Ignoring as a punishment

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toservez -> Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 12:41:29 PM)
I often read that being ignored is both a very common and effective form of punishment. Now I can understand if a dominant goes, I am upset/disappointed/insert feeling and I am going to ignore you for punishment for this specific amount of time and then does it. But I must admit to finding a dominant that does this in a total reactive nature which would take anyone with any IQ points to point out this is selfish, lazy, immature and passive aggressive behavior masked in power exchange relationship mystique to be quite troubling and actually has a negative impact in my personal experience with it. For me personally I have had very serious conversations with my Master stressing how I feel about this form of punishment as it applies to me only. I am not suggesting at all that this punishment is wrong, unhealthy or unproductive in a gross generalization. My curiosity is to both sides where this action is used, is there in fact a line that can get crossed from effective to indulging in passive aggressive behavior by how, when, why and length it is used as a punishment and do you think it helps, hurts or makes no difference in communication when in fact this punishment effectively puts up a stone wall on communication even if it is just temporary.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 12:55:12 PM)
I find it very ineffective IN THE LONG TERM. Amazing how much we talk about communication and yet the most common thing people do when something goes wrong is to shut down. Now, withdrawing to allow emotions to settle and minds to clear is excellent. Giving someone quiet time to reflect and understand both before and after "punishment" is also a great help. But simply "I am going away" or "You are not allowed to be with me" I have found is actually a really horrible way to effect both behavioral change and good problem solving skills in the relationship. What it says is "When something goes wrong, you will be left alone to handle it." This generally inspires fear and insecurity and some abandonment. Add that to the guilt most subs already feel when something goes "wrong" and you end up with a big mess. As well, the type of person who uses this punishment also tends to be very bad at dealing with emotions and long term behavioral modification to begin with, so at the end of the "punishment period" you've got a sub who has learned they will be left alone when things go wrong, and that their master will be upset and leave them alone if they express serious problem feelings. Since the punishment itself CAUSED serious problem feelings, you've got yourself a Grade A fuck up at that point. With everyone dancing from one foot to the other trying to "be a good sub" and "be the strong dom" and no one actually working well together. How much better if people let things calm down, talked over where things went wrong, why they went wrong, worked on the SOURCE of the issue (because disobedience almost always is a sign of a deeper problem), and used it as a way to become closer, more intimate and a better team together? I don't think punishment in any form is automatically bad or wrong- I am sure there are lots of subs and doms who feel it is very effective for them (though I'd question how really secure and long term those situations tend to be), but I really do believe in the school of working together and that everyone succeeds and fails together. I want to use every opportunity to bring us closer- someone doing something wrong is a sign that I'm not paying enough attention to something, not that I need to go away and be less involved.

missturbation -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 12:55:21 PM)
But I must admit to finding a dominant that does this in a total reactive nature which would take anyone with any IQ points to point out this is selfish, lazy, immature and passive aggressive behavior masked in power exchange relationship mystique to be quite troubling and actually has a negative impact in my personal experience with it. Well you are entitled to your opinion on this but on the other side of the coin an ex Dom of mine said that it was extremely hard work ignoring me. He found it hard to resist my sobs, my 'im sorry' looks and everything that went with being ignored. I dread two punishments, the cane and being ignored. For me these are two of the most effective forms of punishment and never in a negative way. I learn well from them. do you think it helps, hurts or makes no difference in communication when in fact this punishment effectively puts up a stone wall on communication even if it is just temporary. It doesn't necessarily put up a stone wall for communication. If i really was struggling i could say so and my ex Dom would perhaps allow me to communicate with Him briefly, explain my feelings. Being ignored as punishment doesnt necessarily equate to being ignored in a bad way that damages emotionally.

RRafe -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 12:59:02 PM)
I see this as counterproductive-as it creates a destruction of bonds of intimacy. There are better,less passive agressive ways to adress issues betwen adult humans.

Celeste43 -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:06:42 PM)
I'm in this for the intimacy. Destroying that intimacy would be counter productive imo. However that's a lot different from saying "I'm too upset to talk to you now, I need to calm down and think things out in my own head and I'll call you tomorrow". That's fine by me, because I'd rather he be in command of himself when we do talk it out. Lashing out in order to hurt me because I hurt him? Two wrongs don't make a right.

servantheart -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:08:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I find it very ineffective IN THE LONG TERM. Amazing how much we talk about communication and yet the most common thing people do when something goes wrong is to shut down. Now, withdrawing to allow emotions to settle and minds to clear is excellent. Giving someone quiet time to reflect and understand both before and after "punishment" is also a great help. But simply "I am going away" or "You are not allowed to be with me" I have found is actually a really horrible way to effect both behavioral change and good problem solving skills in the relationship. What it says is "When something goes wrong, you will be left alone to handle it." This generally inspires fear and insecurity and some abandonment. Add that to the guilt most subs already feel when something goes "wrong" and you end up with a big mess. As well, the type of person who uses this punishment also tends to be very bad at dealing with emotions and long term behavioral modification to begin with, so at the end of the "punishment period" you've got a sub who has learned they will be left alone when things go wrong, and that their master will be upset and leave them alone if they express serious problem feelings. Since the punishment itself CAUSED serious problem feelings, you've got yourself a Grade A fuck up at that point. With everyone dancing from one foot to the other trying to "be a good sub" and "be the strong dom" and no one actually working well together. I couldn't have said it any better. This is EXACTLY what happens in a situation in which banishment is often used by the Dom as a form of punishment. I had a Master who utilized this method all the time and it got to a point where I was afraid to say anything to him for fear of offending/angering him and getting sent away for who knows how long. One time, I was banished for five weeks. It certainly doesn't inspire a sub/slave's confidence in his/her Dom/Master. Taryn

FRSguy -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:20:29 PM)
I use it but I allways say what it is I am doing and why and I have a long talk with her after the period of time has passed.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:27:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation He found it hard to resist my sobs, my 'im sorry' looks and everything that went with being ignored. Being ignored as punishment doesnt necessarily equate to being ignored in a bad way that damages emotionally. Being ignored when sobbing is a definite hard limit for me. A man deliberately ignoring my tears is as emotionally damaging as being non-consentually physically abused. My ex (a vanilla) did that to me. It was so devistating that I went into a rage and attacked him. I was unable to forgive him and every time he said he loved me after that, all I could think was if he really loved me, how could he stand to watch me cry like that and not do anything. I never felt loved after that. Everyone is different and I'm sure not everyone is as deeply hurt by something like this as I would be. To each their own.

softness -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:31:33 PM)
I know lots of people who use it a lot but have found that it can also create lots of those negative results that LA was talking about. If something has gone worng then commuication to sort out the issue is essential IMO .. but then i think delibertae attention seeking or bratting is best met with being ignored for a short period ... hey its what i do with bratty UMs at school and if someone is behaviong childishly then i would guess child behaviour managment works with them

ownedgirlie -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:32:01 PM)
Jeez LA that was simply a superb post. I agree with everything, other than your questioning of secure and long term situations that have had a punishment dynamic, only because mine is, but then he doesn't look for any opportunity to punish me, either. But that's neither here nor there. As to being ignored, I agree with everything LA said, but want to add that a long time ago, my Master asked me what I think he should do about a situation I had gotten myself into, which pissed him off. Being harder on myself than he could ever be, I said he should banish me from him for a week. He immediately explained what a horrible idea that was. First, it would damage me since I was already fraught with abandonment and isolation issues. Second, he preferred to draw me closer to him, rather than push me away. Third, he did not want to be without the use of his slut for a week. And Fourth, while he might specifically tell me he is giving me time to think things through and thinks I need some space, he will never cut himself off from me, and will never abandon me (he constantly reminded me of that part). He will always be available for me to ask questions, and share what I am thinking and feeling. How else can he understand the problem, and help me grow into what I needed to become?

thetammyjo -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:41:54 PM)
My punishments fit the problem. Problems have to do with not recognizing and maintaining the authority dynamic. Simply making errors requires practice not punishment I believe but perhaps that is the teacher in me. In general things are repeated until they are learned or until I believe the sub/slave really wants to do better. Ignoring someone would be a punishment for someone who is demanding my time when they know I have other things to do. Punishment comes post pointing out the problem, a restatement of the necessity of both of us to maintain the dynamic, and then the punishment. Something that requires more than one punishment is very likely to be a "we no longer seem to be in our Ds dynamic; thanks for the good time; don't let the door hit you on on the way out" in my household. This by the way is not a punishment in my book but a statement of reality. Either we both maintain the dynamic or there is no dynamic. Because I have a formal training period before I take someone as a slave I have never had to go to that final step above.

akisha -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:42:09 PM)
Very non effective with me. If i'm ignored for a long period of time, I'll leave. I mean sure, I've done corner time, but I don't believe in teh silent treatment BS that goes on for days or weeks. This is especially true if in a long distance relationship. If the Dominant cut off contact with me for over a week, we'd be done. Simple as that.

toservez -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 1:50:25 PM)
Thank you for all the replies so far. I do want to clarify my own opinion not necessarily the topic, question or how it has been discussed at all. I do not think this type of punishment is always based on passive aggressive behavior and that I do know from talking and reading how many do not have a problem with this type of behavior and by no means do I personally infer if you do this punishment then you are wrong/bad or anything else negative on the surface of it. My personal experience with it was it would just piss me off. My intellectual thoughts always took over from my heart and would just always think “This is really mature” so the punishment really did more harm than good. I think because of this I have always been fascinated in people who do and like/find effective this type of punishment because my thoughts are above or as some others have mentioned playing on the idea or the emotion of abandonment would be a dicey thing.

caught4u -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 2:00:42 PM)
i am my own person, but i tend to feel what Master is feeling and he is the same with me. if i do something that makes him unhappy, then i am unhappy. if he chooses to withdraw from our relationship, then i would be doing the same. we can continue a cycle of misery, or turn it around to make it something positive. punishments just feed the misery. open communication and good problem solving skills are a must to turn a negative experience into a positive learning experience. silence is often met by silence and nothing is solved.

Kimveri -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 2:03:43 PM)
Hello, toservez, I think there's a distinction here that's subtle but important. In managing behavior, as well as modifying it, the focus is on changing the behavior, not the person. In that context, ignoring can be productive when one ignores the displeasing behavior, rather than punishes the person by ignoring them. In practice it can be difficult: SusieSub is cooking DonDom's dinner & she is humming in a manner that he has previously told her is intrusive on their usual pre-dinner conversation. Since she is not consciously doing this, merely habitually, he needs to aid her in breaking this habit. He could use ignoring her while she hums. If he stops in mid-sentence, she will notice that he has gone silent. She may ask why he stopped, which would require that she stop humming to ask, & he can then explain what she was doing to cause his silence. If she does not notice the silence, stop humming & ask him what's wrong, it's a good indication that there are more significant issues to handle. ;-D However, if he simply leaves the room, she will likely notice & perhaps recall that he was mid-sentence & pursue her understanding of the cause. Assuming she notices & asks, he explains & clarifies his methods, then she will likely be far more attuned to his silences & her own habitual behaviors. This means she will be taking an active role to prevent the consequence of losing his attention & participation. She works to break her habit of humming. Essentially, the person is not to be ignored, while the targeted behavior is. This is fairly effective & maintains clearly that the person is never displeasing, only the specific behavior. This aids in supporting the D/s dynamic, the healthy self-image of the s-type & the intimacy of the pairing. Hope this helps, ~Kimveri

Kimveri -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 2:10:14 PM)
Howdy, LuckyAlbatross, Truly eloquent explanation of the damaging potential in ignoring the person, instead of merely the behavior! I wish more of my co-workers understood the consequences of that gaffe as well as you do! I'd have a lighter work load! :-D Take care! ~Kimveri

ownedgirlie -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 2:10:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kimveri Essentially, the person is not to be ignored, while the targeted behavior is. Excellent distinction. Master has ignored some of my behaviors quite effectively. I have never felt he ignored my spirit. Huge difference, and I'm glad you pointed that out.

fifi -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 2:29:47 PM)
Wow, great post. I've read this and felt it to be so true and connected to me. This kind of punishment never works with me, and like akisha said, "If the dominant cut off contact with me for over a week, we'd be done. Simple as that." Its exactly what I've done, not that I wanted too, but it was all too much. There is only so much a person can take! I find you need to talk through problems, punishments, the reasons for them and the reasons against them. Being ignored is fine, if your in a stable place, mentally, and emotionally. If your not, it is just a really horrible mess-as I found out. Ignoring someone as a form of punishment can only work if it is explained as to why, how long for and if there is a promise to talk about the behaviour/punishment afterwards, also it helps if the dominant is around so you can still feel some connection(personally speaking). I can also understand how hard it is for the dominant to carry out this punishment, it must take great strength of mind and character to ignore a person, and all the pityful looks and countless "sorrys". For those who are reading this, and using this as a form of punishment, understand that this does, has and can mess with a persons head, on a very deep level. My thinking, is it use it with care, because you can all end up worse off and no further forward than when you first began! To me in any relationship communication is more than vital, its necessary, its very important and it is what creates the relationship in the first place, be it a bdsm one, or a vanilla one. Without communication there is nothing, and the more this kind of punishment is used the more it ruins the relationship, ultimately ending in one person breaking and ending it all. So think carefully if that is what you want to achieve by ignoring someone, regardless!

RRafe -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 2:36:52 PM)
Yes fifi, I agree. But is it strength,or dodging the issues to ignore?

subsa -> RE: Ignoring as a punishment (9/11/2007 3:08:09 PM)
all i can say is that for a pain slut like me it is more effective in behavior modification than any sort of physical punishment. first of all...it doesn't happen very often. and when it does it is not arbitrary and is never done in anger. if i've been particularly willful and continue to be so after several reminders that is usually when i get 'punished'. there is a lot of communication both before and afterwards. i'm told exactly what i did that deserves punishment. i'm told how much it disappoints Him. and how much he will miss our time together. during my punishment i'm not free to do anything. i usually sit facing a wall and i contemplate my behavior and what my Master has said to me regarding my behavior. i'm usually tasked with thinking about why i'm acting out and to come up with ideas that could have stopped the behavior that led to the punishment. its always for a proscribed length of time. and when its over we talk again and we start with a clean slate. for us it is quite effective. it helps me to direct my thoughts inward and to understand the why of my behavior. there have been many times when its quite insightful for both of us. so its effective because it accomplishes two things...1- that it truely hurts me to be denied his attention. it gives a negative consequence for bad behavior. and 2- that it gives us both information to grow and learn from...to prevent the situation from occuring again.

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