RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


Owner59 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:44:38 PM)

  Fair enough. Could you clarify what you think socialism  is, to you?

Most of our friends in the world,and most of our trading partners are socialists, in nature.Socialism shouldn`t be demonized,like it has been,IMO.




ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 11:24:30 PM)

SusanofO...this has been an interesting path to cross....

quote:

They are trying to compete with "Medi-spas" who do things like laser hair removal and simply stay alive in this particular niche,  For the time being, my opinion is that this is how they are choosing to do it. The razors are getting bigger and supposedly better, and there are more of them. It might not work, but they'll try it until it costs them more than they make by selling them. 


yeah, okay. Your probably right. Though men don't go to medi-spa's very often and that was my perspective, they could be recouping their female losses...and it IS my choice to have a mach 4, and God-knows what next...for the record I had a beard before my Madame made me cut it off, is there a way I can blame her for this without betraying her? :)

quote:

Well, IMO before the 1980s there simply weren't that many companies that existed that were large enough to "buy out" lots of other companies (and some of them were doing it, even back then). If capitalism hadn't grown to its current level, maybe would not have occurred. Maybe it's reached a crisis maturation level, and the stock market will crash soon (I've heard that predicted, too). Time will tell I guess. 


I do think there were buyouts before then. Jazz record labels, oil, dupont chemical, and railroads come to mind. I wish I remembered more about what I learned about robber barons, trust-busters, and the enacting of monopoly laws in the nineteenth century. Buyouts are probably worse now, I wouldnt argue with you there, but they arn't new.

'crisis maturation level' is a nice way to put it, and I guess thats always the question...when will the next really black tuesday be?

quote:

Consumers also want cheap cocaine, that doesn't mean deregulation is good for anyone save a few cartel kingpins. Regulations are there to protect both consumers and bussiness from greed-driven bad decsions. Unfortunatly, humanity is so filled with greed that the entire economy would collapse if at least some measure of greed-protection wasn't in place. I'm not sure I understand your point here. I never stated that regulation wasn't a good idea. It's pretty well known that government regulation already exists in some arenas - electical energy utlity companies are a good example of this. I know we have a legal system. 


yeah, that was kinda convoluted. sorry about that. My point was that both producers and consumers have to be protected from themselves on both individual and institutional levels. Not all buying/bussiness decsions are rational and regulation keeps the market stable despite this. Most bubbles are the result of irrationally buying, finacing, and producing that which is ether un-needed or buying too much of it/paying too much for it and economically unhealthy in the long run.

quote:

Sounds like it could work - "Tougher" how, exactly? One problem is that some companies U.S. citizens think are U.S. run maybe are - but are actually incorporated in another country altogether - which means international law applies, in some cases. I agree that in some conpanies, CEO salaries are out of control. There is currently a proposition before Congress to regulate them to either 70  or 100 times (or maybe its 200 times) the lowest salary of any employee (I forget which - I heard this on the news the other night). I think one needs to be careful how a company applies any dis-incentives if it is going to be equated with breaking the law - what is the long-term effect here? That is what concerns me. Not 6 months from now - more like 10-20 years down the road in an economic sense, as far as how it might be likely to affect the entire U.S. economy. 


Regulating maxium salaries seems like a great idea...hope that happens. I'm afraid though that too much of a executives profit comes from stock value and bonus's-will the bonus's be affected?

All corporate-level mergers and buyouts have to be pre-approved by the government. A Corp can't just buy everything there is-the bussiness's have to have something to do with one another. Rupert Murdoch convincing the Fed that Newspapers have something to do with Cable Networks have something to do with Radio-stations was a big precedent-setting case in this. I think it would behoove the nation to be tougher to gain this approval.

The fines/dis-incentives I was reffering to wouldn't forbid people from laying workers off and harming the bussiness years down the road-it would only make sure nobody made any EXTRA profit during layoff years, which is often the case. My thinking is that CEO's and board members make millions every time there is a massive layoff, because the rise in stock value effects them greatly. By taking away this 'layoff bonus' it would ensure that said layoffs were a result of bussiness strategy and not personal profit.

quote:

I still don't see how anyone really can expect them not to want to re-locate labor overseas if this is the case, and they have a for-profit motive. They have an obligation to their stockholders. Maybe all the Americans who have retirement bennies in Ford stock (and its a Blue-chip, so its probably a lot, IMO) should maybe sell it, instead. I think that might send a rather loud message (plus, be faster). 


-if outsourcing were the only way for industry heads and controlling-interest stockholders to keep their jobs next year rather than simply doubling profits this year, than let them fire americans and outsource. I just don't think their bank accounts should jump because of it. You could limit the majority-share-holders ( 'the Board' who has a decisive say in things like layoffs already) from making a profit from such layoffs while allowing the minor share-holders to retain this profit jump.

But yeah, movements to sell stock of objectionable companies in order to achieve a public goal sounds like another really good idea. It WOULD work faster than government. Like a strike by consumers instead of workers. I'm not sure if we should call these sellers "finacial activist's" or just "martyrs", though.


--its late, im not ignoring your message, but returning to it tomarrow....have a good sleep...




celticlord2112 -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 12:12:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
This man on tv who ran the FBI for years said people don't realize how close the U.S. has really come to another attack on the level of 9-11 since it happened. That's because it hasn't been publicized - because they don't want some terrorist cells to know how closely they are being watched. It was kind of spooky, listening to him talk on tv today.


Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Marcus Porcius Cato's eternal question:  "who watches the watchmen?"

My question:  What sort of lame-brained, half-assed, moronic, never been in a real fight sort of defensive strategy is it to not let the bad guy know he's being watched?  If I'm walking through a rough neighborhood late at night, and someone looks as if he might value my wallet a bit more than my life, I'm eyeballing him very obviously and very often.  I want him to know that I know where he is, what he looks like, and what he's doing.  I want him to know that I cannot prevent him from attacking--but I can prevent him from attacking me unawares.

Claims like what you cite are at best an indication of a government badly out of its depth in dealing with terrorists, and at worst a government cynically and maliciously manipulating terrorism in order to frighten a poorly informed public into acceptance of its relentless quest for ever greater power and control over our lives.

In either circumstance, shame on the FBI for not telling us about the "near misses" and other victories they have had against terrorists.  Shame on them for encouraging fear and suspicion as public virtues.  Shame on them for forgetting that the bedrock of American government is supposed to be "We The People".

And shame on us for letting them get away with such shoddy and beknighted service.




meatcleaver -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 1:12:03 AM)

My great uncle who had fought in WWI once told me 'patriotism is for idiots'. I think he is more right now than I thought he was then when I never questioned anything he said. Patriotism is a tool used by the rich and powerful to dupe the idiot mass into following their agenda.

What is a country? An area of land? A group of people? An ideology? A constitution? All of those things? There are areas of England I love because it has a resonance with my past. There are people I love in England as I do here and in other countries. There are also people I dislike and depise and the thought of putting on a uniform and defending them is just not on my agenda. The constitution is just a framework in which laws are made and there are a variety around the world that I could easily live under. No western country has a long history of liberty and democracy though patriotic national myths say otherwise.

Patriotism to me, is for dullards. I'm a citizen of the world and I wouldn't let my romantic attachment to the country of my birth get in the way of that when it comes to fundementals.

I still want England to win the European Nations Cup however.




FullfigRIMaam -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 6:12:50 AM)

Louis Black said it, and I'm paraphrasing...  We're the only country in the world that feels like going around announcing "we're the greatest country in the world."  Imagine living with someone who wakes up everyday and tells you he's superior, and in relation to him, you might as well disappear.   How charming would you find him?   I know this is a D/s board, but step outside of collarme thinking for a moment, and tell me you wouldn't think he's the most obnoxious human being evah!
Of course one can be proud of and love this land, why not (rhetorical, don't answer, you smart asses)?!    M




SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 7:41:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
My question:  What sort of lame-brained, half-assed, moronic, never been in a real fight sort of defensive strategy is it to not let the bad guy know he's being watched?  If I'm walking through a rough neighborhood late at night, and someone looks as if he might value my wallet a bit more than my life, I'm eyeballing him very obviously and very often.  I want him to know that I know where he is, what he looks like, and what he's doing.  I want him to know that I cannot prevent him from attacking--but I can prevent him from attacking me unawares.

Fine - but my quesiton is practical, not idealogical: Just how much decent information on their whereabouts and plans do you think you are actually going to get - when they think you are listening in on their communications?  

- Susan




SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 8:09:47 AM)

Owner59: The U.S. isn't a Socialist country, IMO it is a very Capitalist country, which has managed to put a few programs in place which it has agreed its citizens need, wth the help of a Federal and de-centralized government (like Social Security, and public education, for example). You may diagree, which of course is your prerogative. If it was a Socialist country, than its economy would not revolve around the fluctuations of the NASDAQ stock market, as much as it definitely tends to do, IMO.

- Susan




pahunkboy -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/12/2007 8:19:53 AM)

coffee tastes better in America. God bless America!




SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 8:24:06 AM)

ChainsandFreedom: I think I noted (briefly) that there probably were buy-outs before the 80's (just not as many - it was only one sentence. maybe you didn't see it in my post). I completely agree with you about CEO salaries, and am all for a law to limit their size. It isn't necessary at all that they be the size they are, IMO. Even Warren Bufett, the world's "stock market guru" who lives in my home-town, has publically de-cried the size of many CEO salaries. I am not a fan of "Corporate raiding" - but I think any laws limiting their use need to be carefully thought out.

Unless I am mistaken (or misunderstood what I heard on the cable news), there is a legislative bill in front of Congress now on the topic of limiting the size of CEO salaries.

Re: "Corporate raiding"- there is a difference (theorectically) between someone who is enlarging the size of their holdings, and yet still providing a useful societal service, in the form of a proliferation of product choices to consumers (which IMO can stimulate competition - no matter what anyone wants to believe - and  is a fundamental of a capitalistic economy), and someone who is simply destroying companies that maybe took years to build, simply to increase their wealth.

And in some cases, the result may not be immediately apparent, and may take years to "flesh out" - business reactions to the economy, and new areas of enterprise (as the desired result of a corporate take-over) can take years to build, if new, as well. I see this situation getting kind of sticky, as far as always being able to discern the difference, and results here. IMO, this distinction tends to be personalized in many cases, and can often be a "fine-line" to discern.

In any case, there is a SEC, and they've become more adept at self-policing in the past few years. Let's hope they keep it up. Maybe a few new laws do need to be put into place , as far as this kind of thing goes (and maybe it will happen).  

- Susan




Owner59 -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 8:25:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Owner59: The U.S. isn't a Socialist country, IMO it is a very Capitalist country, which has managed to out a few programs in place which it has agreed its citizens need, wth the help of a Federal and de-centralized government (like Social Security, and public education, for example). You may diagree, which of course is your prerogative. If it was a Socialist country, than its economy would not revolve around the fluctuations of the NASDAQ stock market, as much as it definitely tends to do, IMO.

- Susan


"(the US) IMO it is a very Capitalist country,"
 
 
  True,and  China is also very Capitalist.
 
They also have a stock and commodity exchange,and are growing a ten percent a year,to our poultry 3or 4 %.
 
Capitalism is no panacea.
 
Without the Federal Reserve and other regulatory/overseeing/auditing institutions(both public and private),our economic system would be a free for all,resembling "Enron",in every facet and quality .




SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 8:33:40 AM)

Cwner59: I don't seem to remember mentioning I am a total non-fan of any sort of governmental regulation (did you read this enire thread?) Well, I really appreciate most facets, and advantages of Capitalism.

The citizens in much of China also live on an average salary of about $140 a month (if that) and have much of their career choices (and even their pro-creative and religious choices) dictated to them by their government. They are slowly becoming fans of Capitalism (in the larger cities), in a very limited sense, you are correct (probably, IMO, because they ar so sick of extreme Socialism, or Communism, depending on your definition of the regime they've lived under for so long). But most of the financial gain from their economy, and its use, still is controlled by the government there, not its individual citizens. Over 80% of their expansion in the 1990s was due to foreign investors using their country to manufacture foreign goods (China makes most of the world's children's toys, for example).

You are of course, entitled to your own opinion, re: How advantageous this is for the citizens there, or the citizens in the U.S.


But IMO, China is home to some of the ugliest labor practices in the world. And I am very grateful I don't live there. Take a look:


  • This essay has been excerpted from "War for Wealth: The Global Grab for Power and Prosperity", Germany's best- selling book by Gabor Steingart. 

  • In Germany, the obligation to redistribute wealth is explicitly stated in the constitution. It stipulates that society must use energy created at the productive center to warm those who might otherwise be freezing at the margins. The United States is similar: The government, together with the respective companies, provides a social net for the firms' current and former employees. Indeed, the biggest pension funds in the world are to be found in the United States.

    In China, the state has another function entirely: It acts as a firewall between society's center and those at the fringes in order to ensure that nothing from the boiling core is ever allowed to cool at the outer edges. The retreat of state-controlled industry meant bidding farewell to the social net -- a notion Karl Marx would have despised.

  • When Deng Xiaoping took over leadership of China's Communist Party in the mid-1970s, he described the country as being in an "advanced state of socialism." But he didn't like what he saw and instead decided to set the country back a step to what he described as the "first stage of socialism." The reforms he pushed through ensured that virtually all of the country's social pacts were broken.

  • Life-long employment contracts were replaced with temporary contracts, and firing workers became a possibility. If employees refused to buy the apartments their companies had provided for them, they were simply forced out. In the private sector, social welfare was ignored right from the outset. It was left up to the family -- or nobody at all -- to take on the social responsibility the government and companies had abandoned. Since then the state has stood ready to defend the separation of the haves from the have-nots with force. And the China of today is home to the ugliest labor market practices in the world.

  • Giving property more rights than people
    Still, the Chinese Communist Party listens to the desires of its subjects and even pays lip service to them. In its 11th five-year plan, which provides an economic and social blueprint for China from 2006-2011, Beijing laid out its goal of building "a harmonious socialist society" by 2010.
  • But the truth is that the Communist Party has just set up the biggest subsidy program for capitalists the country has ever witnessed. Such support existed before, but in secret, almost conspiratorially. It is now part of the government's stated goals.
  • The Chinese communists are making no secret of their shift in mentality. The constitution has even been amended -- a message to everyone that this is no reform, but a revolution. Until March 2004, the state had been responsible for the "guidance, control and regulation" of the private sector. The state was the big brother that disciplined and badgered private companies -- it carried the carrots and sticks. The new constitution has, for the first time, declared private property to be a private matter.

    Property is now defined as inviolable. Even inheritance will be protected in China in the future. Article 11 of the recently approved constitution even calls on the state to serve the private sector and to provide "encouragement and support" to the capitalists. The redistribution of privately earned wealth for the good of society, as the German constitution stipulates, is thus transformed into a state responsibility for protecting the private sphere. Capitalists are the new ruling class and property in China is now bestowed with more rights than the people. Indeed, no other country in the world courts its entrepreneurs to the extent that China does.

    Death has even been accepted as an unpleasant but inevitable side-effect of rapid Chinese economic growth. According to Western estimates, there were around 100,000 fatal workplace accidents in China in 2005 -- some 10,000 of those the result of mining accidents. These are the largest such fatality figures that any country has ever reported. Another dimension often brushed off as a side effect is child labor. To promote exports, a significant part of the economic boom, around 7 million Chinese children are sent out to work. In Asia as a whole, that figure is around 130 million. They weave carpets, carry heavy loads, build plastic toys -- but most of all, they drive down prices.

    ved
    Reproduction only allowed with the permission of SPIEGELnet GmbH






    Advertisement
    SEEKING A PARTNER?




  • SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 9:35:21 AM)

    IMO, Maybe China is where the U.S. was about the beginning of the 19th century, in terms of having any social conscience at all related to Capitalistic development in their economy. And I am sorry to say seeing this makes me proud to be an American, and not Chinese.

    - Susan




    pahunkboy -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 10:19:25 AM)

    the nieghbor whom i get along with- told me during ww2- my comments would have been viewed as treason. she says everything is in jesuss hands. i can get along with anyone,,, so i dont go at it with her. i try to learn from her,. as perhaps im the one who is wrong.




    SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 10:23:57 AM)

    Well, she may be right about what people back then expected, at times, re: Patriotic sentiments people expect from their neighbors and relatives. I remember my mother telling me that once when she was a small child, she told my grandmother she "wanted to be a Communist when she grew up" - she was just tossing around the word because she heard it on the radio - she had no idea what it meant. My grandmother appparently slapped her really hard for saying that. My other was only about five years old, at the time. I suppose there are still people who do that kind of thing today, but IMO, I am guessing it isn't nearly as often.

    - Susan




    philosophy -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/12/2007 2:35:03 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: caitlyn
     
    No offense intended, but the 'whistle blowers' of all our ills and failings, are just as responsible for those ills and failings as the people that wrap themselves in the flag to justify them. They are responsible, because they help dig the afore mentioned trench. 


    ......i'm not sure i agree with this. If whistle blowers are as responsible for the events they point to as the perpetrators, then aren't police officers as guilty of the crimes they prevent as the criminals? Let's take a fictional example.....say a state governer who's caught by a whistle blower embezzelling funds. How else can the criminal be stopped if whistle blowers shouldn't..er..blow their whistle?




    celticlord2112 -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 5:49:28 PM)

    quote:

    Fine - but my quesiton is practical, not idealogical: Just how much decent information on their whereabouts and plans do you think you are actually going to get - when they think you are listening in on their communications?


    I don't give a damn about their whereabouts or their plans.  That information is necessary for offense, not defense.  If you know the targets, you know where the enemy will be, and that's where you organize your defenses.






    SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 6:35:05 PM)

    celticlord2112: Thanks for the reply. I already stated my opinion on his earlier, and no disrespect is intended by my remarks, so please don't assume any. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about this, certainly. I don't see much wrong with it if it actually prevents an event as horrible as a 9-11. I am not sure why it would ever be necessary to do without a warrant - but if it was, and there is a question - then it simply becomes a "Lesser of two evils" question (for me).

    And if someone asks me if I'd rather see X number of U.S. citizens (or others) dead due to a Terrorist attack, or else have my phone tapped unknowingly - I am afraid there is just no question (for me) of which of these two possibilites wins out (in my mind). People are free to disagree with me on this - and I am quite sure plenty do.

    I lose patience with people who think that catching Terrorists, or tracking them down, should necessarily be easy, or always require "conventional" methods, somehow. I would also bet my last dollar  that if another 9-11 occurred tommorrow, and it could have been prevented due to one warrantless phone wire-tap, that many of the same folks bitching about how very wrong that is, would soon be haranguing the Bush administration, and the FBI for not "doing more to prevent it". I grow weary of all of the high and mighty talk, from people willing to bitch about how bad and wrong we are - simply for trying to protect ourselves (and many of whom, btw, are already blaming Bush for not preventing 9-11).

    I have not forgotten the horror of 9-11, or of thousands of helpless people roaming the streets of NYC, wondering if they would ever see their loved ones again, and having no idea what was happening to them, and what they ever did to deserve such a fate. I am pretty sure many of them haven't either.

    *Please do not attempt to tie this in with the Iraq war. I already believe that 9-11 had nothing to do with why we are in Iraq. I think we shouldn't be there at all. But I am concerned about another Terrorist attack. I am not a particular fan of Bush, or his administration. These Terrorist people were around long before Bush ever took office.

    IMO, if catching Terrorists happens to include a few things that are less than savory, (like unsavory "Interrogation tactics",  for instance)  and doing using them prevents thousands of people from dying in another 9-11, then I say we should go for it. Sorry if that doesn't sound  "feminine" enough, or like I have no morals. I do. I also believe in self-defense - but in any case, it is the way I feel about it.

    When and if it boils down to "Terrorists or us"  - sorry, but I vote for us. And  apparently, in some cases that is the unhappy choice we may need to make. There are people who just don't want to have to make it, that's all. If it boils down to that kind of choice, then I vote for staying alive. We are not dealing with people like you and me. We are dealing with people who  appear to fervently hate us, who have training camps for their troops specifically training people how to kills us, and who will apparently stop at nothing to see us dead. I think 9-11 should have been enough evidence of that. It was certainly enough evidence of that  for me.

    I am upset about the U.S (and "Coalition troops") being in Iraq. I don't think we should be there, and have concluded that 9-11 had nothing to do with our war Iraq, so please don't include any mention of that in this discussion.

    But as far as anyone who seems to want to just forget 9-11 happened, and thinks dealing with Terrorists is going to be easy, or we "should have caught them by now" , or that all of our tactics for dealing with them will somehow be blessed, and we'll be miraculously saved from a similar attack, as long as we play by some rules they already obviously seem more than willing to ignore, I say: Good luck catching them.

    No disrespect intended
    (I mean that)- and that is just my "two cents".

    - Susan




    samboct -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 7:40:51 PM)

    "IMO, if catching Terrorists happens to include a few things that are less than savory, (like unsavory "Interrogation tactics",  for instance)  and doing using them prevents thousands of people from dying in another 9-11, then I say we should go for it. Sorry if that doesn't sound  "feminine" enough, or like I have no morals. I do. I also believe in self-defense - but in any case, it is the way I feel about it."

    Same argument that the Nazis used for keeping the Communists off the streets.  And got any UMs?  How would you like it if they were ordered to use "interogation tactics" on someone who was innocent?

    While you decry the efficacy of "conventional" tactics- if the people at the top had acted in a responsible fashion, it's likely that the 9/11 plot would have been nipped in the bud.  The Certified Flight Instructor CFI who had several Muslim men requesting that they just be taught to fly a commercial aircraft but didn't need to learn to take off and land was diligent enough to pass this information along to his local FBI office- who investigated, concluded that something was up- and bucked it up the chain of command- where somehow, it got sat on.  Sounds very similar to Pearl Harbor- there were plenty of warnings- but when the Japanese attacked, our planes were on the ground, unrefueled, parked wingtip to wingtip (easy to guard against sabotage which was insignificant- but dispersal was a well known concept to minimize losses from air attack)- and without any ammo in their guns.  I'm sorry, but I don't want to sacrifice my freedoms and my rights to protect the incompetents in the current administration who failed to guard against a threat where there was adequate warning.  No, I don't believe in conspiracies- but I do believe in incompetence-especially at the highest levels.  So I strongly disagree that this administration should get more tools which are primarily used against its citizens to guard against terrorists when they haven't done an adequate job with what they've got.

    In short-I think the secrecy that this administration claims is necessary to protect against terrorists is really to hide their own incompetence and stupidity, and we would all be better served by questioning critically the administration's claim that they need these tools for "protecting" us.  Living in a free country entails more risk than a fascist country (street crime during the Nazis and in Soviet Russia was far less than in the West)- but that's a tradeoff that I'm willing to accept.  If you're happier trading security for freedom (I forget who came up with the quote that individuals who trade freedom for security wind up with neither), that's your choice, but I'll fight you tooth and nail.

    Sam




    MissSCD -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/12/2007 7:45:24 PM)

    I usually express my patriotic side  each Presidential election. 

    Regards, MissSCD




    SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 7:52:36 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: samboct

    Same argument that the Nazis used for keeping the Communists off the streets.  And got any UMs?  How would you like it if they were ordered to use "interogation tactics" on someone who was innocent? What alternatives are you proposing? Specifically.

    And war is any better? WWI? WWII? How is killing people point-blank with a machine guns suddenly so honorable - simply because we've decided someone else  is "the enemy" (or if they've already proven they are?)  Like none of these kinds of tactics were ever used on enemies in WWI, WWII or Vietnam?

    I'm not glorifying it - I am saying if it will help catch them, and that means I am alive tommorrow, instead of dead- then I sure know what my choice is going to be.

    If the people at the top had acted in a responsible fashion, it's likely that the 9/11 plot would have been nipped in the bud.  The Certified Flight Instructor CFI who had several Muslim men requesting that they just be taught to fly a commercial aircraft but didn't need to learn to take off and land was diligent enough to pass this information along to his local FBI office- who investigated, concluded that something was up- and bucked it up the chain of command- where somehow, it got sat on. 

    This is really old news by now (and I don't think it's necessarily true. Sometimes, bad stuff just happens, no matter what anyone does to prevent it.) In any case - And so?...It is getting tiresome to hear, and doesn't really relate to what we can do to catch these people today, IMO.

    I do believe in incompetence-especially at the highest levels.  So I strongly disagree that this administration should get more tools which are primarily used against its citizens to guard against terrorists when they haven't done an adequate job with what they've got. See the above comment. I agree they were maybe incompetent. And? What's your specific plan, for catching these folks, btw?

    In short-I think the secrecy that this administration claims is necessary to protect against terrorists is really to hide their own incompetence and stupidity - yes, that's why there is a CIA to begin with - and why we always know what they are doing. I think we should blast our plans for catching these people all over the network news and magazines - so they can be sure to avoid us, and we maybe never catch them. After all "the people have a  right to know." 
     
    and we would all be better served by questioning critically the administration's claim that they need these tools for "protecting" us.  Living in a free country entails more risk than a fascist country (street crime during the Nazis and in Soviet Russia was far less than in the West)- but that's a tradeoff that I'm willing to accept. I will believe we are in a "Fascist dictatorship" when you can no longer post comments like this on this website message board - and furthermore, when this message board no longer exists. If you want to see a country that really oppresses its citizens, take a look at China or Pakistan. Or Afghanistan.  

    If you're happier trading security for freedom (I forget who came up with the quote that individuals who trade freedom for security wind up with neither), that's your choice, but I'll fight you tooth and nail.

    Fine, but it sounds similar to high and mighty BS (to me). I'd love to see you in a room, with some Terrorist with a machine gun pointed at your head - that you could have been prevented from encountering, if only someone had maybe listened into some phone conversation of a probable criminal who should have been arrested long ago to begin with, saying the same thing (actually, I wouldn't like to see that - but you get my drift.) No offense intended.

    Sam





    Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>

    Valid CSS!




    Collarchat.com © 2025
    Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
    4.492188E-02