RE: Gun Question (Full Version)

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InfernoMDM -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:00:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

Yeah because if anyone but his close friends finds out I bet you cash he will get busted.  Several cops have gotten turned in for that.  Now if he payed his 200 dollar tax stamp he is ok.  Generally most don't. 



Inferno, I can only hope that is the case.  Because I see to much in the news nowadays that would suggest otherwise.  Accountability seems to be a thing of the past, along with government being the servant of the people. 


i apologise for the idiot comment, but most saw off shotguns not know they may get 2-3 degree differnce in shot patern, when it is cut down the rounds can spread out even at 10' to the point there is only 1-2 00 hiting the target at best.

Also that shockwave yo claim in teh 45 is nonexsistant.  That is a myth, and hydrostatic shock, that creates temporary wound cavities are only found in rifle rounds due to velocity.



TahoeSadist -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:08:19 AM)

     This isn't quite the answer asked for, but here goes. For someone completely new to firearms, I advise looking for your local shooting club ( a quick Google search turns up a bunch in your state). The reason being, many if not most clubs have instruction on firearm safety, use, etc. Even if the one near you doesn't, I promise that someone there will be able to point you in the right direction. As was pointed out above, one doesn't want to appear to be a responsible gun owner, one MUST BE a responsible gun owner. You need to know how whatever weapon you choose (if you decide to get one) works, what the pluses and minuses are, how to handle mechanical issues with it (it is said that no one "*needs* a handgun except when you need it very very badly" and while I don't quite buy that theory, at a time like that you do not want to be trying to figure out how to clear that stovepipe jam in the automatic) Also, relying on a weapon, any weapon to work just by the scare factor or if I hurt this person maybe they will leave me alone isn't the best plan. It may work, but then again it may not. Thus learning how to use whatever you pick, in less than best conditions, is very important in case the absolute worse scenario happens and you have to use it.
    Now that that is said, I'd suggest also that you look at this from a different perspective. Shooting is a fun activity, it requires skills be developed, practice, control, and more. Virtually all participants in shooting sports I know are friendly, helpful, normal folks who like to see new shooters and go out of their way to assist them (going back to locating your local club(s)) Looking at it as a positive i.e. "I want to learn this skill and see where it takes me" I think will work better in the long run than viewing it in a less positive light i.e. "this is just in case I have to harm or kill someone".
    As to the original question, my opinion is this: a 20ga (no bigger) or better yet a .410 pump gun would be very high on my list, second choice would be a double action revolver in .357 but loaded with .38 spl (does not need to be kept loaded, and a speedloader will be as fast or faster than the mag loaded auto) my last choice would be an automatic for a new shooter, as the issues that can happen with one can stop you cold if you don't know how to handle them.


Eric



farglebargle -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:10:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

(fast reply)

Another good thing about the shotgun is, you don't have to use 00 shells, you can use a smaller shell to injure but not kill.



Remember the days of rock-salt?

Simpler times...

Hey, anyone suggest a 1911?




came4U -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:10:27 AM)

I'm not allowed to play with guns/weapons no mo by court order. lol

[:(]



ArgoGeorgia -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:12:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM
i apologise for the idiot comment, but most saw off shotguns not know they may get 2-3 degree differnce in shot patern, when it is cut down the rounds can spread out even at 10' to the point there is only 1-2 00 hiting the target at best.

Also that shockwave yo claim in teh 45 is nonexsistant.  That is a myth, and hydrostatic shock, that creates temporary wound cavities are only found in rifle rounds due to velocity.


Oh, don't have to apologize for the idiot comment about the sawed off shotgun, you were right on.  The guy with the sawed off is an idiot, or at least made an idiotic decision.

And you are also correct - .45 does not have hydrostatic shock.  (Too early in the morning, thus mistakes like "hydroshock", a type of ammunition, not the effect.  ugh).  The higher-velocity rifle rounds do cause this.  Guess my army medic training is getting a bit rusty after 15 years....



Real0ne -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:14:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

Yes if your Cop friend cut it off from a 18 inch to a less then legal size he isn't to bright.  Depending on how much you cut down a shotgun determins its effects, but amoos does as well.  The time for getting caught with a unregistered short barrel shotgun isn't worth it.  Now he could have it cut to 18 inches say from 22+ which is fine.

There is s little differnce if you look at my previous post I show photos(linked) of the differnce.  check out tacticalforums.com these guys are all in the industry trying to make a better bullet, or get the right info to the men who shoot.  You can look it up.

Genereally speaking anything from 9-45 will go about 13 inches depending on grains.  The larger rounds however have a slight(yes slight) advantage when traveling through walls etc.




Thats over simplified.

i use a 10mil with a slightly modified 150 hp pill. at 1500+
made that choice because its light handy and i get 44 mag  performance with off the shelf ammo.

now use your imagination and compare that to the pic of your 125 hp pill at 1300+

i wont even mention my fav, the 454.








BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:17:14 AM)

A saw off shotgun isn't worth a tinkers dam except in very close range,A good modified or full choke and a 32 inch barrel..The thing about a 45 is a  shot most any where will put one down very quick even though a 22 in competent hands can as well..I carried a 22 magum auto as a back up gun during my time in the service,it got me out of several tight spots over the years,,,,,There are many around that will teach you to shoot and handle a weapon just takes some looking around....bounty



TheIronHorse -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:19:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

(fast reply)

Another good thing about the shotgun is, you don't have to use 00 shells, you can use a smaller shell to injure but not kill.



Remember the days of rock-salt?

Simpler times...

Hey, anyone suggest a 1911?




Today one has to worry about putting down a crazed-methhead-on-a-rampage.   In simpler times, a show of force might have been enough to stop an attacker.  Today, you're more likely to wind up having to apply that force.

While I like the 1911, I still think a revolver is the best choice for someone who's just going to box the weapon after his/her initial training.   A revolver can be brought into action a lot faster, particularly if one is out of practice. 





HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:20:41 AM)

One suggestion I have not seen here yet is to use shot loads in the first three chambers of a revolver (say a .38 or .357) and normal rounds in the rest of the chambers. Revolvers are dead reliable with almost no maintenance, they are not physically large (which can be helpful indoors), they are relatively inexpensive, and the combination of shot rounds and standard rounds lets you shoot to stop first and still shoot to kill if need be. When I was working in security this was a standard setup in places where other people might be in the background.

If you insist on a cartridge loading semi-automatic then I suggest the H&K P-7, you can carry it loaded but unchambered. As you draw the weapon a squeeze of the hand-grip will chamber the first round and turn off the safety. All that is left is to pull the trigger. It's a compact weapon and is also very accurate and very reliable. Don't forget that as with any new semi-automatic you are going to want to go to a range and pump about 500 rounds through it to break it in and prevent stove-piping, and also to get used to the weapon in general. This is a step that a lot of new semi-automatic owners fail to do only to find the gun jamming on them when they really need it, or that they have forgotten how to turn off the safety. The P-7 is not cheap, but in terms of value it's worth every penny as it is the safest carry gun I have ever seen.



Real0ne -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:24:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

Yeah because if anyone but his close friends finds out I bet you cash he will get busted.  Several cops have gotten turned in for that.  Now if he payed his 200 dollar tax stamp he is ok.  Generally most don't. 



Inferno, I can only hope that is the case.  Because I see to much in the news nowadays that would suggest otherwise.  Accountability seems to be a thing of the past, along with government being the servant of the people. 


i apologise for the idiot comment, but most saw off shotguns not know they may get 2-3 degree differnce in shot patern, when it is cut down the rounds can spread out even at 10' to the point there is only 1-2 00 hiting the target at best.

Also that shockwave yo claim in teh 45 is nonexsistant.  That is a myth, and hydrostatic shock, that creates temporary wound cavities are only found in rifle rounds due to velocity.



Try hydrodynamic.

Forget hydrostatic and go for hydrodynamic. 

Thats not why people saw them off.

How short does it have to be to get your spread? 






BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:25:19 AM)

I would say a shotgun if better for those that are just looking for home defense however our two chows are better then a car load of guns,just some thing about a show of fangs the gives one a second thought about proceeding smiles...ol' SAM and barney are trained to the max and yet laid back if a threat isn't presented toward us.....My inlaws were her yesterday and scared to death of them both...bounty



Owner59 -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:27:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

You can't beat a shotgun for home defense purposes.  I grew up with guns and I own a few handguns.  But the gun I keep loaded at home is my 12 gauge shotgun.  If someone breaks into my home, they are going to hear me rack a shell and hopefully retreat.  If a burglar is armed, they are probably going to be carrying a handgun.  I'll put my 12 guage up against any handgun.  I suggested a 410 or 20 guage because they are not as intimidating to a new shooter.  A 410 has more impact power than a .44 magnum.  You don't have to be a marksman to use one.  They are simple point and click weapons.  They are much less likely to go through the wall and hit innocent bystanders.    



Slaveboy is correct.For home defense,nothing beats a shotgun and a dog(or two).

One point to consider.Pistols are inherently more dangerous,because of their short length.With just a wave or slight movement,you could shoot yourself in the leg,or god forbid,your torso.

Long guns on the other hand,are almost impossible(unless you`re really trying) to turn on yourself.Their sheer length make them safer.

A pump action`s sound(cycling it) ,is something no sane man would walk towards.IMO, there`s nothing more lethal then 00 buckshot ammo.



InfernoMDM -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:27:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM
i apologise for the idiot comment, but most saw off shotguns not know they may get 2-3 degree differnce in shot patern, when it is cut down the rounds can spread out even at 10' to the point there is only 1-2 00 hiting the target at best.

Also that shockwave yo claim in teh 45 is nonexsistant.  That is a myth, and hydrostatic shock, that creates temporary wound cavities are only found in rifle rounds due to velocity.


Oh, don't have to apologize for the idiot comment about the sawed off shotgun, you were right on.  The guy with the sawed off is an idiot, or at least made an idiotic decision.

And you are also correct - .45 does not have hydrostatic shock.  (Too early in the morning, thus mistakes like "hydroshock", a type of ammunition, not the effect.  ugh).  The higher-velocity rifle rounds do cause this.  Guess my army medic training is getting a bit rusty after 15 years....


15 years ago they believed these effects happened in pistol rouns as well, but they didn't take some things into consideration.  Science got better and those ideas died.  It is pretty much ignorance that needs to be crushed now, and it gets frustrating as some people wont look at reality.



TheIronHorse -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:31:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

I would say a shotgun if better for those that are just looking for home defense however our two chows are better then a car load of guns,just some thing about a show of fangs the gives one a second thought about proceeding smiles...ol' SAM and barney are trained to the max and yet laid back if a threat isn't presented toward us.....My inlaws were her yesterday and scared to death of them both...bounty


I got into shooting many years ago with two black powder pistols.  They were easy to acquire and cheap to shoot.  The smoke and noise was fun too!

I have a Model 97 Winchester that was handed down to me, that is what I use for home defense.  It's a damn large weapon though.

I havent fired any of my weapons in several years.

I agree that a dog is good deterrent, but I dont want to deal with the upkeep.  





Sinergy -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:49:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: master218711

"I was just trying to stop him from killing me"



We tell our students to make one statement "He assaulted me, I defended myself" and then say nothing else.

As an aside, a gun ups the ante from a simple assault to a situation where one of you will end up dead.

If you are not willing to kill somebody, probably best you dont consider a gun for self defense.

Sinergy

p.s.  Do you think Dead-eye Dick Cheney was sure of his target and what was behind it?



Real0ne -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 8:58:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
As an aside, a gun ups the ante from a simple assault to a situation where one of you will end up dead.


Yup!  In fact that is rule number 1.

If you pull a gun, first you better make sure the other guy has a weapon, you must feel that your life was in danger, and finally and most importantly, never pull a gun unless you have no doubt in your mind that you will pull that trigger kill em deader than hell and do nothing less than shoot to kill.

If you arent there dont even bother because that someone who ends up dead just might be the victim in the first place.



InfernoMDM -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 9:04:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

Yes if your Cop friend cut it off from a 18 inch to a less then legal size he isn't to bright.  Depending on how much you cut down a shotgun determins its effects, but amoos does as well.  The time for getting caught with a unregistered short barrel shotgun isn't worth it.  Now he could have it cut to 18 inches say from 22+ which is fine.

There is s little differnce if you look at my previous post I show photos(linked) of the differnce.  check out tacticalforums.com these guys are all in the industry trying to make a better bullet, or get the right info to the men who shoot.  You can look it up.

Genereally speaking anything from 9-45 will go about 13 inches depending on grains.  The larger rounds however have a slight(yes slight) advantage when traveling through walls etc.




Thats over simplified.

i use a 10mil with a slightly modified 150 hp pill. at 1500+
made that choice because its light handy and i get 44 mag  performance with off the shelf ammo.

now use your imagination and compare that to the pic of your 125 hp pill at 1300+

i wont even mention my fav, the 454.


I can't give you any defiante info on the 10mm as compared to the other rounds, execpt its only  a bit better.  I believe most of the penetration levels run between 13-16" which is 2-3" more then your avearge rounds on the market.

I over simplify this because tis a very hard topic to discuss, without someone getting but hurt about not haveing a big enough bullet usually.  That and I don't know everything about the subject, but generally more then most internet wizards. 

That said the FBi, and several independant firms haven't seen any really advantage with the 10mm as compared to your normal rounds carried by LE.  Someone posted a link to the FBI site and they do a indepth talk about it.

For its added penetration benifit there are several losses, and hydro___ (whatever you prefer it is all discussing the same thing) basicly doesn't do anything better then the rest of the bullets.



TheHeretic -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 9:08:34 AM)

fast reply


     Here is another endorsement of the pump action shotgun.  That sound is unmistakeable and in a universal language (much easier than learning to say "I have a gun," in Spanish, for instance).  For home defense, I prefer to load with #4 buckshot.  More pieces of metal moving downrange equals more holes in the target.

      Many states require some sort of additional locking mechanism.  I'd suggest a trigger lock rather than the cable lock many come with.  Those can be "dummy locked," and removed very quickly without fumbling for a key, yet they provide a measure of security to anyone not familiar with the secret to remove them.

       If you really want a handgun, I would suggest a revolver, and pick up a speedloader.

       No matter what your choice, take some training classes.



mnottertail -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 9:11:03 AM)

Shotgun and birdshot, or you can pry open the end (carefully and fill with rock salt and seal it up and paint wax on the end) I prefer semi autos like Browning A5 or as I call them clitorees (Citori) and if you want to blow garbage can size holes you can cut the shell behind the  load. 

So if you wanted to go a slug, put it in the magazine first so it is the last one out, put 4 birdshots or rocksalts in, and save deadly pumpkin slinging for last.

Ron



TheIronHorse -> RE: Gun Question (9/9/2007 9:13:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Here is another endorsement of the pump action shotgun.  That sound is unmistakeable and in a universal language (much easier than learning to say "I have a gun," in Spanish, for instance).


Particularly loud and clear at 3 AM on a cold winters morning.   ;-)




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