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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/26/2005 9:35:01 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		On the topic of proof, I seem to recall that there was a major concern with the 1969 moon landing. As I recall it, and someone please correct me if my memory is at odds with the facts, the calculated amount of dust on the moon should have been something over 3' deep, given the estimated age of the universe and the measured amount of stellar matter that drifts through the solar system. The actual depth is more consistent with a 10K year-old solar system.
Timothy

(in reply to FirmFare)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/26/2005 10:05:32 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, the "religious point of view" hasn't done a very good job of explaining what that reason is. We've gone through a lot of candidates, and I think I've shown why they're all irrational. If you have a reason that we haven't considered, I'd love to hear it.

Religious explanations of things like disasters--especially Protestant ones--tend to view disasters from the point of view of survivors, and forget the fact that millions of people had to die. Protestants are very good at finding divine intent in things that benefit themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

As has already been stated upthread, you're basic assumption, that their lives ended for no reason and were therefore wasted, is at odds with some religious points of view. I don't expect you to change your feelings on the matter, but for the purpose of debate it must be recognized as a point of contention.
Timothy



< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/26/2005 10:10:38 PM >

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/26/2005 10:07:06 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Right, modern astrophysics is utterly wrong about things like the age of the solar system.

Where do you get this stuff?

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

On the topic of proof, I seem to recall that there was a major concern with the 1969 moon landing. As I recall it, and someone please correct me if my memory is at odds with the facts, the calculated amount of dust on the moon should have been something over 3' deep, given the estimated age of the universe and the measured amount of stellar matter that drifts through the solar system. The actual depth is more consistent with a 10K year-old solar system.


(in reply to domtimothy46176)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/27/2005 10:26:46 AM   
testlimit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If the Bible is the "Word of God" and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is a statement of fact as God's commandment; why is it that many "Act's of God" such as earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc; kill?




Very simply....that's not the commandment. That's a mistranslation of the commandment. It's closer to Thou Shalt not Commit Murder...which is a little different than simply killing. Also "Act of God" is a label man applies. It's not actually God reaching down and shaking the Earth, blowing up a tornado/hurricane, etc. As to why those things happen at all....they maintain certain balances. the shifting mantle and plates have something to do with, well a bunch of things that keep us living but one is, they keep us from floating off into space. The core moves generating part of the gravity equation and also keeping the Earth on it's rotation and revolution, the movement requires a certain degree of fluidity as well as generates certain side effects like shifting plates. The tornados and Hurricanes are weather patterns and pressure systems "correcting" themselves (that's not really accurate but I didn't too real well in meterology).

God gave us intelligence and imagination to learn....Part of learning is having obsticles to overcome. Learning to live within the natural order of things rather than in spite of it is one of the obsticles.

EDIT: pretty much everything else i had here was said, and much more articulatly than I did, previously in this thread.

< Message edited by testlimit -- 7/27/2005 10:51:10 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/27/2005 11:59:21 AM   
pinkpleasures


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i cannot resist. i know i should...but temptation is too great...LOL.

i care not whether the great questions of evolution vs Genusis are resolved to E/everyone's satisfaction. i have KNOWN God in my life; He has literally lifted me from evil people and made me safe....many, many times. So i am contented without knowing IT All.

pinkpleasures

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 9:25:25 AM   
softnlacy


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline 		My two cents for what it is worth.

I have this belief that God gave us only one commandment. That is to love one another. We, as humans, just don't seem to know how to get that right. So, in helping us, He gave us 10. Like spoon feeding us. He said this is what you do or not do to achieve what I really want you to do. Love one another.

Us humans are thick headed. We still don't get it. We have the free will of choice and the other fundamental emotion keeps arising. We do things based on fear. Our sinfulness are those selfish, mean acts based on fear.

I do not pretend to know the answers. I still keep seeking.

Have a greatful day!

softnlacy


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 6:03:36 PM   
NakisisaX


Posts: 57
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Status: offline 		The bible is the greatest piece of fiction ever, designed to build religious self esteem to a specified group of people while controlling another to build empires and justify the violence using that book.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 8:12:31 PM   
misteria


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Joined: 7/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If the Bible is the "Word of God" and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is a statement of fact as God's commandment; why is it that many "Act's of God" such as earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc; kill?



... The bible is the INSPIRED Word of God, not the " word of God". The term " Act of God" is not biblical in origin. It is a legal term.

"An act which are outside human control.

Origin

Originated in legal or insurance circles to denote acts which aren't the responsibility of any individual and therefore uninsurable. "


Now that certainly doesn't clear up the OP's question, I know.

I don't think I can satisfactorily answer his/her or many others' questions regarding God's existance or why natural disasters occur. I do wonder however, if the same people who " blame" God for things like Tsunamis and flood's, also credit him with the beauty in the sunset you saw the other day, or the wonderful smells of walking thru the woods on a crisp autumn day, or the awe inspiring sight of trees glistening with ice covered branches as the sun shines thru them? If "you" hold God or any diety responsible for the ugliness, it follows "you" will also hold him responsible for all the wonderous things.

It's hard to give concrete reasoning/evidence to justify one's faith.. when by definition Faith is not a concrete concept. It is a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

A Unitarian minister addressed this very subject right after the Tsunami.. probably one of the best sermons on How a loving God can allow this < the Tsunami> to happen.. but in the end... there is not a tangible answer, it's faith.

http://www.uua.org/news/2004/041230_church.html


For me.. God exists, because my faith exists. For those who don't share my belief... so be it.... I understand that there will be no convincing "you" , and there are no questions I can think of " you" can pose that will make one who believes, not believe.


Good topic Mercnbeth, I have enjoyed the theological debate on both sides.




misteria

I have used the word " you" collectively, not to single out any one poster.

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 8:40:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You can't hold God responsible for anything if you don't believe he exists. It's just so much easier--you don't have to try to explain the divine intent of the universe, and you don't have to try to pretend that tsunamis are good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misteria

I don't think I can satisfactorily answer his/her or many others' questions regarding God's existance or why natural disasters occur. I do wonder however, if the same people who " blame" God for things like Tsunamis and flood's, also credit him with the beauty in the sunset you saw the other day, or the wonderful smells of walking thru the woods on a crisp autumn day, or the awe inspiring sight of trees glistening with ice covered branches as the sun shines thru them? If "you" hold God or any diety responsible for the ugliness, it follows "you" will also hold him responsible for all the wonderous things.

(in reply to misteria)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 8:57:03 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Dont know if its been said before. 11 pages is alot to read, only made it through 5. Some of it just silly.

Because if one believes in God and all that jazz, then there must be evil. With pretty much everything there is an excat opposite. You can not have good with out evil. There is no up with out down. (you get the point hopefully)

The devil isnt under God's Command. He is under his own. And if anyone doesnt already know, there is a battle for souls going on. We were given the choice and god doesnt want us, unless we want him. Ever forced some one else to be your friend? Well God isnt doing it either.

And then

i firmly believe everything happens for a reason. You may not know it, like it, or understand it, but its there. Try not looking at temporary gratification, but long term. i believe every person in your life is there for a reason, even a stepping stone to get to the destination.

Is there such thing as fate? Or is it more like a "goal". Fate is a tricky thing

if i tell you that before i moved to orlando florida, i had thought to move to DC or TX but decided to move to central florida (a stepping stone that lead my choice) and i met Master in my dreams before i met him in life? that suprisingly, the person my picky little self had been looking for, for 7 years was in central florida?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 9:05:41 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		So if you met your master in Florida even though you were planning to move to DC or TX, that proves that everything happens for a reason and all the people who died in the tsunami must have died for a reason too.

That's not just bad logic. It's impiety.

I think I mentioned--somewhere in those six pages you didn't read--that people always seem to find a divine purpose in things that benefit THEM.

(in reply to RiotGirl)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 9:46:44 PM   
misteria


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Joined: 7/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You can't hold God responsible for anything if you don't believe he exists. It's just so much easier--you don't have to try to explain the divine intent of the universe, and you don't have to try to pretend that tsunamis are good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misteria

I don't think I can satisfactorily answer his/her or many others' questions regarding God's existance or why natural disasters occur. I do wonder however, if the same people who " blame" God for things like Tsunamis and flood's, also credit him with the beauty in the sunset you saw the other day, or the wonderful smells of walking thru the woods on a crisp autumn day, or the awe inspiring sight of trees glistening with ice covered branches as the sun shines thru them? If "you" hold God or any diety responsible for the ugliness, it follows "you" will also hold him responsible for all the wonderous things.




I agree LnM, one cannot hold "Him" responsible if one does not believe "He" exists.. that was the point. IE: why are people who " don't believe" always holding up negatives to be explianed vs. positives. Neither can be explained satisfactorily to one who doesn't believe. Neither party being greater or lesser..

With all due respect.... I don't believe I said, insinuated or alluded to Tsunamis being "good" or any other such nonsense. I also do not believe that because one "believes in God" that automatically assumes that they believe horrific things are justifiable in the name of "God's will". No more than I think if someone accidentaly drops a pot of boiling water on me, that it was "God's will" that I be burned and disfigured.

Tragedies are just that.. tragedies. I for one, do not have to incorporate God into every occurance in life, simply because I cannot explain or understand why ugly things happen. Sometimes the honest answer is..... I/we just don't know why.


misteria


< Message edited by misteria -- 8/7/2005 9:49:16 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/7/2005 10:43:52 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, but other people did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misteria

I don't believe I said, insinuated or alluded to Tsunamis being "good" or any other such nonsense.


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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/8/2005 9:03:04 AM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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I don't believe tsunamis are good, but they arent inherently bad either - they are however an experience.

Its how one deals with it, determines on its effect.
And those that die, well - we have no idea what it meant to them - and we never will. But you cant blame God or anyone else for anything that is an experience. The only person to centre on is oneself and how one deals with it. To centre on the now and see what can be learnt. At least, that is what I see.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/8/2005 9:35:56 AM   
subcheryl


Posts: 280
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline 		I beleive in God, I know Him to be a loving God, and I trust Him to do what I need when the time is right, does that mean that I understand everything that happens whether good or bad, no it doesn't.
In the beginning God did not intend for us to live like this, He created a beautiful garden with everything that we need to flourish and grow, because of choices, man and woman where sent from that paradise, to toil, to mourn, to struggle through life.
Sylvia Browne explained things better for me to understand some of my own unanswered questions. God is both male and female, the male essence of him is the part that more or less keeps thing connected but really can't experience or feel, the female part of him experiences and feels and relates back to the male part, we are fragmented parts of that God head, we make life maps before we come, with help from the angels that make up a council on the other side, and our spirit guides we make choices of what we are going to experience for God on this side, we choose the type of families that we are born to, our life themes, the area of work we are going to do, and our exit points, the time we choose to return to the other side, we have 2-3 of these depending how our lives pan out as we experience it here on this side, these exit points are different for all of us but part of the experiencing for God, we choose it, we may not like it once we get here, but it works to spiritually make us stronger and grow, and we know, even if it is in the unconcious mind, that we are doing it for God's experiencing. Some of us, have life really hard, but others don't appear to, but perhaps for those who seem to have life so easy their experiencing is the patience to wait for things, the frustration of dealing with someone who perhaps doesn't get an idea that they are trying to convey, dealing with frustration that life doesn't move as fast as they want. Also our experiences in some form or another touches on the experiences of someone else, sometimes without them or yourself even knowing that it happened. People come into out lives, some for very short pds of time and some for a life time, and each are equally important for one reason or another. Sorry for the rant but thought would share how I feel about why bad things seem to happen to good people and why natural disaters happen and innocent people seem to get hurt, in the way that Sylvia explains it, it seems somewhat logical and I can understand it that way. you may understand or you might not, but that is ok too. after all it is just another experience in life.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/8/2005 9:50:04 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You know, we've been over this. Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good god allow human beings to fuck up his creation? How is it that human beings are even CAPABLE of fucking up his creation? And even if this whole scenario is true, why should innocent people die in tsumanis today because of bad choices that OTHER PEOPLE made? Isn't that unjust--and contrary to the principles of the Bible?

I have already asked these questions on this very thread. Affirming what you believe is fine, but other people have already said the exact same thing. The problem isn't that atheists don't know what Christians believe; the problem is that we don't see how Christians can believe what they believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subcheryl

In the beginning God did not intend for us to live like this, He created a beautiful garden with everything that we need to flourish and grow, because of choices, man and woman where sent from that paradise, to toil, to mourn, to struggle through life.



< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 8/8/2005 9:52:14 AM >

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/8/2005 10:56:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

The devil isnt under God's Command. He is under his own


If you believe this quote you don't believe there is a god. By the implied name definition there can be no other that is not under his command. Simplistic, but essentially my point in starting this thread.

It is man who invented the "yin/yang" concept to try to rationalize the inconsistencies of the concept. "A battle for souls."? The stories in the bible, such as the war between satan and god and the subsequent "casting out" of heaven; would fit well into the Brothers Grimm fairy tails. But someone decided that we should make a religion out of one book, and children's stories out of the other. Read in their original form, the Grimm tails are full of the same life "lessons" and also just as scary and guilt ridden as the bible.

Understand that religion is necessary for only one reason. The vast majority of people would have no morality without consequence. There are not enough police to enforce morality. Did you know that statically, excluding murders of family, friends, or acquaintances, there are more un-solved murders than solved murders? The CSI and Law & Order shows are not reality. Morality has to be ingrained into a society. Morality has to be a reflex behavior for a large proportion or society as we know it will crumble. That is the purpose religion serves. If you don't behave, if you don't 'live right', you may not be caught, you may not be punished, but ultimately there is this 'final' judgment by a god and you will suffer repercussions. There is reflex morality all around us. Ever drive down a remote county road at 3:00 AM where you can see 1 mile is all directions and stop at a red traffic light? That's reflex morality, the religion of the "stop at the red light".

Begin to question and the whole thing falls apart. Start to question and the cracks become deeper. Point out the inconsistencies, and maybe you start to just slow down at the red light and go through it. I think that's what is occurring in society today. I feel soon, there will be more and more people who just blow through a LOT of society's "red lights".



< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/8/2005 12:08:45 PM >

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/8/2005 11:56:04 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
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From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl


The devil isnt under God's Command. He is under his own. And if anyone doesnt already know, there is a battle for souls going on. We were given the choice and god doesnt want us, unless we want him. Ever forced some one else to be your friend? Well God isnt doing it either.


But if god is omnipotent then the devil MUST be under god's command.

That is, if god is the creator of, and in charge of -everything- then the devil -must- be subordinant to god, otherwise the devil is greater than god and god is no longer the ultimate being in the universe.

_____________________________

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/8/2005 12:44:22 PM   
onceburned


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
But if god is omnipotent then the devil MUST be under god's command.


This might be true in some religions or philosophies, but according to Christianity God chooses to voluntarily restrict his power in two important ways: he allows free will and he binds himself to his own promises.

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/8/2005 1:01:31 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
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From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
But if god is omnipotent then the devil MUST be under god's command.


This might be true in some religions or philosophies, but according to Christianity God chooses to voluntarily restrict his power in two important ways: he allows free will and he binds himself to his own promises.


Yes, but that doesn't deal with either evil not of human creation nor the devil. Also, god is still -able- to control it, but has chosen not to.

If a human were to chose not to stop pain and suffering, that human would be called an evil person. Why is it different for god who is choosing to allow suffering on a much greater scale.

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