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On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:07:25 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		While browsing through the Ask A Submissive forum, I came upon a thread titled "Compliments".  Below is one sentence from a post within that thread that really stood out to me.  (Bear, I hope you'll forgive my using your quote to begin this thread.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

... You state that you trust him and love him and part of that trust given is knowing he will be honest with you ...


My immediate response to that was “no… that isn't necessarily so.”  I realize that under ideal circumstances, we'd like it to be so... but I really don't think real life quite lives up to our fantasies.

Claim all you want that M/s or D/s relationships are different... that they are somehow special and immune to human foibles... but in the end, relationships are relationships and human beings will be human.

I know not of one soul who lives their life in complete honesty... or even just one area of their life.  We all to some degree fib, exaggerate, placate, backtrack, equivocate, obscure, prevaricate, fabricate, mislead, and yes... outright lie. 

Most decent people try to curb that behavior or restrict it to only situations where no real harm will occur.  Problem is, we often lie to ourselves about what the consequences will be and just what constitutes harm. 

Take Santa Claus for example... have you led your child to believe there was such a person?  Did you justify your deception by telling yourself that they'd get over it when they were older... that they'd suffer more harm by not believing in something that all their peers believed in?  Thing is, it might not have caused any real harm but you were still lying to someone who loves and trusts you.

I absolutely love and adore FirmhandKY... more than I'm sure he even realizes.  I also trust him with my life.  I trust him to be the person he has shown me... to behave and react in a manner consistent with who he has always been with me.  I trust him to be the decent, mature and thoughtful person that I know and love.

But I also trust him to be human.

Has he been less than truthful with me… perhaps hedged the truth a bit… exaggerated… withheld potentially damaging information?

Maybe.   *shrugs*

Does that mean that I don't care? 

No, I do care.  But I also do trust that if he has been less than truthful to me in any way, that at the time, he had what he believed to be a good reason.  I might not agree with him if I knew the truth, but I would trust that he feels the deception is truly necessary.

So, no... I don't buy into the idea that my love for and trust of him is even partly based on knowing that he will always be honest with me.  I have no delusions that he is some paragon of domly perfection.

But then, I really could be deluded and just lying to myself.   

Edited.  Damn... I hate when formatting doesn't work the way I want it to. 


< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 9/10/2007 6:11:19 PM >
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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:11:15 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I have no delusions that he is some paragon of domly perfection.


HEY!

I AM the paragon of domly perfection!

(my mommie told me so!)

Firm


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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:22:25 PM   
murmur


Posts: 394
Joined: 9/26/2005
Status: offline 		Love is complicated when you know that  your partner (and yourself!) has flaws and that he can try to change them, but not completely stop himself from being, ya know, human.

I think what matters in the end is how much both persons are willing to try to be the best of themselves in a relationship and mostly, not try to be perfect.

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:30:03 PM   
kshearsecouple


Posts: 171
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		I think I might have a diffrent view on stuff.  My husband and I are married.  Have been together for 8 yrs married for 4.  I do think trust needs to be earned in some aspect of life.  We met and fell in love blah blah blah*not gonna go through our story* :)  We had trust issues for one reason or another.  Now, I know he'd never lie to me.  I trust him 100% and It works.  Yes he is human we all are, but I don't for see him ever to have to lie to me.
quote:

Has he been less than truthful with me… perhaps hedged the truth a bit… exaggerated… withheld potentially damaging information?

I don't belive he has ever done that with me, again there would be no reason for him too.
oh well tis life and...as you so wonderfully stated
quote:

But then, I really could be deluded and just lying to myself.

that is probably me as well



(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:40:39 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I'm afraid I'm one of those weirdos- I've never hedged any truth, bent any reality, withheld, lied or in any way misled my partner.  Again, unless it was an obvious fun game to us both.



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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:40:43 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I had this converation recently with someone.

I don't expect the truth 100% of the time.  It would be a pity to ask "So what are we planning this weekend" when it's my birthday, only to hear "Well, I'd planned a surprise birthday party, but you had to ask me about it and ruin it now."

I expect that my relationship be strong enough to withstand the truth, 100% of the time.  With that said, I am willing to accept "I'd rather not say" as an answer.  I'm willing to accept a partial truth, in order to give my partner the time and space they need to share themselves with me, in the way they feel most comfortable with.

I've been in relationships where I felt I needed to hide parts of me.  I've hurt myself and others deeply as a result.  I have a very difficult time telling people things they don't want to hear, especially if I believe it will drive a wedge between us.  I struggle with balancing "what I feel" with "how I will make her feel when I say...."  The intention is never to lie, cheat, or be someone I am not; it's always to try and protect.  I've really struggled to accept that I cannot and should not attempt to protect my partner, from who I am and what I feel.

I'm also a hair breadths away from erasing all of this, so I'll just post and be done with it.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:45:51 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I have no delusions that he is some paragon of domly perfection.


HEY!

I AM the paragon of domly perfection!

(my mommie told me so!)

Firm



You'll always be my paragon. 

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:55:29 PM   
LaMspeach


Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
Status: offline 		Where is ownedgirlie when she is needed to give her thoughts on love honesty and trust .... She says it so much better then i can.


< Message edited by LaMspeach -- 9/10/2007 6:56:16 PM >

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:56:36 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

...I expect that my relationship be strong enough to withstand the truth, 100% of the time...

...I have a very difficult time telling people things they don't want to hear, especially if I believe it will drive a wedge between us...


It may be just my interpretation, but it sounds like reality intrudes on your expectations some. 

Honesty can be brutal... as a result, it makes sense that a 100% honest relationship (in the strictest sense) might become brutalized in time.  For me, a strong enough relationship to withstand normal turbulence is very important, but I like the idea of a whole and healthy relationship, better.

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:57:08 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Treasure, great post.  I had a similar discussion in the White Lies thread in Ask A Master, which was interesting, and where most of my thoughts on the subject were shared.   But I loved what you said about your trust in him, and I feel the same.  I trust my Master to manage my world the best way he sees fit.  Whatever he tells me, he has a reason to, and I have no reason to question.  I don't need him to be all revealing, all the time, in order to feel secure with him.  Who he is as a Master and a man is what makes me feel so secure with him.

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 6:58:18 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMspeach

Where is ownedgirlie when she is needed to give her thoughts on love honesty and trust .... She says it so much better then i can.



LOL I'm right up there ^  (we posted at the same time)


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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 7:07:41 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I went to read your previous post in the White Lies thread.  What beautiful sentiments, ownedgirlie.  To me, you describe a very loving and healthy relationship.  I wish you both the best.

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 7:09:24 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you, Treasure.  I appreciate your kind words very much.  I wish you and Firmhand the same.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 7:18:02 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

...I expect that my relationship be strong enough to withstand the truth, 100% of the time...

...I have a very difficult time telling people things they don't want to hear, especially if I believe it will drive a wedge between us...


It may be just my interpretation, but it sounds like reality intrudes on your expectations some. 

Honesty can be brutal... as a result, it makes sense that a 100% honest relationship (in the strictest sense) might become brutalized in time.  For me, a strong enough relationship to withstand normal turbulence is very important, but I like the idea of a whole and healthy relationship, better.



Hi Treasure,

In all sincerity, I'm having a hard time grasping the statements you've made.  I'm afraid we're probably describing concepts that are simply too abstract.

In dating a monogamous woman, I was asked by her "are you satisfied with just me?"  It's a conundrum.  The truth at the time was "Yes, I'm satisfied with the relationship we share, but I'd still like the opportunity to enjoy other people.  I don't require it, but I'd like it."  I know full well that the relationship would not have survived that kind of honesty.  Thus, she has asked me a 'deal killer' question; I can either tell half the truth ("Yes, I'm satisfied with just you") or I can terminate the relationship there and then.

Hence my statements, in that I expect my relationships in the present and future to be strong enough to withstand the whole truth.  I've learned (the very hard way) that holding back how I really feel doesn't save a relationship; it only condemns it to a slow, agonizing death.

I hope this offers more perspective on my position. 

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 8:00:53 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Stephann, you are right... these are very abstract ideas and ones that aren't really black and white.  I do think I understand the concept that you've tried to convey here and I agree that it is a difficult position to be in.

I don't want to put you at fault, but I would like to point something out in your statement...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

The truth at the time was "Yes, I'm satisfied with the relationship we share, but I'd still like the opportunity to enjoy other people.  I don't require it, but I'd like it."  I know full well that the relationship would not have survived that kind of honesty. 


There are two times here that you've claimed the truth, but from my perspective, it wasn't the truth at all.  She asked if you were satisfied with just her... not if you were satisfied with your relationship with her. 

As someone who desired a monogamous relationship, she was a smart cookie in asking you what she did... and I agree with you that it was a deal-killer question.  But you see, you were not satisfied with just her.  To be satified with just her would mean that you were content being with only her and had no desires to enjoy others, as well.

You weren't.  That was the real truth.  

It doesn't make your situation any easier, I admit... it is difficult when you find someone that you'd like to be with but you each have different wants. 

But my obscure comment about your expectations and reality apply here, too.  Your expectation in this case appears to be that you thought you could hang onto a relationship with a woman whose desires were to be the only woman in your life, when your desires were to have not only her but others that you wished.  The reality was that you could not.

It sounds as if you've already reached that conclusion, but my recommendation would be that if in the future you desire a relationship that can withstand 100% honesty, that you begin the relationship with honesty by telling any prospective partner that you do not desire monogamy.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 9/10/2007 8:07:20 PM >

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 8:13:47 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I'll be blunt here, I hope you don't misunderstand my tone.

I was satisfied with just her.  Satisfaction doesn't mean I was in Nirvana.  I know she wasn't asking if I was having my needs met.  She was asking if I was completely happy.

So, the truth is, I was happy and satisfied.  Lots of married men are happy and satisfied in monogamous and faithful relationships, who fantasize about what they 'could' have.  So, in answering her that "Yes, I am satisfied" I am faced with a few distinct questions.  "Do I want to remain in this relationship?"  Yes, I did.  "Do I accept that I won't have every desire met?" Yes I did.  "Do I tell her what all my fantasies and desires are?"  Yes, I should, but not in the context and at the time when she asked.  I told her what she needed to hear, at that time, to feel secure in our relationship.  At a later point (within a couple days) I discussed with her that I did have other desires that were just that; desires or fantasies, that I didn't and never would expect to satisfy, so long as we were together.

So, as you can see, reality isn't so tidily capsulized by black and white abstractions.  Since then, I accept that I won't actively seek an entirely monogamous relationship, but neither do I expect or require a poly (or swinging, or open, or 'flexible') relationship.  I have a great deal more importance placed on the quality of the relationship I share with my partner, than I do on satisfying my own kinks.

Regards,

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 8:31:28 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings TreasureKY, I have no problem in you using my quote in your OP  *grin*
I see your point in what you are getting across, yet I believe that it's our human nature to be honest as possible with our s/o without crossing that line of being too honest.

I do know that most couples do tell those little white lies to each other. Yet in the overall scheme, they are usually deemed to be unimportant to raise a fuss. Quite often many couples like and want to see the near perfectness of their partner all the while knowing they do have faults, flaws and are not perfect human beings. I do admit I am one of those who sees the imperfections in my partner and I determine if these imperfections are worth causing a fight over or if they are inconsequential to my relationship. If the lies and/or deceptions are harmful to the stability of our relationship, then yes, I will force the issue and I would want and expect my partner to do the same.

What I find works for myself is knowing I am doing my best to meet my partner's wants needs and desires in the relationship and he is doing his best to meet my wants needs and desires. I don't expect perfection from myself or from my partner, knowing we are doing the work required of us to maintain a solid relationship is good enough.


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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 8:32:46 PM   
jaxnsax


Posts: 106
Status: offline
Greetings
I am going to have to disagree with what you have said here.
Now yes, I agree that people are human, and that they make the same mistakes that ‘humans’ make; yet, to state that everyone at some time in their life has told some kind of lie is a generalization that is untrue. How do you know this?
You can not judge and label all others by your own standards. There are some out there who actually DO believe that a lie; no matter how small or how innocent; they believe that it is just plain wrong to lie to another person. For whatever reason. And to that degree, they do not tell lies; half-truths, they do not deceive, etc, etc.
To address the rest of what you said, that love and trust is based on knowing that a person will always be honest; that I will agree with. I do not feel love has anything to do with trust or honesty. A person will love who they will love; I do not believe that we have any control over that. Honesty and trust do not even enter into it.
( and before everyone starts arguing that without those two, a person can not have a healthy sustained relationship; I agree, but that would only be an opinion based on my own experiences and preferences )

jaxon

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 9:01:01 PM   
charlotte12


Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I had this converation recently with someone.

I don't expect the truth 100% of the time.  It would be a pity to ask "So what are we planning this weekend" when it's my birthday, only to hear "Well, I'd planned a surprise birthday party, but you had to ask me about it and ruin it now."

I expect that my relationship be strong enough to withstand the truth, 100% of the time.  With that said, I am willing to accept "I'd rather not say" as an answer.  I'm willing to accept a partial truth, in order to give my partner the time and space they need to share themselves with me, in the way they feel most comfortable with.

I've been in relationships where I felt I needed to hide parts of me.  I've hurt myself and others deeply as a result.  I have a very difficult time telling people things they don't want to hear, especially if I believe it will drive a wedge between us.  I struggle with balancing "what I feel" with "how I will make her feel when I say...."  The intention is never to lie, cheat, or be someone I am not; it's always to try and protect.  I've really struggled to accept that I cannot and should not attempt to protect my partner, from who I am and what I feel.

I'm also a hair breadths away from erasing all of this, so I'll just post and be done with it.

Stephan



So beautifully put.


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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/10/2007 9:30:54 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		fast reply

The link is firmest when you simply care. It's that simple-and you are selfish-and don't want to jepordize a good thing-so you avoid doing things that will screw it up.

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