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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/13/2007 9:06:46 AM

adoracat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR to Jaxsnax, bobkgin in particular, but to anyone else who makes the claim that "100% honest" is possible.

The human cognitive processes and consciousness were evolved to "manage the truth" or reality. It's an inherent part of our human nature. Period.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, and whether or not you attempt to be "as honest as possible" or to be "100% honest" with a single individual (I doubt that's possible, but it is certainly a noble goal), each individual still manages to "massage" their, and other's perceptions of reality from time to time, by the method of presentation, by omission of some circumstances or facts, by means and methods of emphasis etc, even if they do not outright fabricate.

We morally condemn the words like "lie", "deceive" and "dishonesty", so I won't use those words, but the basic concept is the same - managing what we say or do in order to achieve the outcome we wish or desire. Anyone who really, truly, believes that they never "manage the truth" in some way at some time - even unconsciously - is likely deceiving themselves.

Firm

you can be Honorable and still not be totally 100% bluntly honest with someone. i'll quite willingly admit that there is one thing that i lie consistantly about unless asked a very direct question about. and Sir is aware of this, and it depends on his mood if he allows me to keep that subject quiet, or insists on the truth.

Honor is important to me. however....i have no issues with some types of dishonesty (as you mention in a subsequent post) such as keeping someone from danger, presenting yourself in the most attractive light, things of that nature.

for me, what it boils down to "am i able to present myself before my gods and not be ashamed of my behavior?" and act accordingly.

kitten

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/13/2007 4:47:20 PM

FirmhandKY

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jaxon,

These are the comments you originally made in the thread that I take exception with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaxnsax
; yet, to state that everyone at some time in their life has told some kind of lie is a generalization that is untrue. How do you know this?

You can not judge and label all others by your own standards. There are some out there who actually DO believe that a lie; no matter how small or how innocent; they believe that it is just plain wrong to lie to another person. For whatever reason. And to that degree, they do not tell lies; half-truths, they do not deceive, etc, etc.

My observations:

to state that everyone at some time in their life has told some kind of lie is a generalization that is untrue

This is indeed a generalization, but it is not untrue. It's a fact of human nature. To believe otherwise, while nice, is an idealistic view of human nature that does not comport with reality in experience, or with scientific research.

You can not judge and label all others by your own standards.

Yes you can. We all do, all the time, without exception or fail.

There are some out there who actually DO believe that a lie; no matter how small or how innocent; they believe that it is just plain wrong to lie to another person. For whatever reason. And to that degree, they do not tell lies; half-truths, they do not deceive, etc, etc

Sure. I'll agree that there might actually be some people who believe that anything less than "100% truth" is a moral failing (that's actually the Christian ideal). Such a belief is an admirable ideal. A perfection that is never, and can never be lived up to.

Whether or not "they do not tell lies; half-truths, they do not deceive, etc, etc" is entirely another question.

I suspect that what some of the other posters mean (such as LA) is that they do not intentionally deceive in a manner that will cause harm to others, and in some cases are more forthcoming and make a greater effort to ensure that they make the maximum effort - in spite of their normal human natures - to achieve their ideal. (If it wasn't "in our nature" to manage perceptions, why should this require such effort?)

This is admirable, and I do understand them to mean that they believe that they come very close to their ideal. As I've often said in other contexts, their words and actions are probably "close enough for government work".

But to honestly (

) believe they achieve this goal is ... idealistic ...

Firm

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Post #: 42

RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/13/2007 4:53:17 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Treasure, you and Firmhand always produce great, thought provoking threads together.

Sure you can more or less prove we will all lie in some situation. That means we all lie to some degree as we go about our egocentric existences. (For some reason, I also really believe LA has never told a lie in her life.) In any case, what I do is look at what is important to the person I am with. There are common sense factors in a relationship that most would consider central to trust.

Insincerity may be a better way of saying what happens when we try to deceive someone. If I omit necessary information or slant information in a way that obscures facts, I’m being insincere. Large amounts of insincerity are damaging to trust.

For instance, if I am truly seeking to move into the poly arena and she has a hard limit with that, then I’m being insincere withholding information and it may be one of the reasons I wouldn’t mention something like that even in fantasy erotic talk. Fantasies shouldn’t matter to either of you if there is no likelihood of them happening. Fantasies are not the truth, but they are not lies either.

It would be far more honest if I wanted poly to tell her directly and let her decide if our relationship was important enough that she would violate her hard limit. Her trust for me may even be enhanced by my openness or it could be permanently dealt a blow because she believed I would never go there.

Thanks, Steel, and excellent points.

Firm

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RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/13/2007 4:58:04 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat

for me, what it boils down to "am i able to present myself before my gods and not be ashamed of my behavior?" and act accordingly.

Exactly.

Firm

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Post #: 44

RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/13/2007 6:57:46 PM

Bobkgin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I know not of one soul who lives their life in complete honesty... or even just one area of their life. We all to some degree fib, exaggerate, placate, backtrack, equivocate, obscure, prevaricate, fabricate, mislead, and yes... outright lie.

Insufficient evidence to support the generalization.

Simply put, there are over six billion people on the planet. You don't know nearly enough of them, including those outside your culture/geographical area for your generalization to have merit.

The most you could say is you don't believe anyone is honest, based on your (limited) experience.

Read carefully Bob, i think you will find treasure stated 'she knew not one soul' so really there is no generalisation as she is referring to the circle of people she knows.

"We all ... " is referring to only "the circle of people she knows"?

Fair enough.

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Post #: 45

RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... - 9/14/2007 11:25:15 AM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

"We all ... " is referring to only "the circle of people she knows"?

Fair enough.

Misturbation was essentially correct. My observations of human nature are made based on those individuals I personally know, but that experience is coupled with the knowledge I've accumulated in my life as well as intuition. I was careful to use the word "we" as I did not wish to exclude myself from my statement.

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with FirmhandKY in that I believe it is in man's nature to use "managing other's perceptions"... whether they actively and consciously do so or not.

I do understand the concept of avoiding generalizations, however I also feel that it can be taken too far. Generalizing does not always automatically negate expected exceptions to a rule. I also don't think that every comment and opinion needs to be grounded in verifiable scientific fact as some truths can be discovered from mere empirical evidence and intuitive logic. Of course, quality of the opinion or comment relies heavily on the perceptiveness and ability of the person making the observation.

Your mileage may vary.