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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 3:51:33 AM

darkinshadows

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LaM - I have to ask - who ever told you that God is omnibenevolent? Where do you get that from? Because I keep seeing that statement and it just doesn't ring true for christianity(and thats what this thread has kinda turned into - not religion as such, but God)Omni benevolence just isn't in Christian teachings. Nor Catholic. Nor muslim. Nor Jewish. Not even in humanity.

God is not benevolent. Benevolency implies that something is all forgiving and all giving. And God isn't that.
Take away the omnibenevolence - because with it, a person can't see past it. It's like some huge wall that shouldn't really be there. God is everywhere and everything, but He isn't going to be benevolent to those that don't want it and can't accept it.

God isn't omnibenevolent and until you can understand that, nothing is going to make sense to you.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 161

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 4:33:35 AM

kisshou

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It was ES2 who bought up the omnibenevolent as something that is part of philosophy studies.

FangsandFeet, I respectfully suggest you skimmed through the entire thread because not once has L&M put down anyone else's belief. He has always used clear, logical arguments that have been wonderfully thought provoking.

I personally have tried to stop believing in God but have never been able to. That whole story about the gardener was very interesting, I keep wondering, what would it take.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 162

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 8:20:02 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

FangsandFeet, I respectfully suggest you skimmed through the entire thread because not once has L&M put down anyone else's belief. He has always used clear, logical arguments that have been wonderfully thought provoking.

I concur with kisshou, LaM has shown nothing but respect for other peoples beliefs here - He has thoughtfully considered and placed His Own cards / thoughts 'on the table' without being condecending or using ridicule - and has generously given people who don't have the same ideas as Himself words to contemplate on.

(BTW Kisshou - I think I have finally lost it - what/who is ES2?)

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 163

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 8:45:21 AM

kisshou

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ES2 for emeraldslave2, I saw someone else call her that on a different thread. I love it , reminds me of PS2, like a playstation *lol*

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Post #: 164

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 8:47:28 AM

darkinshadows

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lOl - well DUH to me...

Kewl - ok - thank you - (I prefere x-box btw)

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 165

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 8:52:21 AM

kisshou

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Does believing that God is omnipotent and also believing that there has to be a balance between good and evil for God to survive, conflict?

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Post #: 166

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 9:22:28 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

quote:

Back in Biblical times God came in many ways sent Angels
and people still did not Recieve, or Believe.

Why did he stop?

He didn't.

I have to ask you imtempting - what would you prefere... a dictator and person who would hold your hand all the time, so you would be unable to make your own decisions - taking away every lesson and every piece of self. Or have the choice?

You keep asking and behaving as if God is some benevolent entity.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 167

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 9:24:27 AM

darkinshadows

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I love this btw - just thought I would add - it's a great analagy.

If God is a DJ
Life is a dance floor
Love is the rhythm
You are the music
If God is a DJ
Life is a dance floor
You get what you're given
it's all how you use it

(PINK)

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 168

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 10:20:25 AM

Lordandmaster

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The omnibenevolence of God is one of the cardinal tenets of Christian theology (and the prime monkey wrench in just about every doctrine of theodicy). If you're willing to deny that God is benevolent, that is certainly fine with me; frankly, it makes theism much less absurd.

But if God is not benevolent, he doesn't need my worship. What would YOU call someone who makes a tsunami just because he can?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

LaM - I have to ask - who ever told you that God is omnibenevolent? Where do you get that from? Because I keep seeing that statement and it just doesn't ring true for christianity(and thats what this thread has kinda turned into - not religion as such, but God)Omni benevolence just isn't in Christian teachings. Nor Catholic. Nor muslim. Nor Jewish. Not even in humanity.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/22/2005 10:21:19 AM >

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Post #: 169

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 11:19:43 AM

FangsNfeet

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quote:

Does believing that God is omnipotent and also believing that there has to be a balance between good and evil for God to survive, conflict?

that's what Ying and Yang are all about in Chinese culture and philosphy.

As for Tsunamis's and other devistating disaters, stories of the jeudio/chistian faith do point out three things. 1. They are test. 2. When you fall down a step, keep the faith and you'll come back two steps higher. 3. If every day was a great day then we would all get bored. It's the bad days that allow us to appreciate the good ones.

So yes, there is reason and understanding that this particular god has to do such things to us on earth. It's all about doing bad things in the name of good.

As for Agnositic and Pagan beliefs, I'll refrain from that topic for now. After all, MercNbeth in the first post only refered to the JudioChristain God in its biblical sense pointing out loop holes as a laywer would in a contract or prehaps playing Devils Advocate. So it's really not about our personal beliefs that count but rather what the Jews and Christians are thinking when the 4th commandment comes about vs Gods actions with Natural Disasters and the Arch Angles wrath. What would cause God to give us the rules only for He himself would break? There's our real topic.

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Post #: 170

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 12:18:38 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

what would you prefere... a dictator and person who would hold your hand all the time, so you would be unable to make your own decisions -

~Angel,
My preference would be clarity and simplicity. I don't think there would be a need for much dictatorship if everyone knew a deity existed that published rules, and enforced punishment on behavior contrary to those rules. Speaking sacrilegiously, a Master/Mistress in the lifestyle would make a better deity. Basically they employ the "KISS" principle, and if applied consistently, it works!

In the simplest terms that's what's lacking. As L&M points out the existence of a deity is contrary to any observable evidence. Evolution of man's intellect has paralleled the denigration of church authority (All Churches not just Judeo/Christian). I don't think this is a coincidence. God is anti-logic.

That is really an un-fair statement. Religions have a definition of god that is anti-logic. It's as if first they created the dogma and then they created a deity to fit in the dogma. Add a anti-dogma figure, the "devil", to blame and fear for non-belief and you have a religion. You have a religion as long as the constituency are kept ignorant or in fear of any fact or empirical evidence contrary to the dogma. Even L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology uses the same approach except instead of a "burning bush" they use an "E-Meter". Their "evil" rationalization is defined:

quote:

Why Evil?
Painful experiences and harmful acts in one's prebirth, current, and past lives become imprinted in the reactive mind and lead to irrational behavior. Departures from rational thought and untrue ideas ("aberrations") can result in wrongdoing.

I note one other religion consistency - the Bottom Line. Defined as power or wealth it's a common thread. Although I will note Buddhism as an exception even to this tenant. It's monks beg daily for their sustenance, own nothing, and recruit only by example.

The research and thirst for knowledge continues....

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 171

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 12:22:11 PM

FirmFare

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This is a poem I wrote explaining my experience with God. It seems to me to be relevant to many contributors thoughts. Hope you enjoy.

The Turnaround

Peace I want, for peace I'm searching
Hard to find in this world, but well worth reaching
Peace long lost if indeed I've ever known him
Peace moves not, 'tis I who is lost and losing
Not easily reached nor easily sought
too many years wasted because I thought
'twas to be found without, while 'twas within
My own self doubt, my justifying sin

I knew, I knew and seriously didn't want to
The truth I 'd been rejecting, "God is present!"
He's designed a blessing, it was my dissent
that brought my curses, the rules are for ME,
not for Him, and I couldn't see
through closed eyes, His continued plea
fell on covered ears until my pain
and endless tears convinced me my disdain
was foolishly placed against my God
I turned my face and finally called,
"You're right, You were right all along."

Just Bobb

This is not meant to be offensive, I'm just relaying my experience with God. I really did not want to know my choices were more about what I wanted to believe about God than what I observed of God. I will extrapolate further sometime this weekend.

Bob

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 172

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 12:34:17 PM

Lordandmaster

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I meant to answer this. Yes, the two conflict. If God is omnipotent, he can and will survive under any circumstances. If God requires a certain set of conditions to survive, God is not omnipotent.

Besides, if God is omnipotent, God can and does create all situations. There is no such thing as a situation external to God. So if good and evil are balanced, God caused it to be that way.

That is, of course, if you believe in God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Does believing that God is omnipotent and also believing that there has to be a balance between good and evil for God to survive, conflict?

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 173

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 12:35:39 PM

darkinshadows

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quote:

~Angel,
My preference would be clarity and simplicity.

See, that's what I have. Clarity and simplicity. I do not 'need' anything - I have even followed the example of 'begging for substanance' at one time - so as to understand it. And my only hope would be to set a good example for christianity. I make mistakes and I am terribly stubbon - something I know I must move past to become more of what I am meant to be in Gods eyes. I of course read the bible and follow it's doctrines. But above all - I follow God and His Love. And I know Him and what I am to Him. He speaks to me - advises me and shows me so much more than I could possibly write in a few small paragraphs. His words are simple, yet hold complete meaning. Their clearness as poignant and deep as anything I could ever know. And why? I don't know - thats why I must not and cannot waste a single moment of Him.

Peace and Love

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 7/22/2005 12:36:06 PM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 174

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 12:37:11 PM

Lordandmaster

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Again, I just don't understand how you can speak this way about a disaster that killed millions of people. How can that be a "test"? They're no longer alive. A test isn't a test unless you have a chance of passing it. Maybe the tsunami was a test for YOU. For THEM, it was a disaster that ended their lives for no reason.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

As for Tsunamis's and other devistating disaters, stories of the jeudio/chistian faith do point out three things. 1. They are test. 2. When you fall down a step, keep the faith and you'll come back two steps higher. 3. If every day was a great day then we would all get bored. It's the bad days that allow us to appreciate the good ones.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 175

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 5:09:13 PM

FangsNfeet

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quote:

Again, I just don't understand how you can speak this way about a disaster that killed millions of people. How can that be a "test"? They're no longer alive. A test isn't a test unless you have a chance of passing it. Maybe the tsunami was a test for YOU. For THEM, it was a disaster that ended their lives for no reason.

Well what makes you think it was for no reason? I remember a Musilim channel say that the reason for it was to kill off infideals and as for those of the Ala faith will be rewarded for having the life on earth so quickly interupted.

At anyrate, the tsunami didn't kill every single person. Yes ppl died and left many cultures / tibes and cities in damage, but that's when ppl will stand up and rebuild themselves bigger and stronger. Under the Christian faith, you get knocked down to only get back up stronger. No matter what any of us belive, death is inevitable. What difference does it make of it being a heart attack, lightening bolt, or tidal wave? It's suppose to be Gods dicission when you die. Not your own and not another persons. It's not what God allowed to happen that's important as much as what people do to over come the adversity. In this religion we are also souls that go on. Those who are left behind know that it's not there time and to continue bettering themselves.

Whose to say that the rebuilding could turn the countries into the next Super Powers. Or perhaps the tsunami was to prevent a problem that we ourselves could never see comming?

If there is a GOD or Greater Power, I do agree that he/it has a lot to answer for. You don't have to aggree with any Christian Philosophy at all LAM. Weither you think the ideas or silly or not is up to you. I only hope that you do see where the Christians are comming from. There are many ideas that a argue and disagree with but for the most part I see where they are comming from. As for christians, they keep there faith and expect all to be told when the get to heaven.

I was in forth grade when I first started to learn about ancient Rome/Greek Gods. The teacher told us that they used these Gods and stories to explain how the world works as science just wasn't comprehinsive. So I had to pop the question "Is that what we have our god for, to just explain what we can't figure out?" I didn't get an answer.

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Post #: 176

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/22/2005 5:26:18 PM

Lordandmaster

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You're talking about the living. The dead aren't going to get back up again. Sucks to be them, right?

Anyway, we're going around in circles with this. I know very well where Christians are "coming from."

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Under the Christian faith, you get knocked down to only get back up stronger.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 177

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/23/2005 3:46:28 AM

FangsNfeet

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Well I can't agree with you more LaM about the cirlces quote. As for it sucking for the ones who died, well only time will tell if and we we really find out the truth about God after death and such.

To break away from the circle i'd like to add in just a thing or two on some of the post made in here.

1. there was the Garden of Eden but then there was the rest of the World. We would have to find it, if it really exist for us to go back to. So adam and eve fucked it up or maybe was Gods plan. Either way, after Cane killed Able and was cast to travel the world, He mentions to God about having to deal with the other people. Oh are the "Other people?" They never lived in the Garden nor came from Adam and Eve. Hebrew Mythology dosen't dictate such. Other cultures themselves that tell how the world and ppl came to be also add in meeting "other ppl" that does not come from there heritage.

2. Back to Storms and such. God gave us dommion over the earth. As Jesus and the old testament taught, we controll everything with faith. Jesus along with some of his diciples made the waters calm a time or too. So perhaps the natural disasters aren't Gods fault as much as they might be ours for not using the faith in the Name of God or Jesus to stop these disasters. Perhaps having the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain is metaphorical but Jesus still calmed the storms and walked on water or so the Christian faith says.

3. As for other theories as to why the Tusnami happended, oh knows. Perhaps God needed another person to be swallowed up by a giant fish. Whatever the powers are in this universe are, eggs have to be broken to make an amlet. And if there is a greater power that created us, maybe earth is just another petie dish of a child in a 7th graded project who grew all up and left us on the shelf while he/she/it went to college. As for God, we just aren't going to get his explination for along time if ever. But ppl still have faith and belive every thing is going to be alright since God has the whole world in his hands.

Have any thoughts on this Merc?

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

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Post #: 178

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/23/2005 8:34:20 AM

sub4hire

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quote:

You're talking about the living. The dead aren't going to get back up again. Sucks to be them, right?

The dead are around us all of the time. Have you never felt a presence of a loved one?
Doesn't the bible say something like when god comes back to the earth the dead will rise and be with him?

I'm trying hard to stay out of this conversation too deeply. My views are all over the map....for some of you. You think this thread has...but you haven't talked to me yet...hehe.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 179

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/23/2005 10:44:57 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

Anyway, we're going around in circles with this. I know very well where Christians are "coming from."

What about me LaM? Where am I coming from? I am a christian - and I don't wish to sound mean - but how and why can you generalise all christians? I know that christains approach their belief from different angles, just like in BDSM- not everyone is the same, but everyone has a commen goal.

I don't believe that earthquakes and tsunamis are tests of faith. Because a test of faith is a personal journey and using situations you may not understand with people you wont ever meet, would be a pointless and fruitless endeavour.

You ask, why does God let children die? Why do innocents get killed? What kind of omnibenevolent God would allow this? God being omnibenevolent doesn't mean He is all forgiving, but that He gives for all.
God doesnt' cause earthquakes for shear delight, they may be part of the plan but not to fuck man over. What He did was to give us a beautiful, evolving planet to live on within a wonderful, amazing universe. God gave us as humans everything we need. We have all the resources we need to live and grow. Whether we choose to utilise these resources is another matter entirely - that is were free will comes in. I don't know if you have children LaM, but if you do, you will understand the concept of giving them everything you can in order for them to be able to be what they can be. As adults, we give education, we clothe, we buy gifts and books to read - offer knowledge and examples. When the child comes of age, it is then up to them whether they choose to use these advantages or not and forcing them achieves nothing but resentment. So we have all these resources at our disposel: brains to learn and move forward from past experience and science, jungles and forests that give up food and beauty as well as helping control the enviromental balance, an earth that is constantly evolving and changing so that we can learn more and be more of what He has designed for us, the ability to care and share - and what do we do? We destroy the jungles, ignore the poor, give no head the the environmental warnings that we have, ignore our ability to create structures or scientific equipment that would enable people to live on this great planet of ours in safety and security and instead, using the science to create war and kill innocent people, whilst allowing evil dictators to rule over the weak and forget the people who are suffering. So people can argue and proclaim using their intelect, or science or anything else they want, to say that God doesn't exist, or say He is an evil God and that He lets people die. Because it's always easier to pass the buck than to accept our own faults and responsibilites. And until we as men and women accept our responsibilities that we have been given - the responsibilites that we have - then pointless death and destruction will occur. It isn't God killing people or allowing them to be killed. Its man. And until we use our knoweldge and use it alongside wisdom we will never be able to comprehend love. And that is what God is - Love.

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 7/23/2005 10:48:22 AM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 180

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