RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships?

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tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:18:29 AM)
"I did manage to just post what I thought was a mildly interesting piece of info that (IMO) relates to the topic." That is a book for sale. It seems interesting because it has been marketed to people who will buy it. You might want to consider a more practical selection process?

SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:21:02 AM)
tsherpet: You win. You're right about absolutlely everyhting. I am a complete fool, and I agree - I have no right to believe anything not previously sanctioned as "believable" by you specifically. Now will you please just leave me alone? You didn't even bother to read what I posted from an outside source (and I took some trouble to find it, btw - it was in specific reference to your assumption about "what we all know" - watch that use of the word "we" would you please?) The author's bibliography is right there, listed in the post, if you want to read it. Now it seems you are intent on getting Mstrss Scarlet to defend her recent post. It's obvious she believes it happened. Do you really think she is interested in debating with you about that? - Susan

CuriousLord -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:29:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Sorry for the rant. It's all good. Best to get things out, and, meh, we're all human. Passive aggressiveness is the sort of thing that's hard to tolerate; if only everyone was so upfront. quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO There are supposedily many more than 4 dimensions. And because humans can only perceive 4 (but more can be proven to exist, at least theorectically, I've heard there may be as many as 12,(and I read this in Scientific American, btw, not some Pyschic newsletter) Yeah, this is a consquence of "string theory" (the theory that the most basic level of matter consists of tiny, vibrating "strings". (Not as complicated as it sounds, just uses a different prospective to call these things "strings". The "strings" are strings in the sense that they're contineous with respect to time, so it's nothing new.) Anyhow, I sort of doubt most understand exactly what these extra diminisions (which are predicted by a theory that's under fire, not observed nor established). They're sort of.. extra room. (Their perpendicular axis is circular.) quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I am pretty sure that "proof" in the sense some are hoping for isn't going to be happening anytime soon. Yeah. At this point, it's highly unlikely proof will ever come as it's quite unlikely that these "pychics" are anything but delussion (so no proof will come since there's nothing true to prove). quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO But I do think that some people have had experiences that simply cannot be explained away by "science as we mostly know it" Probably more invents of their mind. The mind tries to read reality, but it's not perfect at interpreting it. Often times, we tend to interept things we observe in manners that we want to. This is likely the source of much psychic phenominia. Others? Well, you know, we don't exactly understand dreams, but it's quite possible some people just undergo a mild dream cycle while still being awake. Or a dozen other possibilities. quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO But the people who sometimes report these things do seem lucid and coherent - some might be raving maniacs, but some appear to be definitely not. I can empathize here, actually. In my youth, I used to believe in a ghost that lived in my house. I lived in a mansion, and I was alone in my wing of the house. We had two small dogs, but they remained in another wing, very far away. Nonetheless, at nights, I'd consistently hear footsteps. I could get up, and track them down in some hallway. They wouldn't stop, or jump. Just keep going, right there infront of me, walking without seeming to care for my presense. I'd often sense feelings of intense hatred, or otherwise, from that place. At times, I'd run away from there, scared. I still remember being up late in my study one night. The footsteps, which I was growing acustomed to, were in a nearby hall. They came up to the doorway, and stopped. The hatred type of feeling seemed to scream. My computer moniter lifted off the desk, flew up into the air violently (oddly, beyond the length of the cord that held it into place), slammed into the ceiling, then seemed to start to move in my direction (which is a guess; at this point, my back was to it). I darted. Ran like hell itself was at my heels to my parents' room, frantically explaining what had just happened. After an hour or so, I recovered my wits and went back to my side of the house. I went to sleep after suspiciously watching that night, jumping at any small noise, praying to not hear the footsteps again. The next day, I went to the study and looked up at the ceiling above the moniter. The moniter was fine. The ceiling had a considerable gash in it; one I could not have caused (as I was probably four feet tall at the time; neither tall nor strong enough) nor was there before (it was certainly noticable). No other evidence remained and my parents disregarded the gash. Later, after buying into the whole bit, whenever I would see such a thing, I would glare at it with a threat; anything that didn't cease to be, I would cause to cease existing. I noted that my very thoughts destroyed what appeared to be real things. So, I can kill ghosts with my mind. This always contributed to the notion that ghosts were substituents of my mental process. That gash in the ceiling always seemed to grow more insubstaintal until it was just a slight discolaration in the wood. I guess I shouldn't have been working at 1AM. quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I wish I had more of these experiences of my own to report, but I fear I am not very psychic. At this time, lacking psychic experiences appears to be one sign of mental health. quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO But I am still kind of interested in the reports of those who maybe are - anyway, thanks for listening to my rant. I am going to see if I can find some info re: psychic phemoena on the Internet (not that the intenet has much crdibility overall, as a source,but some sources are better than others as far as that goes). In the mean-time, maybe someone will write in about their own (as some already have done). Hopefully my story above will be entertaining.

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:31:07 AM)
"You didn't even bother to read what I posted from an outside source " Yes, I did. Have you bothered with my book suggestion? "Now it seems you are intent on getting Mstrss Scarlett to defend her recent post. " Not at all, I am simply asking why psychics in general hide their abilities instead of investigating them for their personal understanding and the understanding of all humanity. MstrssScarlet doesn't have to answer if she doesn't want to, but perhaps someone else who believes would like to? Even unanswered it is a question worth asking. Why so many problems with questions? You have enjoyment of intellectual discourse in your profile, yet you seem to dislike it immensely?

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:36:07 AM)
"You win. You're right about absolutlely everyhting." No one is right about absolutely everything, and this is a childish response to a rational discussion. And I only win if people think and look into things for themselves. "I have no right to believe anything not previously sanctioned as "believable" by you specifically" It has nothing to do with what I allow or not. The FACT is no psychic has ever been able to prove their own claims. Not what I say they should do, what they say they should do.

SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:36:14 AM)
CuriousLord: I very much appreciated your "ghost story". Thanks for that. Some psychics believe that if you simply tell ghosts to go away (or change your frame of attention away from, rather than toward them, that they do indeed "cease to be" -(for you at that moment anyway). One of my my most recent posts (3 posts ago, from an outside source) I posted mostly because thought it might be interesting for you (it has a scientific bent,and was writtten by a past college porfessor and MIT grad who worked at Bell Labs). I thought it was fascinating, the cross-over between psi and newer scienctific theories. I thought it might be a good read for whoever else was interested, too. I was actually trying to get the dicussion on a more "science-friendly" plane. Just trying to make an effort - I am sure some will blow it off anyway. I don't really care much anymore, though. -Susan

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:39:25 AM)
"I was actually trying to get the dicussion on a more "science-friendly" plane." Cool. First thing, the scientific method. Second the sceptic organsiations offering big (unclaimed) money for any psychic who can prove their abilities.

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:43:15 AM)
"The $100,000 Prize The Australian Skeptics will pay $100,000 for proof of extraordinary powers. Who are we challenging? Do you have psychic or paranormal powers? We don't mean the illusion or trickery in stage magic, we mean things like extra sensory perception, telepathy, telekinesis, divining for water or metals, clairvoyance and predicting the future. We are challenging such claims and we are also challenging unsubstantiated claims of healing and miracle cures. Skeptics challenge The Australian Skeptics challenge people who claim to have extraordinary powers to demonstrate their ability under test conditions. We offer a cash prize of $100,000." http://www.skeptics.com.au/prizes/challenge.htm

AAkasha -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:43:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tsherpet "You didn't even bother to read what I posted from an outside source " Yes, I did. Have you bothered with my book suggestion? "Now it seems you are intent on getting Mstrss Scarlett to defend her recent post. " Not at all, I am simply asking why psychics in general hide their abilities instead of investigating them for their personal understanding and the understanding of all humanity. MstrssScarlet doesn't have to answer if she doesn't want to, but perhaps someone else who believes would like to? Even unanswered it is a question worth asking. Why so many problems with questions? You have enjoyment of intellectual discourse in your profile, yet you seem to dislike it immensely? I lean more to the skeptic side but with a fairly open mind about such things. In my opinion, the reasons psychics in general hide their abilities (sometimes; well, those not out to make a buck) is the same way many of us "hide" our interest in kink. Because you never know who will judge you (prematurely), think you are crazy, write you off as unbalanced, etc. Why bother? They grow up with it and probably have some crappy experiences in their youth and realize it's better to keep their mouth shut than to trouble other people when most of the time they will be written off. I talked in depth to a fairly well known psychic in my area (we bartered some marketing advice for a free 'reading' - I wasn't totally swayed, but some interesting things did pop up) and I don't doubt that he believes in what he sees/feels/hears. I also know he's got a troubling life and so much of it is because he grew up dealing with what he saw (visions, ghosts, whatever) and had to spent a huge chunk of his life hiding it because he knew he'd end up in the hospital, medicated or institutionalized (he's on the older side, perhaps things are different now). The problem with debates like this about psychics is that on one end of the scale you can probably have very justifyable people who simply are capable of processing information and cues from others that escapes most people. How they get their "intuitions" about people they have no idea, but their mind is picking it up - from smells to subtle behaviors to who knows what. I think it's been proven that the human mind is capable of processing and managing information in ways we're not fully aware of. I think a great many psychics who do readings are very good at processing the body language and reactions of the people they are serving; is it manipulation or intentional? For many, I don't think so. Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, you have people who talk to ghosts and communicate with siblings or twins in other states, etc. -- well, who knows? But I find it difficult to put this in the same category as the ability some people (appear) to have to "read" others. Akasha

SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:45:15 AM)
tsherpet: You might enjoy reading it. For a real eye opener, read the author's notes on why he wrote the book. They are toward the bottom of another reference about the author you can reference from that same post (under "author"). He has some pretty eye-opening things to say about hard-core skepticism where this topic is concerned, and that many don't attempt to understand the connection between this topic and what is generally viewed as "science" - and if you look at his credentials, it's pretty obvious (to me) the man has them, and also has a good-sized brain. Wait. Here they are: [image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/radin_com.jpg[/image] home [image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/v_line.gif[/image] Conscious Universe [image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/v_line.gif[/image] Entangled Minds [image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/v_line.gif[/image] Activities [image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/v_line.gif[/image] Bio [image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/spacer.gif[/image] [image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/Radin13small.jpg[/image] I played classical violin professionally until age 25, then switched to fiddle and banjo and played in bluegrass bands for a number of years. Along the way I graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, magna cum laude and with senior honors, from the University of Massachusetts (Amherst), a masters in electrical engineering from the University of Illinois (Champaign-Urbana), and a PhD in psychology, also from the University of Illinois. For a decade I worked at AT&T Bell Laboratories and later at GTE Laboratories on advanced telecommunications R&D, and then I held appointments at Princeton University, University of Edinburgh, University of Nevada, SRI International and Interval Research Corporation, where I was engaged in research on psychic or "psi" phenomena. At SRI I worked on what is now popularly known as the (formerly classified) psi research program codenamed StarGate. In 2000 I cofounded the Boundary Institute and since 2001 I've been Senior Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. I also hold an adjunct appointment at Sonoma State University and am on the Distinguished Consulting Faculty at Saybrook Graduate School. The majority of my professional career has focused on experimentally probing the far reaches of human consciousness, primarily poorly understood phenomena like intuition, gut feelings and psi phenomena. Very few scientists are actively engaged in research on these perennially interesting topics, and perhaps because of this unusual choice of profession I was featured in a New York Times Magazine article in 1996. My interests in these topics were motivated partially by sheer curiosity, but also by an appreciation that these experiences are responsible for most of the greatest inventions, artistic and scientific achievements, creative insights, and religious epiphanies throughout history. Understanding this realm of human experience thus offers more than mere academic interest -- it touches upon the very best that the human intellect and spirit have had to offer. I discovered while working on these topics that I enjoy the challenge of exploring the frontiers of science, and that I am comfortable tolerating the ambiguity of not knowing the "right answer," which is a constant companion at the frontier. After being engaged in the scientific investigation of such phenomena for about 25 years, I've become convinced through the laboratory evidence that some psychic experiences are genuine, that many people do have real psychic experiences (occasionally), and that most people who claim to have extremely reliable or accurate psychic abilities are delusional. This topic is exploited for entertainment purposes, and the world is full of unscrupulous individuals who falsely claim psychic abilities, so I understand why many scientists avoid this topic. Nevertheless, because the empirical evidence reveals that some psychic effects can be repeatedly observed under controlled conditions, these phenomena are profoundly important because they suggest that prevailing scientific assumptions about human capacities are seriously incomplete. There is certainly room for scholarly debate about these topics, and I know many informed skeptics whose opinions I value. However, I've also learned that there are some who are irrationally hostile about this topic, yet they know little or nothing about it. There is no kind way to say this, but the most stubborn skeptics do not understand scientific methods or the use of statistical inference, nor do they appreciate the history, philosophy or sociology of science. Their emotional rejection of the evidence seems to be motivated by fundamentalist beliefs of the scientistic or religious kind. You may contact me via email as dean at noetic dot org, but due to the huge volume of emails I receive, and the rising tide of spam, I can't promise to reply. I thank John Zeuli for taking the above photo in August 2005. Last update January 26, 2007. - Susan

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 1:00:41 AM)
"In my opinion, the reasons psychics in general hide their abilities (sometimes; well, those not out to make a buck) is the same way many of us "hide" our interest in kink. Because you never know who will judge you (prematurely), think you are crazy, write you off as unbalanced, etc. Why bother? " Yes they say that, but it just doesn't make sense. Proving it would immediately stop any ridiculing, it would give psychics credibility and gain scientific support. That arguement makes no sesne as proof would prevent the problem. Also how could someone not want to contribute to the advacnment of human understanding? "I think a great many psychics who do readings are very good at processing the body language and reactions of the people they are serving" Yes, but psychologists who understand the process routinely outperform the "psychics" who don't understand the process. How memory works also plays a big part. "You might enjoy reading it. For a real eye opener, read the author's notes on why he wrote the book. " From the books own description and it's obvious marketing it is very doubtful I would enjoy reading it. And for a real eye opener I would require proof, not books written to an audience for profit. Sorry but I lost all interest in these kinds of promotional material in my teens. Susan, You really need to put more thought into how you look into this phenomena, unless you only want what you believe confirmed. PLEASE try Sagans book the Demon Haunted World. It will help your selection process.

SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 1:04:16 AM)
thserpet: Ah well, sorry to disappoint. Like I said, there isn't really much left for me to say, is there? I already said I agreed completely with you -what more do you want? I am pretty familiar with Sagan. What makes you think I haven't already read any Sagan books? Aakasha: I agree with what your post said. - Susan

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 1:23:59 AM)
"I already said I agreed completely with you -what more do you want? " That's the last thing I want. Thoughtless agreement of blind belief are worthless. And that tactic is something people should have outgrown by high school. "I am pretty familiar with Sagan. What makes you think I haven't already read any Sagan books? " I was referring to one in particular, and if you've read it you need to have another go and take it more slowly. What you posted as interesting tells me if you read the book you didn't understand it.

Aswad -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 2:15:59 AM)
Irrespective of the OPs claims, I'll address your flawed argument... quote: ORIGINAL: tsherpet First thing, the scientific method. Deals with a discipline of prediction and observation in a cycle of refining predictive models, to keep it simple. There are definite limitations to the method, though, for instance in regard to singleton events. Furthermore, as the study of epistemology will reveal, there are definite antinomies of science. All it offers is a way to model observed reality. And a lot of what is called science is predicated on assumptions outside its epistemology. It is an incremental process that, by itself, tends toward local maxima of understanding; progress toward a global maxima has quite often hinged upon hunches, guesswork, and other elements that are firmly outside scientific method. quote: Second the sceptic organsiations offering big (unclaimed) money for any psychic who can prove their abilities. Bringing this one up in the context of science lowers your credibility, as the argument contains a fallacy (in this case, "¬P ⇒ ¬Q, ¬Q ⊢ ¬P"; the latter term does not follow form the former, so this argument does not address the proposition). I seem to recall this is a particular kind of syllogistic fallacy, but that is immaterial. If you are familiar with these organizations, you know the terms of the challenges involved, and will most likely have understood that the intent is not science, but rather to substitute blind faith in one paradigm with blind faith in another; in short, simply atheistic evangelism. It is a tool for convincing those who have, on poor grounds, picked a belief these organizations do not like, using a false argument that will be adequate to sway the target audience. Bear in mind, also, that the terms include prior public disclosure of identity and claims, regardless of the strength of the claims (excluding most who have a rational doubt and do not wish publicity in case they are wrong, or worse yet, if they are right), as well as all expenses being paid by the claimant, while being determined by the organizations in question. Sufficient testing to scientifically prove something that is outside the scientific body of knowledge (the gist of the challenge) by far dwarfs the prize money. It has been repeatedly admitted that the point of the terms is to discourage anyone from trying, and to make it unlikely that anyone will succeed. In short, an argument from greed: most people with little concept of scientific method see the prize money and think "wow, that's a lot of money, anyone would step forward to claim that kind of money, so there can't be anyone with those abilities, because the money hasn't been claimed", without realizing that the money is a red herring, at best. While I agree that it's sad that many people are duped by fraudulent claims, I think it's equally sad that someone would think duping people with fraudulent arguments "for the greater good" is a viable way of dealing with that problem. It compromises the integrity of their position, IMNSFHO. YMMV. Again, not addressing the OPs claims here, just your faulty arguments. If you wish, I can address the flaws in your paradigm, as well. But I'm quite content to let you have your own beliefs. Even if you don't extend that courtesy to the OP. Health, al-Aswad.

xoxi -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 2:57:48 AM)
Fast reply: Wow. I'm on page 4 and I have to stop reading this. This thread was the most depressing thing I have seen on this board. tsherpet - I admire your perseverence. The awful analogies and comparing belief to evidence would have made me give up after 3 posts. People will believe what they want to believe and no "facts" (quotation marks theirs) will ever sway them. Belief in psychic power is equivalent to belief in God. Believe what you want but don't confuse it with an empirical fact.

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 3:04:34 AM)
"All it offers is a way to model observed reality." Yes. The observable reality of people making claims and not being able to live up to them. And the observable reality of those who understand the psychological aspects outperformring those who cling to the archaic supernatural. "progress toward a global maxima has quite often hinged upon hunches, guesswork, and other elements that are firmly outside scientific method. " The scientific method is what one uses to test the validity of the hunches and guesswork. "Second the sceptic organsiations offering big (unclaimed) money for any psychic who can prove their abilities. Bringing this one up in the context of science lowers your credibility, as the argument contains a fallacy" People make a claim, money is offered for anyone who can back up such a claim, money is still on offer as all attempts have failed. Where is the fallacy? Also none of the excuses for not trying to prove ones abilities make any sense, unless one is admitting selfishness or shortsightedness. "If you are familiar with these organizations, you know the terms of the challenges involved, and will most likely have understood that the intent is not science, but rather to substitute blind faith in one paradigm with blind faith in another; in short, simply atheistic evangelism. It is a tool for convincing those who have, on poor grounds, picked a belief these organizations do not like, using a false argument that will be adequate to sway the target audience. " Rubbish. The intent is for psychics to get away from heavily edited tv shows and books and anecdotal "evidence" and to back up their own claims. And lets not forget the complete absecence of any scientific methodology from the psychics. "Bear in mind, also, that the terms include prior public disclosure of identity and claims, regardless of the strength of the claims (excluding most who have a rational doubt and do not wish publicity in case they are wrong, or worse yet, if they are right), as well as all expenses being paid by the claimant, while being determined by the organizations in question. " And why shouldn't the claimant's identity be known? We don't want them failing the test then stealing money with self promotional books. And why shouldn't they pay their own exspense if they are confident their abilities exist? "Sufficient testing to scientifically prove something that is outside the scientific body of knowledge (the gist of the challenge)" The challenge is not to explain psychic abilities, just to prove their existence. That is not outside the scientific body of knowledge, it is in fact exactly what science is all about. "It has been repeatedly admitted that the point of the terms is to discourage anyone from trying, and to make it unlikely that anyone will succeed. " The terms are to discourage every nut from trying, and only those who think they are the real deal. It is also so any famous money making psychics who have a go will be exposed to their victims. "In short, an argument from greed: most people with little concept of scientific method see the prize money and think "wow, that's a lot of money, anyone would step forward to claim that kind of money, so there can't be anyone with those abilities, because the money hasn't been claimed", without realizing that the money is a red herring, at best. " What absolute garbage. The money is an incentive, but the real selling point for psychics is credibility. "Again, not addressing the OPs claims here, just your faulty arguments." Well you gave a nice speech, but you didn't do much to my correct arguements. I'm sure that impresses some people, and good luck to you, but your views on the scientific method suggest you are out of your depth.

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 3:06:15 AM)
"The awful analogies and comparing belief to evidence would have made me give up after 3 posts." Isn't that why they use such tactics?

firmobeisance -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 3:14:14 AM)
Thank you, SusanofO (and indirectly you too tsherpet, for certainly I would not have seen it without you) for the Dean Radin link. Fascinating musings on the subject of entanglement that I will consider for some time. Now I know why my attention got entangled in this thread, since I hardly ever post. [;)]

SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 4:01:54 AM)
firmobeisance: You are most welcome. Glad you enjoyed it. Aswad: Touche' ! - Susan

tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 4:04:19 AM)
firmobeisance, No probs, I just hope you saw all the thread and all the links and references.

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