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Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 3:31:51 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline 		I have an issue I'd like to bring forward...It has to do with negotiation and the use of condoms.

I insist upon condom use in my early negotiations because I am not engaging in monogamous play at this time. It's a hard limit, and agreed upon or intercourse is ruled out. Clear and simple.

So, why do some dominants think they only have to if I actually tell them to in the moment? It's as though they wait to see if I will remind them, and if I don't then they can go ahead without the condom.

It's extremely hard for me to insist in that moment. It goes against my nature to insist...because I'd rather please my partner than think about my own safety...but that's not responsible.

When I have to worry about the condom, or stop and insist, it takes me right out of subspace, and that's a huge shame. It breaks the D/s dynamic.

As far as I see it, this is no different than telling someone I don't use gags. I shouldn't have to keep telling them. They know it and they don't bring out a gag and wait and see if I protest. Why should this be seen as any different?

I lose great respect for any dominant who tries to pull this.

Anyone want to share their feelings on this?

Cin

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 3:42:54 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Yes its annoying and yes I'd have a hard time having sex with someone again if they even THOUGHT about not wearing a condom.

Other than being clear from the start "condoms, EVERY time" there's nothing you can do other than what you've been doing.

It's hard to say no, but there's a good reason you made it a hard limit and you should never forget it.

Not to make it into a threat, but for me- saying no to condoms ONCE means saying no to me FOREVER.

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 3:53:44 PM   
MissA


Posts: 192
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful
I lose great respect for any dominant who tries to pull this.


And well you should, breaking the "condoms every time" limit really is no different than breaking any other limit. I wouldn't trust anyone who couldn't respect ALL of my limits. This time they conveniently forget the condom limit...what about next time?
Take care,
~Ms. A~

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 3:54:59 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

It's extremely hard for me to insist in that moment. It goes against my nature to insist...because I'd rather please my partner than think about my own safety...but that's not responsible.

When I have to worry about the condom, or stop and insist, it takes me right out of subspace, and that's a huge shame. It breaks the D/s dynamic.


It is better to be taken out of your headspace & be safe than to just go with the flow & lose your life. Std's that can be cured with a little stick of a needle are not the primary worry these days. Having a safety in place for yourself by saying that you insist on condoms being used is valid & should be respected. If a dom ever crosses this limit with you then he obviously has no respect for you or your wishes or your limits & is only interested in his 'ungloved winky'.

Hard limits are set up to let our partners know where the line is drawn. Regardless as to what this limit is, if our partner agrees to this limit it needs to be respected. I don't care if it is as silly as having a hard limit of never wearing blue on Fridays. This should be honored just like the typical top 3 many have, no children, no scat & no animals.

I know all too well how we can get caught up in the moment & it just isn't convenient to put on the brakes & put on the condom, but being safe during sex isn't just about convenience, it's about staying healthy & staying alive. Better to break the mood & be responsible, besides getting back in the mood could be twice the fun.


MstrssPassion

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 4:31:33 PM   
dominmd


Posts: 474
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		No glove, No love. Anyone who does not respect this hard limit should be considered an instant walkaway. Sorry, I value my health and the health of a partner more than the sex.

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 4:37:25 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

Anyone want to share their feelings on this?


A hard limit is a hard limit is a hard limit.

Whether or not anyone agrees with it or not is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that it is your hard limit and if someone willingly and consensually engaged with you knowing this hard limit and tried to push it, then they were out of line.

If they have an issue with your hard limit or would like you to reconsider it, it should be done at a neutral moment and not in the heat of it.

- LA

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 6:34:24 PM   
perfection20005


Posts: 419
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline 		Even if you lose you "subspace", its better to be safe. It is a shame that some men never learn when you tell them something!! If its discussed before hand as a hard limit, then it should be used.

perfection

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 7:01:43 PM   
junkyard


Posts: 107
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry to be the provocative one here, but...You get what you pay for. Hard limits? Negotiations? Funny...

If you want something different: put in the time, attain real intimacy, and then maybe you won't even need to worry about condoms because you will have real trust and hopefully everyone's good health is not a factor.

I happen to be part of the population that would rather just abstain if condoms are involved. And that's my hard limit. I can't think of anything less sexy than making love to a piece of latex with a woman in the room.

If you want to make it with a piece of rubber, I think there are many online vendors that can help you.

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 7:08:33 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junkyard
If you want something different: put in the time, attain real intimacy, and then maybe you won't even need to worry about condoms because you will have real trust and hopefully everyone's good health is not a factor.

It doesn't matter how much I love the boyfriend or how long we live together or what amount of intimacy we have- it wouldn't kill the germs either of us might have and it won't kill the sperm that would make me pregnant.

And since we have no desire or intention to ever be monogamous, it's just the smart thing to do, and it's nothing to do with lack of "real trust."

quote:


I happen to be part of the population that would rather just abstain if condoms are involved. And that's my hard limit. I can't think of anything less sexy than making love to a piece of latex with a woman in the room.

That's fine, I fully support you making that choice and that you let any possible partners know about that up front. We would never have sex with eachother.
quote:


If you want to make it with a piece of rubber, I think there are many online vendors that can help you.

That's really quite rude. Are you going to put down women who masturbate with dildos next?

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 7:19:41 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		There is certainly nothing wrong with being 'in the moment'...but i guess i would ask: is that ONE moment worth dying for?
unfortunately, in todays society...that's what we face being non-protected. It sucks, but it's the truth.

Stick to your guns, you are what's important...you are going to live your life....you are what comes first....it's your health. Any Dominant/Top...yada yada yada who does not know that....find someone who does.


my .02

~smilezz~

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 7:27:52 PM   
fourpeas


Posts: 243
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junkyard

Sorry to be the provocative one here, but...You get what you pay for. Hard limits? Negotiations? Funny...

If you want something different: put in the time, attain real intimacy, and then maybe you won't even need to worry about condoms because you will have real trust and hopefully everyone's good health is not a factor.

I happen to be part of the population that would rather just abstain if condoms are involved. And that's my hard limit. I can't think of anything less sexy than making love to a piece of latex with a woman in the room.

If you want to make it with a piece of rubber, I think there are many online vendors that can help you.



Yikes. This scares me. Although I do agree with you about the trust factor being an issue...


... Do any of us really wait the 6 months after we've had ANY sexual contact in between sexual partners that are at risk for HIV and other STDs? Most of us don't. And to say this is a lack of intimacy is a problem.

In my personal experience, I had a long term boyfriend with whom it was truly an issue of intimacy that I did not want to have unprotected sex. However, as a monogamous sexual activity person, I long for unprotected sex someday, but when I do we will both have been tested and deal with the consequences. To say you'd rather not have sex at all than have sex with a condom is just irresponsible and offensive in this day and age. That is how people get AIDS and die, that attitude right there.

I'm not trying to flame but I would rather not have people make stupid decisions and die because of BS comments like that. It's not safe, it's not safe, and it's irresponsible unless you REALLY ARE willing to make that effort. Do you wait 6 months in between partners? Does your partner? Do you insist on getting tested and seeing the results before you are sexually active? If the answer to all those questions is yes then go ahead doing what you are doing. But don't talk down to the rest of us who decide to use condoms, all the time, or until we are we are sure we are monogamous and safe.

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 7:39:28 PM   
junkyard


Posts: 107
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
And since we have no desire or intention to ever be monogamous, it's just the smart thing to do, and it's nothing to do with lack of "real trust."


I agree. With your circumstances, it is the least you can do but also far from a perfect solution - esp. for a woman. Please see (quick google link providing the basic details of the problem): http://www.metrokc.gov/health/apu/std/condomefficacy.htm

The upshot here is that while condoms can be effective, they are certainly not 100% effective. If there is a break, a leak, slip in the use of a condom - you have a problem. A friend of mine in the scene just had an abortion and she uses condoms all the time. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you can get pregnant using a condom I think you can catch a nice dose of HIV, Chlamydia, etc too.

To me, that's a bad bet.

quote:


That's fine, I fully support you making that choice and that you let any possible partners know about that up front. We would never have sex with eachother.


I am extremely honest in all my dealings regardless of their nature. And thanks for sparing me your interest. Indeed, as I have everything to say about it - we would never have sex with each other.

quote:


That's really quite rude. Are you going to put down women who masturbate with dildos next?


It was a little provocative, I admit - but I passed no judgments on the activity. That's you doing that part, so can it with the projecting.


< Message edited by junkyard -- 7/13/2005 8:04:58 PM >

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 7:43:08 PM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		I was told to get a blood test from my Mistress before inter-course without a condom was used.
Its a thing of safety. A friend who is a Doctor told me it is a wise move. He has said its even smart to get a blood test in a commited relationship every six months just to make sure they is nothing in the blood stream that can affect the other person. Like Hep B etc.

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 7:54:14 PM   
junkyard


Posts: 107
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fourpeas
I'm not trying to flame but I would rather not have people make stupid decisions and die because of BS comments like that. It's not safe, it's not safe, and it's irresponsible unless you REALLY ARE willing to make that effort. Do you wait 6 months in between partners? Does your partner? Do you insist on getting tested and seeing the results before you are sexually active? If the answer to all those questions is yes then go ahead doing what you are doing. But don't talk down to the rest of us who decide to use condoms, all the time, or until we are we are sure we are monogamous and safe.


Since you asked...

Yes, I do make that effort and I do require a clean bill of health that I can read and confirm with my own eyes. I also provide the same clean bill of health for myself to a prospective partner. Sloppy, great sex is only irresponsible if you want to do it all half-assed. And yes, I mean half-assed as in without real intimacy and trust. Without real intimacy and trust, you have to watch over yourself like a traffic cop and direct the course of action.

I am not the boss of anyone but me; everyone else has to choose their own comfort level. Just don't fool yourself that condoms are a protection unless you use them for oral sex on a man, oral sex on a woman, any kind of intercourse, and also on all of your penetrative toys. Hell, it's even possible to spread skin diseases with floggers, do you suppose you can escape herpes and HPV with a condom? Good luck with that one...please see the aforementioned link.

I don't pretend to be the nicest guy here. But I won't bullshit you with the truth. The scene is full of bullshit from people that want what they want, but without having to be very responsible for the consequences of those wants.


< Message edited by junkyard -- 7/13/2005 7:56:11 PM >

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 8:14:11 PM   
DaddyGrey


Posts: 13
Joined: 1/15/2004
From: Pacoima, CA
Status: offline 		In my opinion any limit which is agreed to in a negotiation becomes law, for both parties. IF there is a change of heart, perspective or situation, you need to then negotiate all over again.

Whether it's condoms (very, very sensible!), no blood, no hoods, no canes, or whatever, is not the point. HE agreed to YOUR terms, then proceeded to seek an opportunity to break them for his own ends. BAD TOP!

If a fellow is bent on unprotected sex, he aught to say so upfront and 'poof', end of negotiation.

As to those who rely on tests to justify unsafe sex with others, how can you be certain that they had NO risky encounters in the time between the testing and the results getting to you? May as well just take their word for it when they say they are clean. It's the same. You don't know and you cannot be certain. And you have NOT got a relyable result with only one set of tests, anyway. Three negative over a span of a couple months is the rule.

Unless you are in a strictly monogamous, fluid bonded, no outside play whatsoever relationship, you ARE at risk, from your own encounters, or from your partners.

Insisting on condoms is just sane! It's sensible! It should not even be a question! Anyone who resists this truly has little regard for your health, or their own.

Daddy Grey

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 8:40:07 PM   
junkyard


Posts: 107
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddyGrey
Whether it's condoms (very, very sensible!), no blood, no hoods, no canes, or whatever, is not the point. HE agreed to YOUR terms, then proceeded to seek an opportunity to break them for his own ends. BAD TOP!


Yeah, that's interesting isn't. Subs would seem to want to lay down the law in terms of their limits, but they also tend to want to find that "most excellent" Dom that knows how to push against and maybe even transgress against those same limits.

Maybe what they really want is someone they can really and truly trust. And maybe you can't just find such a one at a sex club. Maybe finding such a person takes patience, effort, and for one to be sending out the right signals.

People will know who you are by your actions. If you take risks, they will take risks with you too. It happens all the time. I see it and hear about it all the time. The number one thing I hear from subs all the time: "I should not have let him [blank]...." And hindsight is 20/20.

quote:


As to those who rely on tests to justify unsafe sex with others, how can you be certain that they had NO risky encounters in the time between the testing and the results getting to you? May as well just take their word for it when they say they are clean. It's the same. You don't know and you cannot be certain. And you have NOT got a relyable result with only one set of tests, anyway. Three negative over a span of a couple months is the rule.


I agree with this in part and disagree with it in part. This condom issue centers on trust. Without trust, a sub is directing the action because she *HAS TO.* I assume having to direct action and make sure she is safe pulls her out of the desired headspace routinely, but what's the alternative?

I like to see the printed test results because I just want to be sure of that result - trust is earned and increases over time, and it never hurts to have actual evidence to backup a claim. Yes, those test results could be wrong and periodic retesting is just smart. Basic honesty is a character trait and not an absolute guarantee. But I fail to see how patience and taking one's time to find an honest person worthy of one's trust is somehow misguided.

But for those of you who play poly, anonymously, and even with strangers - don't you have to assume that every partner might have even the deadliest of diseases? Where does that leave you with your condoms and other toys? Do you acquire whole sets of gear for each new partner? Where are you really at with your supposed safety?

I think I am far safer requiring actual proof of good health and good character. YMMV.

< Message edited by junkyard -- 7/13/2005 8:49:15 PM >

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 9:34:57 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junkyard
. Just don't fool yourself that condoms are a protection unless you use them for oral sex on a man, oral sex on a woman, any kind of intercourse, and also on all of your penetrative toys. Hell, it's even possible to spread skin diseases with floggers, do you suppose you can escape herpes and HPV with a condom? Good luck with that one...please see the aforementioned link.


THIS is why I believe in bringing my own toys when we play with someone else. Of -course- we use protection with any type of intercourse/penetration/act where fluids are exchanged. I mean, what's the point of wearing a condom for intercourse if you have unprotected oral? I'm on birth control so the pregnancy thing isn't a worry, it's STD's that trouble me. Why bother with protection if you're going to do it half-assed? I care about myself and my partner more than that.

Too, I prefer to ask a partner for some sort of proof of disease-less-ness, but still, having done my reading as well, I'm willing to trust my safter sex precautions-namely, protection used correctly, every time I am sexual in any way with someone not my partner. While I know it isn't 100% effective, the very high amount of protection offered, coupled with my knowledge of potential partners, is enough to satisfy my partner and myself.

While I understand where youa re coming from, I dislike the way you're talking about people who use condoms becuase they aren't monogamous. Or who are monogamous and choose to use condoms anyway.

Sex is fun. ;) I've been with people I trust VERY deeply. I still use protection with them, because they were not my life partner. He is the only person I exchange fluids with. Using barrier protection doesn't indicate a lesser degree of trust.

Frankly, I think protected sex IS the perfect solution, if used correctly and used every time. It allows for sexual freedom with relative saftey. (Again, I have done my research. I know success/failure rates.)

Also, what if you don't want to wait the six months with a partner? Say you've met your life partner, you're going to be together, monogamously, for the rest of your lives. You'd still both have to wait 6mo for test results to get back. Why wait that six months for sexual contact when you can have largely safe sex through the use of a condom.


My problem is that I have a mild allergy to latex. Polyurethane condoms are EXPENSIVE! Heh, I've been tempted to blame our recent 100% monogamy on how much it would cost to be with other people ;)


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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/13/2005 9:52:29 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		I would get up and ask the person politely to leave.
Then I would discuss the reason the them the next day!
Some GooGooSoonies!

*Brightspot

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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/14/2005 12:05:23 AM   
SteelBondager


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/29/2005
Status: offline 		brightspot: GooGooSoonies?



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RE: Condoms as a Hard Limit - 7/14/2005 12:14:22 AM   
SteelBondager


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/29/2005
Status: offline 		Obviously, he doesn't take you seriously. "Soft limits" are the stretchable, pushable ones. Breaking "hard limits" needs to be met with strength and finality.

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