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SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/12/2007 11:25:53 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: samboct
"Where is your proof that phone wire-taps (with or without a warrant) have not prevented more Terrorist attacks?"
Same proof that my asteroid shield of aluminum foil over my head works-haven't been hit by an asteroid have I? If the FBI is unwilling to let the citizenry know about the terrorist attacks that have been thwarted by these phone taps, my assumption is that their evidence is dubious at best. The terrorist certainly know their attacks have been foiled- why can't we? This is not evidence they have stopped trying to terrorize us - that we've caught a few, isn't any proof to me that they are "done".
**Why do I always have to look up this stuff myself? Ya'll do have access to the Internet, dontcha? Here is one example (attached below).
Actually, Flight 93 showed how short lived the tactic of using airliners as suicide weapons was. It was a novel idea while it lasted for what- less than 2 hours? **I notice as well, that they are all dead. Thanks, but No thanks. Don't you get it? They are willing to die, simply for the opportunity to kill us. How do you fight someone like that?
Cut off their oil money, and they're just a bunch of angry young men wearing dirty towels on their heads, but we don't seem to want to do that. "We've already done quite a bit of that."
Nonsense. Oil revenues into Iraq are $120M-$140M (maybe $160M /day at $80/barrel) per day. With troops that can't read or speak the language, how on earth do you think that at least some of that money isn't being diverted to the terrorists? If they can get 1% (which is probably a wild underestimate) that's $400 M/yr. A terrorist operation like 9/11 was estimated at $270-$400k (excluding training in Saudi Arabia.) We're NOT stopping their money supply. We need to cut off the flow of oil exports out of Iraq- which of course is counter the administrations rationale for going to war in the first place. ***If you are gonna rant about this, at least provide a source or two. I can get counter-evidence for this in about 30 seconds, on the Internet. But unless you have the energy to do it, I am not going to do it, either. But I also am not gonna buy your claim this is true.
"I don't equate security with "hysteria" - regardless of the odds of it happening again (which, IMO, nobody can seem to predict with any accuracy anyway). These are often the same people who bitch that Bush "didn't do enough" to prevent 9-11. I am tired of hearing it."
Sorry- but now you're unhappy with how events transpired, and if I play amateur psychologist for a moment- your own actions to these events. If you're demanding we trade our freedoms for "security", that's exactly what this administration and the terrorists both want. ** If you are so convinced that our government is 100% corrupt, why not just pack your bags and leave the U.S. If you are gonna continue to bitch like this - at least provide an alternative plan to foil Terrorists. So far, you haven't done that once - and I've mentioned it 3 times now.
We face far greater hazards on our highways on a daily basis. The difference is we understand these risks. The administrations actions of not telling us what they're doing and what the terrorists are up to is what's fanning an inflamed perception of risk- another word for this is hysteria. We're more afraid of the possibility of a terrorist attack than an actual attack itself. **Makes plenty sense to me. There is plenty of information, re: What our government is doing to fight Terrorism in the report below (see the part that says "Response to Terrorism"). It's been available on the net for aboout 5 years now. And your fool-proof plan for foiling Terorrists involves ____________(what was it again?)
Not a good place to be. Maybe, but it strikes me as more effective, as a response, than bone-headed complacency (or a failure to look up any pertinent information on a topic you seem to wish to debate, on the Internet, or elsewhere).
Sam
07 October 2005
White House Issues List of 10 Foiled al-Qaida Plots
Foiled plots targeted U.S. government, tourists
In a major address outlining his strategy on the war against terrorism delivered to the National Endowment for Democracy October 6, President Bush said that 10 major al-Qaida plots were disrupted since September 11, 2001 -- two involving a plan to use commercial airliners to attack targets on the East and West Coasts of the United States. (See transcript.)
The president said the United States and its partners had also foiled at least five additional al-Qaida efforts to case potential U.S. government sites and locations frequented by tourists.
For more on U.S. policy, see Response to Terrorism.
The following October 6 White House fact sheet offers background to the president's references:
(begin fact sheet)
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
October 6, 2005
Plots, Casings, And Infiltrations Referenced In President Bush's Remarks On The War On Terror
"Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least 10 serious al-Qaida terrorist plots since September 11 -- including three al-Qaida plots to attack inside the United States. We have stopped at least five more al-Qaida efforts to case targets in the United States or infiltrate operatives into our country."
10 PLOTS
1. The West Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2002 the U.S. disrupted a plot to attack targets on the West Coast of the United States using hijacked airplanes. The plotters included at least one major operational planner involved in planning the events of 9/11.
2. The East Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2003 the U.S. and a partner disrupted a plot to attack targets on the East Coast of the United States using hijacked commercial airplanes.
3. The Jose Padilla Plot: In May 2002 the U.S. disrupted a plot that involved blowing up apartment buildings in the United States. One of the plotters, Jose Padilla, also discussed the possibility of using a "dirty bomb" in the U.S.
4. The 2004 U.K. Urban Targets Plot: In mid-2004 the U.S. and partners disrupted a plot that involved urban targets in the United Kingdom. These plots involved using explosives against a variety of sites.
5. The 2003 Karachi Plot: In the Spring of 2003 the U.S. and a partner disrupted a plot to attack Westerners at several targets in Karachi, Pakistan.
6. The Heathrow Airport Plot: In 2003 the U.S. and several partners disrupted a plot to attack Heathrow Airport [outside London] using hijacked commercial airliners. The planning for this attack was undertaken by a major 9/11 operational figure.
7. The 2004 U.K. Plot: In the Spring of 2004 the U.S. and partners, using a combination of law enforcement and intelligence resources, disrupted a plot to conduct large-scale bombings in the U.K.
8. The 2002 Arabian Gulf Shipping Plot: In late 2002 and 2003 the U.S. and a partner nation disrupted a plot by al-Qa'ida operatives to attack ships in the Arabian Gulf.
9. The 2002 Straits of Hormuz Plot: In 2002 the U.S. and partners disrupted a plot to attack ships transiting the Straits of Hormuz.
10. The 2003 Tourist Site Plot: In 2003 the U.S. and a partner nation disrupted a plot to attack a tourist site outside the United States.
FIVE CASINGS AND INFILTRATIONS
1. The U.S. Government & Tourist Sites Tasking: In 2003 and 2004, an individual was tasked by al-Qa'ida to case important U.S. government and tourist targets within the United States.
2. The Gas Station Tasking: In approximately 2003, an individual was tasked to collect targeting information on U.S. gas stations and their support mechanisms on behalf of a senior al-Qa'ida planner.
3. Iyman Faris & the Brooklyn Bridge: In 2003, and in conjunction with a partner nation, the U.S. government arrested and prosecuted Iyman Faris, who was exploring the destruction of the Brooklyn Bridge in New York. Faris ultimately pleaded guilty to providing material support to al-Qa'ida and is now in a federal correctional institution.
4. 2001 Tasking: In 2001, al-Qa'ida sent an individual to facilitate post-September 11 attacks in the U.S. U.S. law enforcement authorities arrested the individual.
5. 2003 Tasking: In 2003, an individual was tasked by an al-Qa'ida leader to conduct reconnaissance on populated areas in the U.S.
(end fact sheet)
(Distributed by the Bureau of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
And this is just up to 2005 - my guess is there are more by now.
- Susan
[Mod Note: images removed]
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