Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (Full Version)

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camille65 -> Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:37:00 AM)

So many are emphatic on the issue of M/s not bringing any special depth to a relationship. That aside from kink there is nothing to distinguish it from any other relationship.

Yet we have threads that indicate the opposite, that indicate there is something different or possibly deeper than a vanilla relationship.
Threads such as
*Why is BDSM Still a Part Of Your Life?*
*Moral Standard In BDSM*
*Love From a Slave Perspective*
Just to name a few that are currently running.

From me, I can easily say that yes there is a difference, that yes a D/s relationship is indeed different. It is deeper because more of me is required. More openness, honesty & personal growth. Those three items are almost always emphasized as neccessary or intregal to a BDSM balance.

I see a difference at the core of it.
So my wandering question to 'you' is this.

Do you feel that a BDSM relationship is different from one that is not BDSM?



jaxnsax -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:40:31 AM)

Greetings
You asked if I feel that a BDSM relationship is different than one without BDSM? My answer is yes. But, I have to stress, that for myself, BDSM only means ‘kinky play’
Now if you were to ask if I felt a M/s relationship differed from one without; my answer would be, for myself no. I don’t stop being the person I am; it matters not if the person that I am with understands M/s dynamics or not. I am still me.
jaxon



came4U -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:42:45 AM)

The only difference to me is that both in the relationship share a common 'secret' identity.  This could in itself help in the bonding of the two. That deep, dark secret is the glue that distinguishes me/him from another. 



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:48:47 AM)

Sure, one has bdsm and the other doesn't.

For INDIVIDUALS, they may feel that X relationship requires/has more A, B, C than Y relationship.

But overall, there really isn't any difference other than the orientation to be in a relationship based upon some form of authority transfer.

And even then you end up with weirdos like me who have vanilla relationships with kinky people who switch with eachother.

People WANT to feel that bdsm/Ms is different/cooler/better.  This sadly gets them into all sorts of trouble as they change their expectations and lose all previous life learning in the pursuit of the golden fleece.  Of course bdsm/Ms is different/cooler FOR THEM, because it is their orientation.  But the basics are the same, the people are the same, the motivations are the same as any healthy fulfilling relationship. 



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:49:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U
The only difference to me is that both in the relationship share a common 'secret' identity.  This could in itself help in the bonding of the two. That deep, dark secret is the glue that distinguishes me/him from another. 

We do?  I am the Pop Culture Princess, but even that's not very secret of an identity around here.

In my life I've found secrets only lead to estrangement.  It would not work for my life.



domiguy -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:53:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

So many are emphatic on the issue of M/s not bringing any special depth to a relationship. That aside from kink there is nothing to distinguish it from any other relationship.

Yet we have threads that indicate the opposite, that indicate there is something different or possibly deeper than a vanilla relationship.
Threads such as
*Why is BDSM Still a Part Of Your Life?*
*Moral Standard In BDSM*
*Love From a Slave Perspective*
Just to name a few that are currently running.

From me, I can easily say that yes there is a difference, that yes a D/s relationship is indeed different. It is deeper because more of me is required. More openness, honesty & personal growth. Those three items are almost always emphasized as neccessary or intregal to a BDSM balance.

I see a difference at the core of it.
So my wandering question to 'you' is this.

Do you feel that a BDSM relationship is different from one that is not BDSM?


The threads could easily havebeen changed....

"Why is sex still an important part of your life?"
"Moral standards in dating."
"Love from a female perspective."

It's all the same food with different seasonings....



mountainpet -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:53:45 AM)

For a given individual, there are, I think, definite differences between vanilla relationships and D/s or bdsm relationships.  However, that difference loses its clarity and focus when we are discussing a universe of people, even a small universe.  There are few, if any, things we do as D/s or bdsm which aren't also done by some vanilla couples who would be very offended if we said they were "into" our kinks. 

Also, there are many D/s or M/s relationships where both parties have a great deal of freedom, and there are vanilla relationships that feature a level of control and commitment which makes many of our wiitwd power exchanges look like minor leagues. 

These differences in the way people perceive themselves, and others in their lives, make comparisons very difficult. 



came4U -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 11:54:53 AM)

 
LA,
no, secret as in he is a dominant at home, she being the submissive at home situation.

As a couple, I would find it of bonding nature to know our home life is secretive and another reason that outsiders (vanilla) would not be involved in knowing.

Hard to explain, since I am distracted at the moment by neighbors screaming kid, grr

It is like two persons with a common hobby or enjoyment that can giggle in glee about, yet others don't understand. The secret itself is just the D/s behind closed doors.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:01:19 PM)

Well most Ds and Ms relationships don't just exist within one sphere.  They are 24/7. 

I understand that a lot of people do get off on and enjoy being in a "sub culture" and having their little dark secret- but I've found that this soon wears off and won't help the relationship in the long term.



toservez -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:02:26 PM)

I do not think that the life we live is any different then “regular” relationships. Communication, trust and honesty are foundation values in all relationships. This life like regular life can preach these things as extra important or go deeper but just as many people in our relationships have people lie, destroy trust and have trouble communicating many things in their life just as well. I know maybe for us these things feel deeper because it gets us to feel them deeper but that is us and not make these relationships have a deeper well of these values.

For me personally what this life does for me that regular life does not is let me be me more naturally. Yes, these things do include me trusting more and better deeper communication are important factors but the life just gives me a better tools for me personally to get that ‘regular” people would laugh at or run in horror.

I am sorry but any talk of moral and personal growth is just people wanting to feel better about themselves, feel special or have a problem with accepting that this life is their best path.

These are just the best tools for US to get these things, it is not deeper or better “because”.

All relationships are different, these just happen to not be able to hide in normal society. The only thing I have seen over the years that the people that come and stay into this life might have a head start in knowing and accepting themselves for what they are and not what society expects them to be but again still this life a tool for people and not different rules apply.





xoxi -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:03:52 PM)

I don't think there is any inherent special difference, and that's also the main reason I don't like the term "WIITWD" or even the term "vanilla."

What it is that *I* do is probably closer to what it is that a "vanilla" person does than what it is that a polyamorous Gorean slave does.  No joke.  And what it is that someone else does might have more in common with the gay 'cruising' scene than anything that I do.

I personally will never base a relationship off of D/s or BDSM.  The relationship needs to be able to stand alone rather than using that as a crutch.  You say BDSM requires "more honesty, openness, and personal growth" compared to vanilla relationships?  I would say that ANY relationship that does not have high levels of honesty, openness and personal growth will fail.  Regardless of whether it's between a Master and slave, Dom and sub, or boyfriend and girlfriend.  Those are important things in any relationship...and there are just as many dysfunctional BDSM oriented relationships as there are 'vanilla' ones.

If you asked me the difference between what it is that I do and 'vanilla' relationships I would say that I enjoy and pursue things that 'vanilla' people would likely consider abusive and demeaning, and I need to be with a man who will enjoy doing those things to me.  But besides that...there's not much of a difference.  I need to love and respect the man I'm with - so does a vanilla woman.  I need to be sexually compatible with the man I'm with, and feel comfortable sharing my body with him.  I need to be able to have a conversation with him, open up about my feelings, share laughter, and be able to discuss what the future will hold for us.  I need a guy who I can have fun with OUTSIDE the bedroom - I'll even go to a Cubs game with him just because I like him that darn much.  Those are the things that I think a relationship is built on, not JUST a specific kink.

And for what it's worth, I refer to my previous partners as "ex boyfriends" rather than "Former Masters" or "ex-Doms" and I always will.  Because they were so much more than just a "Dom" or a "Master" - they were my partner as well.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:04:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Do you feel that a BDSM relationship is different from one that is not BDSM?


My feeling is there are no BDSM relationships.

People form relationships.  They exchange power (or not) according to their mutual desire.  They join together in such ways as are mutually pleasurable.  Whether the joining is "BDSM" or "vanilla" (or chocolate, or strawberry, or pecan pralines n' cream...) is a descriptive label applicable only in broad strokes.

My woman is my slave because such expresses who we are--she and I--as individual and as a couple.  We are man and woman, master and slave; we are this with or without the rubric of BDSM.



came4U -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:05:40 PM)

I wouldn't put myself into a 'sub culture' situation.  Does that mean as in lifestylers??

quote:

I understand that a lot of people do get off on and enjoy being in a "sub culture" and having their little dark secret- but I've found that this soon wears off and won't help the relationship in the long term.   


can you please clarify, I have the attention span of a goldfish today lol.



xoxi -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:05:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


The threads could easily havebeen changed....

"Why is sex still an important part of your life?"
"Moral standards in dating."
"Love from a female perspective."

It's all the same food with different seasonings....


So, SO true!



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:09:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U
I wouldn't put myself into a 'sub culture' situation.  Does that mean as in lifestylers??

It means they both like sharing something in common that is uncommon to others.

quote:


can you please clarify, I have the attention span of a goldfish today lol.

The same reason people who engage in affairs really get excited and happy at the start...and eventually just feel worn down and tired.  First the secret is exciting and great to share, eventually it just becomes a burden or no big deal.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:10:18 PM)

quote:

I see a difference at the core of it. So my wandering question to 'you' is this.
Do you feel that a BDSM relationship is different from one that is not BDSM?


camille,
No, although I feel our relationship is "different" at the core than most - I don't think the BDSM aspect of is the "core" difference. There is nothing exclusive to a BDSM relationship that can not or does not exist without the BDSM precursor.

The fact that some BDSM relationships give the appearance of requiring an honesty and trust that isn't as apparent in vanilla is a delusion. "Love", "Moral Standards" or "BDSM 'still' part of your life"; all may give their perception of difference, but "love", the "moral standard" of a relationship, or since BDSM activity reflects physical interaction - replace it with sex and you get "Sex 'still' part of your life". It seems a bit silly to put any priority on a BDSM slant.

Its very difficult to have regular interaction with a person and not have some type of emotional investment. Call that emotional investment "love" and why does a BDSM slant make a difference regardless of which side of the flogger is preferred?

Initiating a relationship requires accepting a 'moral standard' for that relationship. Accepting whatever that is, from 'white lies' to accepting your partner has an spouse that doesn't "understand" them and again - the BDSM aspect is only a diversion.

Why it's "still" part of your life seems to imply that people go into it on a part time or trial basis and determine it's not for them. That happens with most things that people believe "look like fun", "easy", or provide an opportunity for exploitation. How many people have tennis rackets, skies, roller blades, or some other prop they bought and used one time that was needed to try something that they've seen or heard about? BDSM is similar in that the physical aspect seems "fun" and "easy". Many see it as a short cut to sex. The opening lines, such as; "get on your knees and serve me slut!" point to that image. But how is that different than any other dating site or 'meat market' type bar on a Saturday night?

Some people are "still" here, because the ploy worked to fulfill their goal. Others are "still" here because the dynamic appeals to them, even though they've never experienced it in real time. Others have no choice - they're "still" here because there is nowhere else to go. Fortunate if they've been lucky enough to find a complimentary partner. Sad and frustrated, but determined not to compromise even if they are "still" here alone. Unique? Ask the same question at closing time at a bar and you'll likely get the similiar answers - even if its a Country Western bar.

Sorry, if two people meet, have complimentary needs and can trust each other to get and stay "naked" - they can have any sexual and/or emotional/mental dynamic and it will have "depth".



LaTigresse -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:13:24 PM)

The main difference for ME is more defined roles. I hate the whole vanilla aspect of everyone trying to balance everything without overstepping boundaries.

In most vanilla relationships I have seen or been in. There is alot of fancy sidestepping stuff. I like the idea of one person being the delegated decision maker.... however it all gets worked out. Versus, the whole "what should we do, I don't know what should we do?" When they BOTH have an idea of what they each want but are afraid to upset the delicate balance. It's nice to have a stronger definition, someone that just says "okay then THIS is what we are going to do!"



came4U -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:15:49 PM)

quote:

The same reason people who engage in affairs really get excited and happy at the start...and eventually just feel worn down and tired.  First the secret is exciting and great to share, eventually it just becomes a burden or no big deal.


oohh ok, I THINK I understand, not not sure.

The secret itself is just with the couple, a closeness, an openness, honesty with a couple. A bonding because it is a 'safe' place to act out your real-self with relief and without undue pressure to be or act like someone/thing you aren't once you are home.

Ie: a gal with a job, perhaps a dominant job, and can release pressure with her Dominant at home., or the very opposite, a Dominant man who can relieve his burdens by being a submissive to his lady. etc etc.

That 'secret' is what I meant, that brings two people closer.     



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:18:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
The main difference for ME is more defined roles. I hate the whole vanilla aspect of everyone trying to balance everything without overstepping boundaries.

In most vanilla relationships I have seen or been in. There is alot of fancy sidestepping stuff. I like the idea of one person being the delegated decision maker.... however it all gets worked out. Versus, the whole "what should we do, I don't know what should we do?" When they BOTH have an idea of what they each want but are afraid to upset the delicate balance. It's nice to have a stronger definition, someone that just says "okay then THIS is what we are going to do!"

Honestly I haven't seen any difference between vanillas and aware Ds relationships on this.  I think it really is just the people involve.  I hear all the time "What does a dom do? What should a slave say?" and all sorts of manipulating and manuevering and no one really quite sure what's going on.

But I can say I understand that's why you like it for YOU and what you make sure to enforce in YOUR relationship.

I mean my relationship is vanilla and we're about as undefined as you can imagine...but we never have the issues on overstepping or maintaining a delicate balance.



BitaTruble -> RE: Delving into the Depths or The Difference Between Nilla & WIITWD (9/10/2007 12:18:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

So many are emphatic on the issue of M/s not bringing any special depth to a relationship.

Do you feel that a BDSM relationship is different from one that is not BDSM?


bdsm has kink, vanilla doesn't. to me that's the major difference right there.

m/s and vanilla, though, have different issues with which to deal. some of what m/s couples/groups go through is harder than what vanilla couples go through, some of it is like water off a ducks back. over-all, there's probably enough on each side that it's pretty balanced. no matter what, there are going to be m/s relationships which are superficial and m/s relationships which are deeper than oceans .. and the same holds true for vanilla relationships.

our being in a m/s relationship means that the authority dynamic is in place and there's no question as to who has the final word. with that dynamic in place, himself and i don't have some of the arguments which may be more common to vanilla couples. sex, finances, what movie we're going to watch on saturday are never issues of contention in this house. i'd like to stress that compatibility with a partner, whether vanilla, m/s or something else, is going to alleviate the vast majority of those sorts of issues anyway. issues which are unique to m/s relationships may be different from vanilla issues but in the end, when you're with the right partner/s those can be worked through to a satisfactory conclusion for all the parties involved.

A vanilla partner can hear the word 'no' and choose to ignore it and probably not have to many consequences for it depending on what the 'no' was for while a m/s partner can hear the word 'no' and it may mean the end of the relationship all together. In some ways, m/s is more delicate in that respect so when it does end up working it 'feels' like so much more has been accomplished. sometimes feelings are all we have, so it's hard to ignore those.

to me, vanilla is boundless and because of that, there are more options to be found in the vanilla world. m/s is more structured, which automatically limits options and finding a compatible partner can be harder with those limits especially if you're already involved and seeking rather than already having a partner with whom you want to explore d/s. what i mean by that is, in m/s you, basically, have three options - dom, sub or switch. have ongoing authority, give up ongoing authority or authority is based on the energy you feel in the moment or with a particular person. vanilla is, generally, going to be shared authority most of the time and one partner or the other may have to compromise their authority to the relationship. in other words, in m/s a 'person' has authority and in vanilla a 'relationship' has authority.

just the way i see it, ymmv

celeste




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