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Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 7:24:23 PM   
homedespot


Posts: 79
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		Part 1:
I have seen many discussion and spoken to many people about the topic of the Dominant loving the slave/submissive. I know people who think that loving a slave is a good thing but being IN love is a bad thing. I know Dominants who can't imagine not loving their slaves...okay keep that in mind for part two...

Part 2:
I know the definition of submissive and slave have been debated endlessly here. For the pupose of this question I would like to use the following definition of a slave and submissive. I realize that it might not match yours...but it is my question *grins*. For this question the difference between a slave and submissive are as follows:

a) A slave has two choices to obey or to go, whereas a submissive has many choices and the ability to engage in ongoing negotiations.
b) A slave is always a slave it isn't something they can be out of. They may have to operate in the "real" world but they are slaves first. They are slaves who pretend to be men if you will. No I am not saying they are weak and useless. Submissives are "people" (for lack of a better word) first and can pick and choose when and where to become something else.
c) A slave puts his Mistress first always. Mistress's happiness is the most important aspect of the relationship. A submissive is comfortable and confident in exerting their own desires not just in conjuction with but over the other person. A slave gets pleasure from the serving of the other person. A submissive wants more reciprocation.

The question: Using the definition of slave as above...can you be a slave to a Mistress without loving her. Without being, in fact, IN love with her. Is that a needed component? I believe you can be a submissive without loving or being in love with your Mistress. I believe you can be a Mistress/Owner without being IN love with your slave. I believe that those aren't "rules" but CAN happen...but I'm curious about the other.

Please note. Firstly: These are my definations. I know that. Secondly: I'm not judging those that fall into either category. I'm just curious!
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 7:44:08 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		What's love got to do with it????? 
 
Sir's... this girl would rather have his control and dominance and a man of integrity rather than the L word.

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to homedespot)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 7:46:28 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		What are the positive incentives for such a business like arrangement?

(in reply to homedespot)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 8:42:09 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		If the relationship is based on love, at least partly, then it needs to exist in order for the relationship to thrive.

If the relationship is not based on love, then it tends to be a personal choice.

This has nothing to do with whether a person is a slave or not or what service they provide.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_651231/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#651253
What's love got to do with it?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_632033/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#632105
Loving your property

http://www.collarchat.com/m_609494/mpage_2/key_love/tm.htm#609934
Ownership and Love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_545462/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#545482
What does love got to do with it?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_538921/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#538965
The Loving Dom

http://www.collarchat.com/m_499831/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#499881
Don't fall in love with your dom

http://www.collarchat.com/m_477568/mpage_3/key_love/tm.htm#484997
How common is it to fall in love with a submissive or dominant?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=423736&mpage=1&key=love&#423879
Love and Ms

http://www.collarchat.com/m_282567/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#282615
submissive/slave romantic love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_269031/mpage_1/key_love%252Csubmission/tm.htm#269120
Falling in love with Mistress

http://www.collarchat.com/m_248492/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#248492
true love in a relationship

http://www.collarchat.com/m_236486/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#236486
balancing commitment and love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_199915/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#199915
love in bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_166085/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#166085
love and D/s

http://www.collarchat.com/m_65043/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#65043
love and bdsm (the unfettered heart)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_150281/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#150281
Is it normal to fall in love with your dom during training?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_125880/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#125880
not allowed to love him, what do I do?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_119832/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#119832
being owned or being loved

http://www.collarchat.com/m_97124/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#97124
subs/masochists and love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_31285/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#31285
can love get in the way?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_14998/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#14998
love in d/s

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2491/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#2491
is love important in a relationship?


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to homedespot)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 9:08:50 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: homedespot

The question: Using the definition of slave as above...can you be a slave to a Mistress without loving her. Without being, in fact, IN love with her. Is that a needed component? I believe you can be a submissive without loving or being in love with your Mistress. I believe you can be a Mistress/Owner without being IN love with your slave. I believe that those aren't "rules" but CAN happen...but I'm curious about the other.



Using those defination the answer is still no for me.

If I don't love someone, then I am just going to take what pleasure I can from the situation. I will go no further out of my way for them than I would any dear friend, and depending on the exact dynamic I have with the master/mistress, they may not even get that. I have said before that the difference, for me, between a fuck buddy and a relationship (be it d/s or vanilla) is love or the possiblity of it.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to homedespot)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 9:23:17 PM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Love is not needed for everyone. Love has nothing to with how a person chooses to identify themselves or the service they provide. In our relationship I have the ability to make negotiations and decisions so your definition doesn't fit for me.

Everyone chooses to live their dynamic in the way that works best for them. I am human and so is Master. We fell in love and it did nothing but enhance and make our bond stronger.

I have his control, dominance, integrity and his love. He has my obedience, commitment and love amongst many other things. To those that don't want or need love good for you but don't judge those of us that have it and thrive with it.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to homedespot)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 9:52:14 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Technically I might be able to be his slave but it would have far less depth and meaning than it does now.  One of the things I truly love about him is that he allows me to love as I have always needed to love, and he not only accepts it, he welcomes it and enjoys it.  This has created a bond I have never known before.

If I did not love him, he would enjoy my slavery less than he currently does, and I would find it far less fulfilling.  Whether or not he ended up loving me in return (he does - yay!), I need to be able to love him as I do.

(in reply to homedespot)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/5/2007 10:42:05 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		I don't think I could be His slave if I didn't love him.  I've known for a long time I've had slave tendencies but haven't acted on them and have always identified as a submissive, pretty much according to your definitions.   When we first started talking, I told him I was a submissive and wasn't looking for the same thing he was looking for.  But, we got talking and it turned out we had mutual friends (though I had lost touch with them) and once we met, I was taken.   And, every time I see him after we've been apart for a while, I fall for him again. 




_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to homedespot)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 12:57:20 AM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		For my perspective love between slave and mistress/master would be something to be avoided. I believe love could have disruptive effect on master-slave relationship. 

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 1:47:57 AM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		I found an article that supports my point:
http://www.the-estate.com/items/date/2005/06/28/the-east-wing-perspective-on-training-vs-romance/

(in reply to awmslave)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 5:12:46 AM   
homedespot


Posts: 79
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		awmslave. An excellent article, thanks for posting the link.

< Message edited by homedespot -- 9/6/2007 5:15:48 AM >

(in reply to awmslave)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 6:53:31 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		The priorities one sets really have to do with your proclivites and abilities. Some people see romantic involvement as the status quo for all "healthy" relationships. I guess whether it hamstrings an ability to excercise structured control is mostly going to do with how The Top in the situation views it. And thier own ability to be steadfast in dealing with it.

< Message edited by RRafe -- 9/6/2007 6:54:12 AM >

(in reply to homedespot)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 7:49:57 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Without love I can't submit. I certainly couldn't feel the deep need to put someone else's needs first. I'm not sure I can do that as a submissive in a loving relationship. Moreover I'm not sure I should, because if my needs aren't fulfilled then I'm empty and lacking the strength and drive to fulfill someone else's.

(in reply to RRafe)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 8:30:13 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		That's very nice-but can you think outside of the box and see how others might relate differently?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Without love I can't submit. I certainly couldn't feel the deep need to put someone else's needs first. I'm not sure I can do that as a submissive in a loving relationship. Moreover I'm not sure I should, because if my needs aren't fulfilled then I'm empty and lacking the strength and drive to fulfill someone else's.

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 8:39:59 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		How could someone own 'all of me' if they didn't own my heart too? By your definition of slave it seems like an all encompassing thing, so if the heart isn;t there too... is the person -really- your complete and utter slave? How can they be totally yours if part of them never comes into the equation? Just a view point, take it for what you will.

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 8:41:59 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		Not everyone will operate in the same emotional contexts as you.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds

How could someone own 'all of me' if they didn't own my heart too? By your definition of slave it seems like an all encompassing thing, so if the heart isn;t there too... is the person -really- your complete and utter slave? How can they be totally yours if part of them never comes into the equation? Just a view point, take it for what you will.

(in reply to ProlificNeeds)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 8:52:54 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetnurseBBW

Love is not needed for everyone. Love has nothing to with how a person chooses to identify themselves or the service they provide. In our relationship I have the ability to make negotiations and decisions so your definition doesn't fit for me.

Everyone chooses to live their dynamic in the way that works best for them. I am human and so is Master. We fell in love and it did nothing but enhance and make our bond stronger.

I have his control, dominance, integrity and his love. He has my obedience, commitment and love amongst many other things. To those that don't want or need love good for you but don't judge those of us that have it and thrive with it.


I agree with this. Love may or may not be important to anyone in any relationship. A slave, especially by your definitions, does not put their dominants interests, needs and desires above their own but naturally needs, does and enjoys doing this. Sounds like they are the same thing but it is quite actually a huge difference.

Love in any type of relationship for most it is a must have, for some it is needed or hopefully worked toward and for some it is not needed or wanted. Whether Vanilla, submissive by any definition or slave by any definition love is in some ways a compatibility thing and to answer the OP question in all honesty as someone who identifies as a slave and can come somewhat close to your definition the truth is I would not be with anyone that demands me to be more then a friend or for that matter just a casual friend where I do not love them and if they do not love me.



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)
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RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 9:25:02 AM   
favesclava


Posts: 1608
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		if Master no longer loved me, i would still be His slave. if i no longer loved Him i would still be His slave. His intergrity, His honesty and trust is all this girl needs to be happy. that He's in love with me is a plus, but not necessary.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 9:46:41 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

That's very nice-but can you think outside of the box and see how others might relate differently?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Without love I can't submit. I certainly couldn't feel the deep need to put someone else's needs first. I'm not sure I can do that as a submissive in a loving relationship. Moreover I'm not sure I should, because if my needs aren't fulfilled then I'm empty and lacking the strength and drive to fulfill someone else's.



Did you mean your comment to sound as condescending as it appears?

Certainly I can think outside the box but the truth is I am only a flawed human being. If I'm not allowed to sleep, I won't have any energy to run his errands the next day. If I'm not fed or kept dehydrated, ditto. The same for never being allowed to indulge my interests, I would get resentful. If I'm not allowed to talk about problems because he wasn't interested in whether or not I was happy, then I wouldn't have any incentive to try to please him. And more literally, if in an airplane and the oxygen masks came down, I would grab my own before I tried to get his to him, since I would pass out without it and be unable to help either of us.

Quite honestly, this whole 'think only of the owner, have no needs, plan to never get anything' reminds me of the man who tried to teach his horse to get by on less and less food. Asked by a friend a month later how it was going, he mourned that he had just trained the horse to work without any food and then it died. He saw no relationship between his actions and the consequences.

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Love from a slave perspective - 9/6/2007 11:34:07 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

That's very nice-but can you think outside of the box and see how others might relate differently?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Without love I can't submit. I certainly couldn't feel the deep need to put someone else's needs first. I'm not sure I can do that as a submissive in a loving relationship. Moreover I'm not sure I should, because if my needs aren't fulfilled then I'm empty and lacking the strength and drive to fulfill someone else's.



Did you mean your comment to sound as condescending as it appears?

Certainly I can think outside the box but the truth is I am only a flawed human being. If I'm not allowed to sleep, I won't have any energy to run his errands the next day. If I'm not fed or kept dehydrated, ditto. The same for never being allowed to indulge my interests, I would get resentful. If I'm not allowed to talk about problems because he wasn't interested in whether or not I was happy, then I wouldn't have any incentive to try to please him. And more literally, if in an airplane and the oxygen masks came down, I would grab my own before I tried to get his to him, since I would pass out without it and be unable to help either of us.

Quite honestly, this whole 'think only of the owner, have no needs, plan to never get anything' reminds me of the man who tried to teach his horse to get by on less and less food. Asked by a friend a month later how it was going, he mourned that he had just trained the horse to work without any food and then it died. He saw no relationship between his actions and the consequences.



I love this reply.

We see these threads time and time again and I am not complaining but time and time again people are asking for whatever their reasons is basically the same, if you call yourself submissive and more importantly call yourself a slave should you not just only care about your owner and not or be able to not indulge in your desires and needs if they do not concern your owners and whether or not love is part of serving or not.

Time and time again you get most people going flat out no and some say yes. No one is right or wrong as all human beings are different.

The fact though of these topics if you expect a submissive to dedicate their life to their owner by being in some sort of significant/main relationship at least for that submissive the dominant if has to be concerned and responsible to make sure the submissive’s needs are met. Submissive’s are not special humans and for a percentage these needs include both giving and receiving love, affection and sex.

Can you find submissives who do not need these things yes of course you can but the reality of the situation is that is finding a needle in the haystack and just like all other humans our needs and desires are basically the same but slightly different. Submissives and going by the OP definition of a slave it is about putting their owners needs and interests first it does not mean not to have any needs or interests and certainly basic human needs that a major majority have.



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 20
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