These things I believe (Full Version)

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Casie -> These things I believe (9/11/2007 3:27:56 PM)

~Barrowed this from a friends journal. wantes to what imput if any you all have~

"These things I believe:
That government should butt out.
That freedom is our most precious commodity and
if we are not eternally vigilant, government will take it all away.
That individual freedom demands individual responsibility.
That government is not a necessary good but an unavoidable evil.
That the executive branch has grown too strong,
the judicial branch too arrogant
and the legislative branch too stupid.
That political parties have become close to meaningless.
That government should work to insure the rights of the individual,
not plot to take them away.
That government should provide for the national defense
and work to insure domestic tranquillity.
That foreign trade should be fair rather than free.
That America should be wary of foreign entanglements.
That the tree of liberty needs to be watered from time to time
with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
That guns do more than protect us from criminals;
more importantly, they protect us from the ongoing threat of government.
That states are the bulwark of our freedom.
That states should have the right to secede from the Union.
That once a year we should hang someone in government
as an example to his fellows."

~ by Lyn Nofziger
(1924-2006) American journalist, political consultant, author, Press Sec. for President Reagan How does this quote by Mr. Nofzinger resonate with your views?  Do you find his beliefs similar to yours ...or do you see government in a different light? 



popeye1250 -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 3:56:04 PM)

Sounds good to me and I'll supply the rope.



Level -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 3:57:04 PM)

quote:

That the tree of liberty needs to be watered from time to time
with the blood of patriots and tyrants.


Was originally said by Thomas Jefferson, I believe.
 
A lot of what was posted is good advice, some of it is subject to the situation, some of it wrong-headed.



ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 4:19:20 PM)

Excellent words, thank you for sharing.  Especially about government working for the rights of the individual, rather than taking them away.  Seems to me that the government, and even large parts of our society, are declaring war on the individual.  Well, I hope they are ready for a fight, because not all of us are sheep.

And if we can't do the politician killing thing, is there a way to bring back the use of tar and feathers?  This was such an effective form of embarassment for those who did not fulfill their obligation the people who put them in charge.



goalie62 -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 4:24:51 PM)

ROPE.TREE.POLITICIAN

SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED



leatherette -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 4:30:46 PM)

Dear Casie: [:)]   Consider your interest list - check " Libertarian" .

( i do )
[sm=smile.gif]



ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 5:17:54 PM)

I agree with everything except states being able to succeed from the union and the politicain hanging thing. That's just silly.



Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 5:18:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherette

Dear Casie: [:)]   Consider your interest list - check " Libertarian" .

( i do )
[sm=smile.gif]

I'm a member if the libertarian party.



Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 5:27:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

I agree with everything except states being able to succeed from the union and the politicain hanging thing. That's just silly.


I say we hang them if they are misrepersenting the people otherwise let them be. But I see nothing silly in sates being able to succeed from the union



ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 5:40:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

I agree with everything except states being able to succeed from the union and the politicain hanging thing. That's just silly.


I don't know about that.  Treason is a crime punishable by death, and a politician purposefully going against the people sure sounds like treason to me.  How about we hang them just a little bit?

And seceding from the union is definitely not silly.  The states agreed to adopt the Constitution and become part of the Union with the promise that the Union would be a benefit to the states by providing for things like domestic tranquility, common defense, etc.  Ever since the 17th amendment which established the direct election of US Senators, the states no longer have voice in federal government.  Prior to the 17th, the state governments appointed the Senators to act as their direct representatives to the federal gov't.  Every day the federal goverment takes more and more power away from the states.  Why is this bad?  Because they are farther removed, less accountable.  At the state and local levels our voices and votes mean more.  That is why the Constitution originally limited the powers of the federal government and reserved all others to the states for them to utilize. 

Secession sure sounds like a possible option to me.  Viable?  No.  US military is too big and would shut it down quick.



ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 5:51:17 PM)

Fire them if they are misrepresenting the people. Kill them for crimes against humanity. But hanging them for "misrepresenting"? What does that even mean? Make everyone happy all the time? Someone, somewhere and a large group of his/her buddies are going to feel misrepresented. You take that job.

As far as secession goes, I dont think anything says it can't happen. However let's remember how things went the last time that happened. I just think it would be stupid to allow. Any state that was successful would be an instant threat. You know how we paid and trained the Afgan people to fight Russian for us? How many governments do you think would be supplying that lone state to act against us? Seceed? Okay. Carpet bombs come next.  



ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 5:57:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

I agree with everything except states being able to succeed from the union and the politicain hanging thing. That's just silly.


I don't know about that.  Treason is a crime punishable by death, and a politician purposefully going against the people sure sounds like treason to me.  How about we hang them just a little bit?

And seceding from the union is definitely not silly.  The states agreed to adopt the Constitution and become part of the Union with the promise that the Union would be a benefit to the states by providing for things like domestic tranquility, common defense, etc.  Ever since the 17th amendment which established the direct election of US Senators, the states no longer have voice in federal government.  Prior to the 17th, the state governments appointed the Senators to act as their direct representatives to the federal gov't.  Every day the federal goverment takes more and more power away from the states.  Why is this bad?  Because they are farther removed, less accountable.  At the state and local levels our voices and votes mean more.  That is why the Constitution originally limited the powers of the federal government and reserved all others to the states for them to utilize. 

Secession sure sounds like a possible option to me.  Viable?  No.  US military is too big and would shut it down quick.


Maybe I'm worng but treason and misrespresentation are two different things on a whole different level.



Casie -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:05:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

Fire them if they are misrepresenting the people. Kill them for crimes against humanity. But hanging them for "misrepresenting"? What does that even mean? Make everyone happy all the time? Someone, somewhere and a large group of his/her buddies are going to feel misrepresented. You take that job.

As far as secession goes, I dont think anything says it can't happen. However let's remember how things went the last time that happened. I just think it would be stupid to allow. Any state that was successful would be an instant threat. You know how we paid and trained the Afgan people to fight Russian for us? How many governments do you think would be supplying that lone state to act against us? Seceed? Okay. Carpet bombs come next.  


Misrepersenting the majority in your district is treason to me.  I don't want to wait two or four years to be able to "fire" someone. If someone abuses their power thats treason. They do not have the right to lead us, we give them that privilege.

We the people are in power. And if we disagree we shouild be able to assemble in a state and break ties with America. If a state were to break away from America they would not be interested in fighting with America obviously. It would be suicide. Can you really see a state like that taking money from enemies to fight america? Not gonna happen not practical and a horrible argument.



ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:15:09 PM)

Misrepresentation?  Try:  Lie, cheat, steal, bribe, accept bribes, corruption, graft, pass laws that favor them and their buddies while passing laws that hurt the rest of their people.  Politicians take a solemn vow to work for us, not against us.  You may give them a pass, but I sure as hell don't.

**Edited to add:  don't forget kill (Ted Kennedy anyone?), put US troops into unnecessary danger, involve us in questionable or even illegal wars, etc etc....



ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:21:11 PM)

Treason is the willful cooperation with the enemy despite your opinion of the meaning of the word.

One state might not be willing to fight America but a collection of them might. Oh hell, maybe it's already happened. The whole civil war thing comes to mind. Letting one state seceed sets a bad precident.  




ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:30:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

Misrepresentation?  Try:  Lie, cheat, steal, bribe, accept bribes, corruption, graft, pass laws that favor them and their buddies while passing laws that hurt the rest of their people.  Politicians take a solemn vow to work for us, not against us.  You may give them a pass, but I sure as hell don't.

**Edited to add:  don't forget kill (Ted Kennedy anyone?), put US troops into unnecessary danger, involve us in questionable or even illegal wars, etc etc....


I never gave anyoene a pass. I asked to define misrepresentation. It was such as easy word to just throw out there. Now YOU say lie, cheat, steal, bribe. etc and then suggest that I think that's okay and "give them a pass"? Don't put words or thoughts into my head. Now to answer YOUR point. Politicians who do those things you specified should face the law and death if their crimes warrant it. This debate started when I challenged the suggestion of hanging politicians for "misrepresentation" which has been convoluted to mean quite a few things so far. Your suggestion that I somehow think it's okay for politicians to do what you specified is offensive and frankly, stupid on your part since I never suggested that at all.



ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:31:55 PM)

Fine, technically it might not fit treason.  But, if their actions harm the US and the citizens therein, sounds like there might be an argument for it.  Would dereliction of duty suffice?  In time of war, punishment under the UCMJ is death.  Seems only fitting that the politicians who declare war are susceptible to the same laws and punishments.  Well, if there was any justice there would be.

Let one state secede and yeah, it would be bad precedent for the US government.  And no, they might just do something about it.  I highly doubt carpet bombing would come, though?  SOmething tells me that sort of reaction would probably not win many votes.  "Mommy, daddy, why did the US government just bomb grandma?"

Secession probably would never happen because the states are too attached to the federal money teat and it would take some major brass ones to pull it off - something few politicians have.



ArgoGeorgia -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:37:50 PM)

I never said misrepresent either.  And you are correct, I misread and thought that you were stating they were simply misrepresenting, I apologize. 

So, fine, instead of hanging them, can we just lock them up and throw away the key?  I really think hanging would be far more effective, and we wouldn't fill our jails with damn politicians.  Just one a year, we'll pick a really bad one, ok?



ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:40:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

Fine, technically it might not fit treason.  But, if their actions harm the US and the citizens therein, sounds like there might be an argument for it.  Would dereliction of duty suffice?  In time of war, punishment under the UCMJ is death.  Seems only fitting that the politicians who declare war are susceptible to the same laws and punishments.  Well, if there was any justice there would be.

Let one state secede and yeah, it would be bad precedent for the US government.  And no, they might just do something about it.  I highly doubt carpet bombing would come, though?  SOmething tells me that sort of reaction would probably not win many votes.  "Mommy, daddy, why did the US government just bomb grandma?"

Secession probably would never happen because the states are too attached to the federal money teat and it would take some major brass ones to pull it off - something few politicians have.


Wow. Are you suggesting civilians be under the authority of the Uniform Code of Military Justice?



ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: These things I believe (9/11/2007 6:42:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

I never said misrepresent either.  And you are correct, I misread and thought that you were stating they were simply misrepresenting, I apologize. 

So, fine, instead of hanging them, can we just lock them up and throw away the key?  I really think hanging would be far more effective, and we wouldn't fill our jails with damn politicians.  Just one a year, we'll pick a really bad one, ok?


lol. I think we have a deal! I pick one one year. You pick one the next. lol



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