RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (Full Version)

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velvetears -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:00:27 PM)

That i get but what about physics, and other scientific explanations one can use to explain away phenomena? 




tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:01:14 PM)

Yep. Psychology explains a lot more psychic phenomena than supernatural powers.
And it is fear which makes people grab at the old answers, fear of not knowing, and therefore not being able to control. Our knowledge doesn't come from those people, it comes from the ones who are curious, the ones who look for answers that work instead of answer that are easy.




CuriousLord -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:11:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

That i get but what about physics, and other scientific explanations one can use to explain away phenomena?


Are you asking for scientific explanations for psychic phenominia outside of the psycological explanation?




velvetears -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:26:57 PM)

No just wondering why he left that out.




CuriousLord -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:29:40 PM)

Ah, probably because no such plausible theories exist.




chellekitty -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:30:39 PM)

perhaps he was the second gunman on the grass knoll




CuriousLord -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:33:26 PM)

He's secretly an alien, trying to stir things up with the psychics so that they forsake their powers in deseperate, never detecting the plot of conquest that the alien spies are constantly thinking of.  (Dear Karana, if anyone actually believes that, I'm going to track them down and beat them with a Physics book until they're intimately aware of the intertia equations that could be used to describe the text book's movement.)




SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:36:21 PM)

thserpet: Why can't you just content yourself with believing what you want - instead of trying to change anyone else'e beliefs? I didn't notice from the start, even attempting to be polite to the OP, or anyone else who differed with you. I didn't think any poster actually ridiculed you - but you have repeatedly ridiculed any poster who is simply choosing what they want to believe, if it differs with your beliefs.

I am curious why this is? Also, why you seem to think you have some  "mission" to help anyone "see the light" as far as believing in psychic phenomena? It really is not necessary, IMO - people are capable of making up their own minds on this issue without your explicit "help".

- Susan  




CuriousLord -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:44:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
thserpet: Why can't you just content yourself with believing what you want - instead of trying to change anyone else'e beliefs? I didn't notice from the start, even attempting to be polite to the OP, or anyone else who differed with you. I didn't think any poster actually ridiculed you - but you have repeatedly ridiculed any poster who is simply choosing what they want to believe, if it differs with your beliefs.

I am curious why this is? Also, why you seem to think you have some  "mission" to help anyone "see the light" as far as believing in psychic phenomena? It really is not necessary, IMO - people are capable of making up their own minds on this issue without your explicit "help".


Why do you think people debate anything?  Or are superstitions an exception, not to be brought up?

A couple of posts one night on a message board on the Internet.  Some "mission".




SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:49:03 PM)

I'd be more inclined to believe it was a debate if he:

1) Hadn't been very consistently rude and 2) Had cited more evidence vs. his personal opinion.

Why bother to discuss it?

In a debate someone might have a POV, but it's clear they are open to changing their POV. That certainly is not the case here.

It's not a debate - it's just a chance for him to be incredibly rude to other people and make fun of their beliefs. How admirable.

I noticed the OP disappeared a long time ago - I know it was a topic that was almost guaranteed to cause friction or at least strong discussion - however, it could have been a thread about real pyschic phenomena. Thanks to tsherpet - it instead became 14 pages of defending a belief in any of those things to begin with, instead of actually discussing any occurrences of them, really.

I noticed some people answering the Op's question anyway (good for them). But 85% of this thread was spent defending the ability to discuss the topic - not actually discussing the topic. And it's his fault. Personally, I think that's a shame.

Hope if he ever tries to start a thread, someone comes along and just ruins it fromthe very first page. Maybe then he'll get to see how it feels.


That being said, I am not surprised (particularly) that it happened. it is "that kind of topic".  It can be hard for anyone to talk about it ( as several people mentioned) when they thnk they are just ging to be ridiculed. His comments just sucked all of the air out of the room, like a vacuum cleaner, IMO.

I am not psychic, and have no personal experiences to relate - but other people might.

- Susan 




CuriousLord -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 10:55:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I'd be more inclined to believe it was a debate if he:

1) hadn't been very consistently rude
You expect everyone to account for the senstive feelings of the mad?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
and 2) Had cited more evidence vs. his personal opinion.
The evidence is the lack of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Why bother to discuss it?
Typically interest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
In a debate someone might have a POV, but it's clear they are open to changing their POV. That certainly is not the case here.
I'm getting the feeling that this may be the case with you, Susan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
It's not a debate - it's just a chance for him to be incredibly rude to other people and make fun of their beliefs. How admirable.
I haven't read over everything he's written.  My apologies if I'm defending rudeness which I haven't seen yet.  Still, I've just now skimmed a couple of posts and detect no such rudeness.




SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 11:01:19 PM)

It is an interesting topic. But how interesting can it really be if you dont believe in it? Which particlar aspect of psychic phenomena are you hoping to discuss, I am wondering?

I am not mad at you - I am just confused. I think the OP was hoping for a real discussion - and there are probably (my guess) some with real experiences to offer re: the topic that hesitated, due to his rudeness. I know some might think that's their problem - and I agree - but I still think it's kind of a shame.

Some people do believe in this kind of thing - no matter how stupid anyone else wants to think it is. I don't make fun  of other people's hobbies - no matter how weird I think they are. I don't like football - but  don't make fun of people who do.


Sorry to rant. I am not mad - just disappointed in general. I think the OP maybe knew the reaction she might encounter - but she posted anyway. But it is such an intriguing topic - and nobody really did discuss it (that much anyway)- they were too busy having to defend their right to discuss it.

I was kind of looking forward to reading a thread where more people got to talk about their psychic experiences - but I am pretty sure some of them were scared away. I don't have any, or I'd cite some.  

End of rant. Sorry. It's no biggie, I can just go read a book, instead.

-Susan




CuriousLord -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 11:26:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
It is an interesting topic. But how interesting can it really be if you dont believe in it? Which particlar aspect of psychic phenomena are you hoping to discuss, I am wondering?
Psycology.  This sort of thing is utter madness!  How is it that people bring themselves to believe in something so obviously delussional?  Not that it's polite to say in such a discussion, but it's a large point of curiousity, at least for me.  Examining the reasonings that people try to use for such things is fascinating.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I am not mad at you - I am just confused. I think the OP was hoping for a real discussion - and there are probably (my guess) some with real experiences to offer re: the topic that hesitated, due to his rudeness. I know some might think that's their problem - and I agree - but I still think it's kind of a shame.
She seemed to be attempting two things: to delcare herself a psychic and a discussion on the feelings of such individuals.  Understanding the source to feelings is important to understanding them.

In all honesty, if I had to guess, she likely feels impotent, trying to assign herself some mystical responsiblity.  I'm not entirely sure if embracing the idea that she can magically sense others or the future is a healthy way of going about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Some people do believe in this kind of thing - no matter how stupid anyone else wants to think it is. I don't make fun  of other people's hobbies - no matter how weird I think they are. I don't like football - but  don't make fun of people who do.
Susan, football players are playing a sport, not convinced that they can see the future, hear voices from people that died long ago, or alter reality at a distance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Sorry to rant. I am not mad - just disappointed in general. I think the OP maybe knew the reaction she might encounter - but she posted anyway. But it is such an intriguing topic - and nobody really did discuss it (that much anyway)- they were too busy having to defend their right to discuss it.
We're discussing it. The psychology is interesting, isn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I was kind of looking forward to reading a thread where more people got to talk about their psychic experiences - but I am pretty sure some of them were scared away. I don't have any, or I'd cite some.
They could still cite them.  I mean, yeah, they'd look crazier by contrast with scientists in a conversation than if they discussed it among others who believe the same thing (like if a bunch of people who think that they're Elvis or abducted by UFO's got together with no one else around).  But they're still welcome to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
End of rant. Sorry. It's no biggie, I can just go read a book, instead.
I sympathize.  I'm truly sorry if you were hoping for something more appealing to your interests.

Personally, part of my reason for posting in such threads is that I despise the ignorance being reinforced in humanity.  I hope our race to grow.  The least I can do is point out some reason a message board when an appropriate subject comes up, you know?

Hell, I'd probably post threads on Physics and Calculus if I thought anyone would actually learn from them.




SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 11:36:49 PM)

Sorry for the rant. Well okay, the psychology is interesting, yes. I am not surprised this topic took the turn it did - there are plenty of people who think it has zero credibility. I have an interest in it mostly because it hasn't been able to be altogether proven. Not to de-bunk it, but because I think there are dimensions out there we simply cannot perceive, and that things happen and nobody knows why.

There are supposedily many more than 4 dimensions. And because humans can only perceive 4 (but more can be proven to exist, at least theorectically, I've heard there may be as many as 12,(and I read this in Scientific American, btw, not some Pyschic newsletter) - I am pretty sure that "proof" in the sense some are hoping for isn't going to be happening anytime soon. 

But I do think that some people have had experiences that simply cannot be explained away by "science as we mostly know it"
But the people who sometimes report these things do seem lucid and coherent - some might be raving maniacs, but some appear to be definitely not.

I wish I had more of these experiences of my own to report, but I fear I am not very psychic. But I am still kind of interested in the reports of those who maybe are - anyway, thanks for listening to my rant. I am going to see if I can find some info re: psychic phemoena on the Internet (not that the intenet has much crdibility overall, as a source,but some sources are better than others as far as that goes).

In the mean-time, maybe someone will write in about their own (as some already have done).

- Susan  




SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 11:48:56 PM)

I thought this was kind of interesting. It is a book about to be (re) published called '"Entangled Minds" - kind of a take-off on the "100th  Monkey Syndrome" (where a behavior or knowledge one person gains, is also gained at the same time (or soon after) by people either far away or nearby - sometimes by entire communities.

From a psychology stand-point, I thought it was kind of interesting - and it does relate IMO to the topic: Anyway, I am not here to  debate if it's real or not, it is just my contribution to the thread. You have to scroll down a bit to get to the actual text.

Maybe humans are all just cells in God's gigantic brain, or something - and the Earth is piece of tissue in that brain? To me, that kind of us what this book seems to be saying (of course, that depends on your POV). 

- Susan

[image]http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/spacer.gif[/image]
Entangled Minds

Now in its 6th printing (May 2007)
Romanian, Japanese and Portuguese translations are underway

Preface
If you do not get schwindlig [dizzy] sometimes when you think about these things then you have not really understood it [quantum theory]. - Neils Bohr

One of the most surprising discoveries of modern physics is that objects aren't as separate as they may seem. When you drill down into the core of even the most solid-looking material, separateness dissolves. All that remains, like the smile of the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland, are relationships extending curiously throughout space and time. These connections were predicted by quantum theory and were called "spooky action at a distance" by Albert Einstein. One of the founders of quantum theory, Erwin Schrödinger, dubbed this peculiarity entanglement, saying "I would not call that one but rather the characteristic trait of quantum mechanics."
 
The deeper reality suggested by the existence of entanglement is so unlike the world of everyday experience that until recently, many physicists believed it was interesting only for abstract theoretical reasons. They accepted that the microscopic world of elementary particles could become curiously entangled, but those entangled states were assumed to be fleeting and have no practical consequences for the world as we experience it. That view is rapidly changing.
 
Scientists are now finding that there are ways in which the effects of microscopic entanglements "scale up" into our macroscopic world. Entangled connections between carefully prepared atomic-sized objects can persist over many miles. There are theoretical descriptions showing how tasks can be accomplished by entangled groups without the members of the group communicating with each other in any conventional way.
 
Some scientists suggest that the remarkable degree of coherence displayed in living systems might depend in some fundamental way on quantum effects like entanglement. Others suggest that conscious awareness is caused or related in some important way to entangled particles in the brain. Some even propose that the entire universe is a single, self-entangled object.
 
What if these speculations are correct? What would human experience be like in such an interconnected universe? Would we occasionally have numinous feelings of connectedness with loved ones at a distance? Would such experiences evoke a feeling of awe that there's more to reality than common sense implies? Could "entangled minds" result in the experience of your hearing the telephone ring and somehow knowing - instantly - who's calling?
 
 If we did have such experiences, could they be due to real information that somehow bypassed the usual sensory channels, or are such reports mere delusions? Can psychic or "psi" experiences be studied by science, or are they beyond the reach of rational understanding?
These are the questions explored in this book. In a nutshell, we'll find that there's substantial experimental evidence indicating that some psi experiences are genuine. We'll also learn that one reason for persistent scientific skepticism about psi is due to outdated assumptions about the nature of reality.
 
For centuries, scientists assumed that everything can be explained by mechanisms analogous to clockworks. But over the course of the 20th century, we've learned that this common sense assumption is wrong. When the fabric of reality is examined very closely, nothing resembling clockworks can be found. Instead, reality is woven from strange, "holistic" threads that aren't located precisely in space or time. Tug on a dangling loose end from this fabric of reality, and the whole cloth twitches, instantly, throughout all space and time.
Science is at the very earliest stages of understanding entanglement, and there is much yet to learn. But what we've seen so far provides a new way of thinking about psi. No longer are psi experiences regarded as rare human talents, divine gifts, or "powers" that magically transcend ordinary physical boundaries.
 
Instead, psi becomes an unavoidable consequence of living in an interconnected, entangled physical reality. Psi is reframed from a bizarre anomaly that doesn't fit into the normal world - and hence labeled paranormal - into a natural phenomenon of physics.
 
The idea of the universe as an interconnected whole is not new; for millennia it's been one of the core assumptions of Eastern philosophies. What is new is that Western science is slowly beginning to realize that some elements of that ancient lore might be correct. Of course, adopting a new ontology is not to be taken lightly. When it comes to serious topics like the nature of reality, it's sensible to adopt the conservative maxim, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." So we're obliged to carefully examine whether psi is a real phenomenon. If the conclusion is positive, then one or more of our previous assumptions may be broken and we'll need to come up with alternatives.
 
As we explore the concept of psi as "entangled minds," we'll consider examples of psi experiences in life and lab, we'll review the origins of psi research, we'll explore the results of thousands of controlled laboratory tests, and we'll debunk skeptical myths about psi. Then we'll explore the fabric of reality as revealed by modern physics and see why it's becoming increasingly relevant to understanding why and how psi exists. At the end, we'll find that the 19th century English poet, Francis Thompson, may have said it best:

All things by immortal power,
Near and Far
Hiddenly
To each other linked are,
That thou canst not stir a flower
Without troubling of a star.



[Mod Note:  images removed]






MstrssScarlet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 11:51:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

It is an interesting topic. But how interesting can it really be if you dont believe in it? Which particlar aspect of psychic phenomena are you hoping to discuss, I am wondering?

I am not mad at you - I am just confused. I think the OP was hoping for a real discussion - and there are probably (my guess) some with real experiences to offer re: the topic that hesitated, due to his rudeness. I know some might think that's their problem - and I agree - but I still think it's kind of a shame.

Some people do believe in this kind of thing - no matter how stupid anyone else wants to think it is. I don't make fun  of other people's hobbies - no matter how weird I think they are. I don't like football - but  don't make fun of people who do.


Sorry to rant. I am not mad - just disappointed in general. I think the OP maybe knew the reaction she might encounter - but she posted anyway. But it is such an intriguing topic - and nobody really did discuss it (that much anyway)- they were too busy having to defend their right to discuss it.

I was kind of looking forward to reading a thread where more people got to talk about their psychic experiences - but I am pretty sure some of them were scared away. I don't have any, or I'd cite some.  

End of rant. Sorry. It's no biggie, I can just go read a book, instead.

-Susan


I've done my best to skim over the last 14 pages and I would tend to agree with you Susan.  Actually, I do have some info to share that you might find interesting.  My husband 'sees' entities all the time.  He doesn't usually share this with anyone except me.  In our last house, he began seeing a woman in our bedroom and the kitchen, especially after we started remodeling the house.  He also saw her on the stairs at times.  The dog would growl or prick his ears up and stare in her direction whenever she showed up.  She never bothered me, but I didn't WANT to see her.  I told our kids (his and mine both from a previous marriage) after we moved out of the house about what he saw.  I told them separately.  They both immediately shouted "I knew it!".  They had both had experiences in the same areas my husband talked about.  They weren't sure exactly what was going on at the time, but something kept 'spooking' them.  Voices, unexplained noises, lights going off and on, and sometimes just a feeling that someone was watching them.
He will also sometimes see dark shadows darting in, out, and around people or places.  One time he saw them at a large outdoor party at a friend's house.  There were people in the garage and outside as well.  It ran late into the evening, well past dark outside.  He saw them but didn't mention it until we left.  He told me who they were around and when.
I believe he said his mother was the same way.  I always thought he made a great dominant because he can read people so well, so I suppose he's empathic as well.  He can size people up after one short conversation and he's always right on the money.  Sometimes it will take a while for the things he senses in a person to show up, but he feels it right away.
He knows how I feel and never tells me anything until he knows it won't scare me.  I believe he truly has abilities to see things that others can't.
Mistress Scarlet




SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:02:34 AM)

Thank you very much for that post MstrssScarlet - it was very interesting to read, IMO. It must be fascinating to be able to be able to do that (although I suppose ther are times it might be uncomfortable as well). I appreciated the chance to be able to read about it.

- Susan 




tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:11:45 AM)

"Why can't you just content yourself with believing what you want "

It has nothing to do with want I want to believe. I am simply rationally discussing psychic phenomena. There is no belief on my part.

"I didn't notice from the start, even attempting to be polite to the OP, or anyone else who differed with you. "

Well I'm not trying to be polite or tell people what they want to hear. But I'm not trying to attack anyone either. I am simply speaking to what we do know.

"but you have repeatedly ridiculed any poster who is simply choosing what they want to believe, if it differs with your beliefs. "

I'm not ridiculing anyone, I am trying to have a rational discussion. And it has nothing to do with my beliefs, it is about psychics and their beliefs, and the fact no psychic has ever lived up to their own claims.

"Also, why you seem to think you have some  "mission" to help anyone "see the light" as far as believing in psychic phenomena?"

Why not share what I know?

"IMO - people are capable of making up their own minds on this issue without your explicit "help". "

Sure, but people can also make up their own minds with more information. At least one person has been helped by my actions with the 10% myth. While you might not like it, I will post as I see fit.

"Hadn't been very consistently rude "

So rational discussion of your beliefs is rude is it?

"Had cited more evidence vs. his personal opinion."

I've cited quite a bit of evidence, and why is my opinion less valid than yours?

"In a debate someone might have a POV, but it's clear they are open to changing their POV. That certainly is not the case here. "

I am open to changing my point of view, but not on someones personal anecdotes. It will require much more than that for psychic abilities to be thought of as real.

"however, it could have been a thread about real pyschic phenomena. Thanks to tsherpet - it instead became 14 pages of defending a belief in any of those things to begin with, instead of actually discussing any occurrences of them, really. "

I have discussed those who have claimed to be psychic. I've provided both the answer to the 10% myth and the reason behind the failure of the remote viewing program. And the unclaimed money from sceptic societies.

"But 85% of this thread was spent defending the ability to discuss the topic - not actually discussing the topic."

I am discussing the topic, I'm just not a believer. It is a shame that your beliefs are so fragile they cannot stand a reasoned discussion.

"Hope if he ever tries to start a thread, someone comes along and just ruins it fromthe very first page. Maybe then he'll get to see how it feels. "

Well it would depend if someone ruined with facts or out of spite.

"It can be hard for anyone to talk about it ( as several people mentioned) when they thnk they are just ging to be ridiculed"

Actually it is hard for psychics to talk about it when epolpe ask questions instead of just saying "ooh isn't that special".

"It is an interesting topic. But how interesting can it really be if you dont believe in it? Which particlar aspect of psychic phenomena are you hoping to discuss, I am wondering?"

It is interesting understanding how the vrain actually works, peoples motivation and perception. It is interesting how people defend beliefs they cannot prove and do not understand. It is interesting on so amny levels.

"I think the OP was hoping for a real discussion "

That is what has happened, a real discussion instead of just personal anecdotes of dubious integrity.

"Some people do believe in this kind of thing - no matter how stupid anyone else wants to think it is."

And the real reasons behind those beliefs are very interesting. Also what is stupid is amking claims and not living up to them. No psychic has ever been able to prove their powers exist.

"But it is such an intriguing topic - and nobody really did discuss it "

The reality is much more intriging than the old fairytales, and people did discuss it, just not the way you wanted it done. You wanted speaches and sermons about psychic powers, not a discussion.

"there are plenty of people who think it has zero credibility. "

No, they don't think it has zero credibility. The failure of psychics to live up to their own hype gives it zero credibility.

"But I do think that some people have had experiences that simply cannot be explained away by "science as we mostly know it""

You are missing the point. The experience don't exist to begin with, which is why every psychic who has ever tried to prove themselves has failed. It's in the mind of believers, not our shared reality.

"I am going to see if I can find some info re: psychic phemoena on the Internet "

Try the sceptic organisations. Don't kjust go to psychic sites and get excited by their creative writing.




SusanofO -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:15:19 AM)

tsherpet: I don't have much really to say. I did manage to just post what I thought was a mildly interesting piece of info that (IMO) relates to the topic. I rather enjoyed Mstrss Scarlet's recent contribution also.

- Susan 




tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/8/2007 12:15:41 AM)

"My husband 'sees' entities all the time.  He doesn't usually share this with anyone except me."

Why not? Why are psychics so keen to keep it to themselves and not gain further understanding of their powers? Why don't they want to earn credibility for all those like them? Why don't they want to advance the knowledge of humanity?




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