Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen?

Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 8:59:20 AM)
With all of this 9-11 remembrance, I am remembering that I do love my country. If someone wants to think that means I feel I am a superior American, then they are wrong. It does mean I am patriotic, and I do love the U.S. I am really not sure why this has to be necessarily tied to the ideas that I - 1) Love what President Bush does, Or, 2) This means I believe America is "superior" to another country. Is it still possible to feel patriotic as a U.S. citizen, and not be condemned for it? Why should that be considered "wrong" by anyone? Don't other people feel this way, ever? Guess it's sort of a rhetorical question. I am not trying to start an argument, or seek explanations as to why people jump to conclusions if one mentions they feel patriotic about living in the U.S. - I guess I am just saying I do feel patriotic, and am not ashamed of it, and see no reason why I should be ashamed to feel some loyalty to the U.S. I live here. My family lives here. There are many things to love about it, and I am not ashamed to be an American. I know there are things our government has done that many (including me, at times) may not be happy about - but overall, I think I live in a wonderful nation, and consider myself extremely lucky to be here. I am pretty sure other people from other countries sometimes feel the same way about where they are from, and even people who live in particular U.S. states sometimes feel loyalty to their own state. I don't think it's that weird an emotion to have. - Susan

philosophy -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:07:45 AM)
..the problem comes because patriotism has been devalued by those who would 'wrap themselves in the flag' just to further their own agenda. A few years back the Union Flag was co-opted by racist neo nazi groups in the UK. By so doing they made acts of average patriotism seem linked to their agenda. In my opinion a true patriot will criticise a sitting government if they feel inclined to do so, because what they are patriotic about isn't just todays country but the reason behind the existence of that country.

SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:10:43 AM)
You've got good points there, philosophy. Being able to criticize it, is actually one reason I think it's a great place to live -we have the freedom to do things like that. I realize many other countries have this freedom as well, but many don't, and I do feel lucky that way. Lately though, I feel if I express this sometimes, I will be labelled as feeling like a "superior American". That is Poppycock - I am simply happy where I am living. I see not much wrong with that. - Susan

philosophy -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:14:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO You've got good points there, philosophy. Being able to criticize it, is actually one reason I think it's a great place to live -we have the freedom to do things like that. - Susan All the more reason to take a stand against a sitting government that paints criticism as being unpatriotic.

SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:18:37 AM)
Oh I don't really even listen to those people. I actuallly think my neighborhood dry cleaner probably affects my day to day life more than some of the idiots in Washington, D.C. do. Some of them I appreciate - some not. I am politically aware - but more on a grass roots level I guess. Although I have never failed to vote in a local or a national election - not once since I turned 18 years old. I always, always vote - and I read up on the candidates before I vote, too. - Susan

Owner59 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:20:23 AM)
I feel the love of country, manifests itself in different ways for liberals and for conservatives. I`ll use the analogy of a parent/child relationship. First off,both love the other, deeper than can be expressed,but they are different types of "love". A liberal,like a parent,loves their child.They praise the child when they do well.But they correct the child when wrong,guide them when they go astray,and punish them when they mis-behave.It`s tough love,and w/ out it,the child is doomed.It is the most important type of love a parent can have. On the other hand,for the conservative,their love country is much like the love a child feels towards their parent.The love is un-questioning and without condition,right or wrong.To a child,their parent can do no wrong. To a conservitive,their country can do no wrong. Hell,you`re mom can be a murderer,and the 5 year old is still going to adore her.It`s like that w/ conservitives/neo-conservitives and most republicans. So yes, you can be a patriot, and for America,and be against bush.

philosophy -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:20:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Oh I don't really even listen to those people. I actuallly think my neighborhood dry cleaner probably affects my day to day life more than some of the idiots inWashington, D.C. do. - Susan ..thing is, your friendly neighbourhood dry cleaner probably wont tap your phone or have your tax records looked over if you don't agree with their actions. Unless they're ex-cia and have the ability to call in a few favours....[:D]

philosophy -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:23:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I feel the love of country, manifests itself in different ways for liberals and for conservatives. I`ll use the analogy of a parent/child relationship. First off,both love the other, deeper than can be expressed,but they are different types of "love". A liberal,like a parent,loves their child.But they correct the child when wrong,guide them when they go astray,and punish them when they mis-behave.I`t`s tough love,and w/ out it,the child is doomed.It is the most important type of love a parent can have. On the other hand,for the conservative,their love country is much like the love a child feels towards their parent.The love is un-questioning and without condition,right or wrong.To a child,their parent can do no wrong. To a conservitive,their country can do no wrong. Hell,you`re mom can be a murderer,and the 5 year old is still going to adore her.It`s like that w/ conservitives/neo-conservitives and most republicans. So yes, you can be a patriot, and for America,and be against bush. ...remove the political lables and i'd agree with this. Two types of expressions of patriotism certainly exist. One questions and one doesn't. In my opinion the phrase, 'my country right or wrong' is intrinsically unpatriotic.

SoulOfIron2007 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:24:46 AM)
I don't approve of many of the actions of the current administration at all, but at the same time, I take a very different view of things. I feel that I have absolutely no right to complain about the current order if I am not willing to fight and die, as my ancestors were, to change it. And the fact of the matter is, I'm not. Because while I think that Bush has screwed things up royally, that man has flat out the hardest job in the world, and I sure as hell wouldn't want the fate of a great nation like ours riding on MY shoulders. You have to remember, he is the figurehead of the biggest beureaucratic machine on EARTH... If something goes wrong, HE has to carry the bag. That's more responsibility than even I would be comfortable with.

SusanofO -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:25:17 AM)
Owner59: Good analogy, IMO philosophy: Well, you're right about that. But I did hear an ex-head of the FBI say today on tv that some in the U.S. have no idea how many terrorist attacks have been averted since 9-11 with the use of phone surveillance. He said if they did, they might change their opinion on that. So far, nobody has tried to tap my phone - I am not that interesting, apparently. I do definitely see your point, and I believe a warrant might be a good idea first - but maybe there is some reason it can't always be gotten first, I dunno. I am not sure about that, really. I think if it's possible to get one without blowing cover, then I say get one. If not...it is a judgment call, IMO, that is definitely related to the depth and nature of the apparent threat. If thousands, IMO of deaths (or even a few, lie, say 20) could be saved without getting one, and getting one would somehow blow the cover of an intelligence operation, I haven't got a problem with not having a warrant, in practice. Theoretically, I do understand the argument, but in reality if it's not always practical (for some reason, although I am not to clear on why this might be) then I'd rather a threat be averted without a warrant, if that is going to save lives and it's absolutely necessary to not get one. This man on tv who ran the FBI for years said people don't realize how close the U.S. has really come to another attack on the level of 9-11 since it happened. That's because it hasn't been publicized - because they don't want some terrorist cells to know how closely they are being watched. It was kind of spooky, listening to him talk on tv today. - Susan

philosophy -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:26:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoulOfIron2007 I feel that I have absolutely no right to complain about the current order if I am not willing to fight and die, as my ancestors were, to change it. Nowadays we don't use guns to change governments but votes. Seems to me that if you vote you have every right to criticise if thats what you feel. Arguably it's a democratic duty.

SoulOfIron2007 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:28:19 AM)
I can see your point, philosophy... But then again, whether we like it or not, votes only change the government if the government is willing to be changed... Because the government DOES enforce it's authority with iron.

Real0ne -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:34:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO philosophy: Well, you're right about that. But I did hear an ex-head of the FBI say today on tv that some in the U.S. have no idea how many terrorist attacks have been averted since 9-11 with the use of phone surveillance. He said if they did, they mightchange their opinion on that. I already posted the link in another thread based on the HLS's own report showing that .0015% of all "arrests" made by HLS are terror related and the rest is all against us citizens. So we sort of do have an idea frankly. Oh and i think the numbn is 12, if i remember right and no convictions of course.

SoulOfIron2007 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:34:43 AM)
Some of the things that have been happening in this country lately are pretty damned scary... People have been charged with treason for daring to criticize the current order... Something that was once held to be our most sacred right as Americans, to speak out when we felt things needed to change. I am very hesitant to believe that ANY nation can survive for long in a state where it's people cannot speak openly and honestly. On the one hand, I can understand all of the fears that people have surrounding order and stability... But on the other, NOTHING is worth giving up your freedom for, because it's the one thing you can't just take back when you want it.

camille65 -> RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. citizen? (9/11/2007 9:36:27 AM)
My country is not the President. The President is not my country. I love & support my country. I do not love nor support this President.

Satyr6406 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:36:51 AM)
I love my country and would spill my blood for IT, today but, I fear my government and I would not do their "dirty work". Peace and comfort, Michael

SusanofO -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:38:42 AM)
RealOne: Really? I am sure the others arrested are not people like drug dealers, and are all Day Care nannies, right? Lots of arrests don't necessarily lead to convictions - can you elaborate on the kinds of activities these folks who were arrested were engaging in, (or tell me where it is, so I can read it?) Like I said, I am nt sure about this not getting a warrant business. But in practice (not theory) if there is a circumstance where someone has to make a decision to avert a terrorist attack without getting one (because getting one somehow blows the operation's cover, although I am not sure why this would be, but if that was the case, for some reason) then I say avert the attack. It appears to not be a clean or easy choice, but IMO it seems like the "lesser of two evils." But that topic is possibly a whole other thread. - Susan

SmokingGun82 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:40:11 AM)
I've got a lot of thoughts on this, but I believe I summed my feelings up pretty succinctly last night in a different conversation: I love my country. I love my dog, too. That doesn't mean I always approve of what either does. But because I love him, and it, I'm willing to deal with a little shit.

SoulOfIron2007 -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:41:51 AM)
LOL Smoking... Cutesy, but a good point. I don't agree with everything that is happening right now, but I still love my country and wouldn't want to be anywhere else in the world.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't love Bush? (9/11/2007 9:49:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Being able to criticize it, is actually one reason I think it's a great place to live -we have the freedom to do things like that. No, you used to have the freedom to do things like that. Now almost everything is where and when they might let you do it. A little less than a month from now the Department of Homeland Security will open a new office called the National Applications Office charged with civil/domestic intelligence gathering. They always did this shit - legal or not. Now they shall pursue such a program with impunity. We are now a nation controlled by fear. A country of lickspittles. ----- Barry Says http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1669325314815164245 "The Power of Nightmares" http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmaresDVD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares Part I http://tinyurl.com/2trvgl Part II http://tinyurl.com/2o39pv Part III http://tinyurl.com/39my8j "The Shock Doctrine" http://www.collarchat.com/m_1268010/tm.htm (with links to media) How it happened: "The Century of the Self" http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12642.htm http://www.archive.org/details/AdaCurtisCenturyoftheSelf_0 Part 2: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart2of4 Part 3: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart3of4 Part 4: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart4of4_0

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