RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/18/2007 4:01:19 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: e01n

Ignoring Proudhon for a while, it's feasible to say that it's possible to define ownership (and thus property) simply by using the first person possessive - "Mine!"

You should recognize that the possessive implies a claim, not an entitlement or a modern concept of property. It implies that you are staking a claim to something, and that you will defend that claim by whatever means necessary, or at least whatever means it is worth to you to keep what you are claiming. Note also that the possessive is merely a variation of the genitive, making it another way of saying "of me".

When we say "my wife" or "my husband", we are not implying slavery (the possession of another human being as property), but indicating- as the genitive does- a relation. It is a noun case that is used to indicate a relationship between two nouns, and one of the tools of language that allows us to navigate the hierarchy from the specific to the general, from the concrete to the abstract, and from the thing to its properties and qualities.

An understanding of the linguistics and history goes a long way toward analyzing this.

quote:

As such, the taking something that's someone else's is pretty clear.

Yes. It is contesting a claim. Just like trying to kill someone is. Or calling them a liar.

It's not stealing their property; that is merely a legal construct.

quote:

The ethics not so much, nor is the morality either.

Clearly. It's a difficult problem to reason about in the general. Ethics are axiomatic, and religion is just one of many sources of axioms. Realizing that the axioms are entirely arbitrary, and that reason and science does not provide any more solid philosophical grounds than any other approach, is rather critical to understanding the nature of ethics, and how reason and science are invaluable tools, but no more than tools.

Obviously, a different position for religion can not be established. It's a choice, like anything.

quote:

I notice that no one has still commented on my posting at all, much less the linking of authorization of deadly force and "the slaves shall serve." Interesting, that... Could it be that as I call us all out on being animals, no one is willing to admit their agreement with my position?

I saw no reason to make a "me too!" post on that count.

Thelema has many elements that could be seen as Will to Power in a different wrapping.

quote:

So, let's talk about the ultimate "possession" that can be taken: life...

The penultimate, I would say.

But, in any case, it is an "of me", not a possession.

One can always try, and many do. Some contest the attempt. Some don't.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/18/2007 4:15:57 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blmtrsne

I only wanted to let others feel the catolic dogmas are not mine.

Nor are they mine. I have what some might call a "radical interpretation of the text."

Of course, I believe mine to be the correct one, but I'm not going to go ballistic over it.

quote:

So when I meet people, I assume them to be friendly.

Which derives from social conditioning, which derives from culture, which derives from cultural heritage, which derives from religious doctrine, which (depending on who you ask) derives either from divine inspiration or from one or more people's opinions that have been wrapped for the masses. In any case, your assumption only holds insofar as you are dealing with people who have internalized the same conditioning you have.

I have found a lot of people not to be friendly, so I try not to assume anything.

quote:

We have a lot of discussions here in Belgium stating "We have to send those strangers back from where they came from". The same people say that the stranger living in their street is a good one and needs to be accepted in the society.

Human nature, and an expression of Othering, the root of much "evil."

Rational formation of tribes based on merit and congruence of ideals counteracts this problem, and takes it to a natural level, wherein conflicts arise over disputed claims and resource starvation, rather than over dogma, skin color, gender, religion, and so forth. That is, however, contrary to the present doctrine of the modern nation state, so it will be unlikely to be realized any time soon, unless embraced at a local level.

quote:

I'm not naive, some of us are not friendly. But I prefer to put flowers in my garden instead of arming myself.

I prefer to do both. I study hard the violent means at my disposal, hoping I won't have to use them. Again. I also respect, admire and cultivate the beauty of nature, life and the nobility of human spirit, much as some Objectivists do, but with a naturalistic angle that is informed by an understanding of evolutionary psychology and a fundamental respect for the order of nature. Shit happens, we deal, we go back to beauty.

quote:

And I agree once again: I do have friends who own a gun and most of them are responsable with it. But I also went on holliday where a hunter left his weapons hanging on the wall for all kids to reach.

A lot of people are irresponsible, but most who own a gun have profound respect for it. The purpose of the constitutional right to bear arms in the US (where I do not live) is, in my opinion, simply that a person who would decide how others would be governed, is a person who should understand the value of life. Anyone who would reach for a gun with no comprehension of the damage it can do, or the value of life, is a moron.

I'd probably just have made off with the guns, and dumped them in a river somewhere. Let him explain to the cops how his guns were stolen because he didn't store them as the law indicates he should (if it doesn't, it's time for you to campaign for it to do so). Most likely, he would quietly neglect to report them stolen. If he did report it, he'd most likely lose his licence, at least around these parts. YMMV.

Either that, or called the police, depending on whether they'd deal adequately with it.

Making off with the firing pin would work if it's removable.

quote:

Let's use our tools to make a better world for everyone.

Certainly.

quote:

I prefer to reason with someone than to use a gun to increase my arguments.

A gun doesn't bolster the argument. It merely quells timid opposition.

quote:

Because with reason you can make someone understand your position.

Sometimes, but not always. Remember that it comes down to arbitrary axioms.

It is the preferred approach, though, I agree.

quote:

Nice to have some protection when someone does not want to reason of course.

Of course.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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