Spirituality and BDSM (Full Version)

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Bobkgin -> Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 4:06:21 PM)

Those of you who have been following Winsome's "safe, SANE & Consensual " thread will be aware that some of us took it for a little ride into spirituality/religion.

I'd like to thank Winsome for not taking us behind the woodshed and thrashing us within an inch of our lives (we deserved it, and Charlotte being the lady she is, has graciously declined the offer).

The topic for this thread is how does your spiritual/religious beliefs feed into BDSM, and how does BDSM further your spiritual/religious growth.

Or do you find there is no connection at all?

I realize this will appear skewed against Atheism. Atheists are welcome to join in, but I hope all will participate with some modicum of respect for the fact that some of us have a personal belief system, some of us do not.

I do not want this turning into the perennial debate over whether faith is justified or not. I'm willing to stipulate for the sake of this discussion that all belief systems and non-belief systems are valid for those who hold them, and need not be held by others to remain valid. This isn't about who is right. This is about how BDSM has influenced -your- beliefs/non-beliefs. As such there is no right or wrong answer.

While I've devoted some time to discussing my beliefs in a variety of threads, I'll hold off here for a while to give everyone a chance to contribute their thoughts on the issue.




Celeste43 -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 4:12:29 PM)

No relationship at all. But Judaism is a religion focused on the family and the community. My sex life is private.




psynymph -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 4:22:39 PM)

Atheism is still a belief.... a belief in well nothing but gods damnit, they firmly believe in that nothing!

As far as a connection of religion/spirituality to the lifestyle? um well... as with most debates it will all boil down to personal opinions.

it makes perfect sense that if you are religious or spiritual, that naturally it would integrate into the lifestyle because well... it is your lifestyle.

i am not religious in the slightest, nor really all that spiritual so i'm not too sure on how being in the bdsm lifestyle could further growth in religion or personal spirituality. But i do believe that religion and spirituality could definitely help an individual to grow in the lifestyle, their lifestyle.

erm yup, my two cents. *grins*




Aswad -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 4:27:17 PM)

Quoting a previous post I made on this topic:



For me, as a follower of a personal path derived from Abrahamic religion, Shinto, pre-Meiji era Bushido, Gnostic and Zoroastric beliefs, it is my belief that free will is the ultimate gift we have been given. In this sense, there is no higher gesture than to subordinate one's own will to that of another, and no greater support than aligning one's own will with that of another. Submission and slavery both become sacred institutions, the unequivocal relationship becomes something divine, and the acts that reaffirm this subordination are sacraments in their own right.

Without dragging a lot of quotes into the matter, it is also possible to introduce a proxy element, but I am not comfortable with that for some reason, at least not beyond the point made that "by serving your master, you are serving me". Of course, in a Gnostic sense, one can take it as a matter of freeing the spirit by enslaving the flesh, but that isn't quite in line with my thinking at the moment.

The trappings can also be put in a context of this sort, with the mortification of the flesh coming to mind as an example.

In any case, I also wrote something on the analogy to animism and related nature religions.

I will repeat it here, with minimal redaction:

We are the Shamans.

The ones who, by those means we choose, delve into things others dare not.
The ones who embrace the ecstacies one can lose oneself in yet still retain control.
The ones who touch our primal side to bring forth experiences that transcend the mundane.

And we come out unscathed, indeed born anew, each time we stride deeper into the unknown halls of our minds.


There's a lot to be said about this topic, and it seems sad to leave it at this, but I'm afraid there are too many thoughts to gather and form into a coherent post on the subject for me, so I've confined myself to scratching the surface, although I'm happy to address specific subtopics. And I hope others will continue to add more about their own views. It's one of the most interesting elements for me, at least.



Since that time, I've had an epiphany (some might say a revelation) that has taken me off on a radical tangent to my former views, which will hopefully condense in a manner that may be useful to others, although it may be unpalatable to conservative Abrahamic religions, as it derives from that tradition under a very different interpretation.





domiguy -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 4:40:30 PM)

I am an incredibly devout man...A simple man...A fisher of men's lost souls.

Although I was sent a sign straight from Christ out on these forums ( I don't know if you recall the message...But Christ wrote "ass" in some dudes hair...It was the moment that I turned my life over to Christ)...I am now a prophet, a shining white knight, a lesser God...But Godesque nonetheless....Come unto me my little subbies....And feast upon my words and cum.

There is not much about bdsm that touches on religion...However God despises dommes...And absolutely loathes Pro Dommes...As he clearly states below......

Exodus 20:17
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 4:44:27 PM)

My spiritual practices do not feed into BDSM per se.  BDSM is one dimension of my life; my spiritual practices are to my mind the unifying thread that ties all these dimensions into a single coherent "Me".

As an occasional/accidental Buddhist, however, I have observed that contemplating Karmic Law as well as the prinicples of Interdependent Co-Origination opens my eyes to new potentials and possibilities for dominating my slave, while her reactions and responses provide continued illumination of the same phenomena. 






SwitchySwitch -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 4:51:20 PM)

I’m not religious; through I have studied it a lot. I know theory, different systems ect. So I have my on philosophical-ethical system which comes from modern Jewish religious though that I follow.

This has influenced how I feel about people in my life, which is not to discount that they are a person, and to respect them for they are an “Other.”  Which means the emotional-sadist in me, has a unique way of handling that humiliation and objectification play. I also try to keep in mind their needs, wants and desires at all times.

But it really just comes down to my feelings of right and wrong.




Twicehappy2x -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 5:02:51 PM)

BDSM in no way affects my spirituality. I am druid, devoted to the natural, to the spirit in all things, to knowledge.




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 5:33:23 PM)

BDSM does not effect my spirituality, but rather the other way around.  My spiritual beliefs direct how I approach BDSM, and most any other interaction-relationship with others.



"Don't try to use what you learn from Buddhism to be a Buddhist;
use it to be a better whatever-you-already-are.
"
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama

 
While I am not a Buddhist, per se, there are many truths in Buddhism, as there are in many other religions.  Whatever truth resonates within my spirit, I try to apply to life choices, actions, reactions and thoughts.  In this way, my spirituality; my ethics; my morals; my credes; become the cornerstone upon which I build relationships with people.  I am not always successful at applying my spirituality to my actions, but that too is a path of learning. 




e01n -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 5:33:50 PM)

The one part of my spirituality that applies to BDSM can be explained by 3 principles:
  1. Thelema applies to all men and women. When you accept it, you lay claim to these rights as your own; but you also acknowledge that they belong to every other man and woman as well, not just you, not just Thelemites. "Every man and every woman is a star." Thus, in accepting the Law, I agree not to infringe upon the rights of others (although I am not necessarily bound to cooperate with every person's exercise of these rights). Crowley states in Chapter 49 of Magick Without Tears that "to violate the rights of another is to forfeit one's own claim to protection in the matter involved." If you deny the rights of another, you have denied the very existence of those rights; and they are lost to you. You cannot possess a right which you deny to others. Also, while one may possess the right to "to love as he will," it may not be the will of the object of that love to participate. Thelema does not justify rape.

  2. Thelema makes no guarantees.
    • Thelema does not grant us the power or the ability to exercise any of the rights it implies. A man may have the right "to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will," but it will not buy him the art supplies, or grant him talent if he lacks it. He may, indeed, have the right "to drink what he will," but it does not give him the ability to safely drive a car, operate machinery, or perform ritual while drunk.
    • It does not provide shelter from the consequences and repercussions of the exercise of our natural rights. A man's right to "to rest as he will," does not safeguard him against losing his livelihood; his right "to eat what he will" does not immunize him against poisoning or obesity; his right to "speak what he will" does not shelter him from criticism, ridicule, lawsuit, or the loss of friendship; his right "to love as he will" does not exempt him from paternity; and his right "to kill those who would thwart these rights" does not protect him from retribution, imprisonment, or execution.
    • It provides no assurance that the exercise of any natural right will result in success, happiness, fulfillment, satisfaction, or any other "positive" outcome.


  3. It does not free us from our obligations. It does not justify lying, or failure to live up to our promises, agreements and responsibilities.


Then again, this are merely my personal opinions on my personal beliefs.




IrishMist -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 5:35:07 PM)

My spiritual beliefs do not 'feed' into BDSM at all. Of course, since I don't partake of BDSM activities, that may be why




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 5:37:08 PM)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_759471/mpage_2/key_religion/tm.htm#761510
bdsm and christianity to me

http://www.collarchat.com/m_651144/mpage_1/key_christian/tm.htm#651149
"Christian" bdsm?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_101393/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#101393
bdsm lifestyle vs christianity/religion

http://www.collarchat.com/m_112713/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#112713
bdsm spirituality???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_114995/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#114995
Christianity and ds bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_154410/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#154410
a sacred take on bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_168844/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#168844
bdsm and religion

http://www.collarchat.com/m_176205/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#176205
sensuality & religion = what?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_193896/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#193896
religion and bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_275551/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#275551
christians everywhere!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_323932/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#323932
no...not the spiritual trip

http://www.collarchat.com/m_299050/mpage_1/key_faith%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#299050
power and spirit

http://www.collarchat.com/m_133611/mpage_1/key_spirituality%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#133611
bdsm and spirituality?




goalie62 -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 5:43:37 PM)

Not that I have noticed, but until I read this thread, I never really contemplated it before.  I'll get back to you after I think about it.




LivingInSin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 5:45:16 PM)

Im Pagan and a follower of Morrigan.......

"Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are My rituals."
Charge of the Goddess
 
My Lady is at times cruel and brutal, she can be loving and tender at times as well.

There are times when I like to be bound and whipped or flogged until blood flows. The fact that I derive pleasure from it, is an offering to Her. As well as my blood.

I think BDSM has helped me learn my path and define it a tad clearer. I dont think I would have such a solid grounding in either my faith or my lifestyle if not for the other. To me they feed off of each other.....a never ending circle.
 
 




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 6:11:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Since that time, I've had an epiphany (some might say a revelation) that has taken me off on a radical tangent to my former views, which will hopefully condense in a manner that may be useful to others, although it may be unpalatable to conservative Abrahamic religions, as it derives from that tradition under a very different interpretation.



A lot of meat on those 'bare bones'. [:)]

If you are willing, I hope you'll illuminate the above quote.




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 6:17:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwitchySwitch

This has influenced how I feel about people in my life, which is not to discount that they are a person, and to respect them for they are an “Other.”  Which means the emotional-sadist in me, has a unique way of handling that humiliation and objectification play.



Would you be so kind as to expand on that "unique way" you've mentioned above?




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 6:19:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

While I am not a Buddhist, per se, there are many truths in Buddhism, as there are in many other religions.  Whatever truth resonates within my spirit, I try to apply to life choices, actions, reactions and thoughts.  In this way, my spirituality; my ethics; my morals; my credes; become the cornerstone upon which I build relationships with people.  I am not always successful at applying my spirituality to my actions, but that too is a path of learning. 



Winsome, I believe I've seen you mention "other religions" before, but have only mentioned Buddhism specifically.

Can you tell us what you've gained from these "other religions" that has contributed to your cornerstone?




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 6:22:21 PM)

Thank you, Lucky, for taking the time and trouble to compile a list of related links.

It's always useful to see what was discussed in the past.




Stephann -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 6:23:38 PM)

I'll keep this short.

I believe most religions to be a valid means of communing with God (or the creator, or supreme being, or whatever.)  I don't think God cares what name we call him, just as a father with three children from different countries wouldn't care what language they use to show him respect.  I think belief in God does more good for the believers than it does for that God, to boot; but that's another story.

I personally believe that God wants us to enjoy our lives.  That it is our passion, experiences, and lives that we were meant to enjoy.  I think the fully lived life is what God wishes for us to engage in; and BDSM can certainly be a means of enjoying passion.  I don't think it's any more, or less, intense than many other activities; thus I don't find BDSM as a better (or worse) means of communing with God.

Stephan




Bobkgin -> RE: Spirituality and BDSM (9/5/2007 6:26:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LivingInSin

Im Pagan and a follower of Morrigan.......

...

I think BDSM has helped me learn my path and define it a tad clearer. I dont think I would have such a solid grounding in either my faith or my lifestyle if not for the other. To me they feed off of each other.....a never ending circle. 
  



I'm not familiar with Morrigan. While Wikipedia can provide some answers, I am interested in hearing how you see Morrigan/BDSM influencing each other so intimately in your life.




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