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Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 3:30:26 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		I may be a liberal, and proud of it, but I found the Moveon.org NYTimes ad mocking Gen. Petraeus to be appalling.

http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

This ad hominem argument shows that neither the left nor the right can claim the high ground in debate, both sides are rolling around in barnyard fecal material and I find it despicable.  While I may disagree with Gen. Petraeus assessment of Iraq, he should certainly be afforded the respect that he deserves as a man who has served in his country's military, and served well, for many years.  Nor is he a political figure-which these days may have come to expect this type of bile in the press as part of the job.  This smacks of the treatment that our troops received when they came back from Viet Nam which has lead to much anguish amongst veterans.  Clearly, we haven't learned our lessons of history- since we're repeating the same mistakes yet again.

Sam
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:04:46 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

I may be a liberal, and proud of it, but I found the Moveon.org NYTimes ad mocking Gen. Petraeus to be appalling.

http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

This ad hominem argument shows that neither the left nor the right can claim the high ground in debate, both sides are rolling around in barnyard fecal material and I find it despicable.  While I may disagree with Gen. Petraeus assessment of Iraq, he should certainly be afforded the respect that he deserves as a man who has served in his country's military, and served well, for many years.  Nor is he a political figure-which these days may have come to expect this type of bile in the press as part of the job.  This smacks of the treatment that our troops received when they came back from Viet Nam which has lead to much anguish amongst veterans.  Clearly, we haven't learned our lessons of history- since we're repeating the same mistakes yet again.

Sam


Sam, what do you expect from "moveon.org"?
It's not a "liberal" group it's bankrolled by that global socialist/ communist George Soros.
People who believe what moveon has to say aren't liberals or conservatives.
I'd say they're anarchists or communists more than anything.
Liberals should refuse to take any responsibility for anything moveon says or does.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:08:43 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

I may be a liberal, and proud of it, but I found the Moveon.org NYTimes ad mocking Gen. Petraeus to be appalling.

http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

This ad hominem argument shows that neither the left nor the right can claim the high ground in debate, both sides are rolling around in barnyard fecal material and I find it despicable. While I may disagree with Gen. Petraeus assessment of Iraq, he should certainly be afforded the respect that he deserves as a man who has served in his country's military, and served well, for many years.


I would say that he hasn't served this nation well AT ALL, and therefore hasn't earned any respect.

If he's so damn wonderful HOW COME HE DIDN'T TESTIFY UNDER OATH???

The Iraqis have met, what THREE out of 18 criteria.

That's a 31 out of 100. On what planet is a fucking THIRTY-ONE a passing grade.

Iraq. Failure. Bush's Policy has failed. Petraeus' Strategy has failed.

Game Over, Man.





< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/11/2007 4:10:02 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:27:24 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
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Status: offline 		Its called low-class. And that's all moveon.org is.... A bunch of low-class socialists who always hit below the belt.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:31:52 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Again, what respect is a blatant propagandist due? If he wanted respect, he should have perhaps told the truth.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:36:08 PM   
Sinergy


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I find it curious that the latest sniping on the part of the Iraq War Cheerleaders is to try to make the
problems in Iraq somehow the fault of moveon.org.

I dont particularly care about moveon.org, but they have as much right to spew mindless twaddle as, say,
the President, Faux News or Rush "Addict" Limbaugh.  Do you IWC people do anything except try to deflect attention from your own idiocy and/or spin your egregious errors to make the administrations actions completely logical?

Sheesh.  Dont like moveon.org, dont read it, dont patronize the web site, and dont send them any money.

But the issue here is that this man who supposedly served the country honorably has done nothing since he
has been in Iraq to fix the situation, has flip-flopped on his position about what to do to solve the problem,
and has refused to testify under oath to Congress about what is actually happening there.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:38:14 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Again, what respect is a blatant propagandist due? If he wanted respect, he should have perhaps told the truth.




He did tell the truth. He said Iraq isnt improving as fast as he expected and that he needs more time.

How is that a lie? The man is a general given a task to complete. He is not ready to call retreat. And he isn't ready to declare victory. He's still working.

Its the democrats that are spinning it into propaganda in order to appease their anti-war base while the GOP spins it into success. I dont think Petraeus indicated success or failure. The problem is that his testimony wasnt good enough for politicians who want a clear answer right now, immediately, if not sooner. They dont want to wait.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:40:57 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Fargle

Until proven otherwise- I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  My biggest grumble with the current administration is that there is no meaningful dialogue on boths sides of an issue and I don't want to play that game. In short- assume that Petraeus is telling the truth as he sees it.  It's OK to chop holes in his arguments- but not OK to attack who he is at this point.  We've had incompetents who wear the uniform, but this guy seems to have the confidence of the troops, and that's unusual in a lying SOB.

Sam

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:46:55 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The problem is that his testimony wasnt good enough for politicians who want a clear answer right now, immediately, if not sooner. They dont want to wait.



How long should we all wait?

This situation has not improved in 4+ years.  That gives our country 10 more years and 49,000 troops
killed before we hit the Vietnam event horizon.  Of course, since nobody keeps track of all the
contractors getting killed, we dont really know how many Americans are getting killed over there.

Psychotic behavior:  Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:49:28 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Fargle

Until proven otherwise- I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  My biggest grumble with the current administration is that there is no meaningful dialogue on boths sides of an issue and I don't want to play that game. In short- assume that Petraeus is telling the truth as he sees it.  It's OK to chop holes in his arguments- but not OK to attack who he is at this point.  We've had incompetents who wear the uniform, but this guy seems to have the confidence of the troops, and that's unusual in a lying SOB.

Sam


Sam, "dialogue?" In this administration?
Bush called upstanding citizens and honorably discharged veterans "vigilantes" for trying to help secure that Mexican border, a job "he" should have been doing!
He should be charged with dereliction of duty.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 4:56:23 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Again, what respect is a blatant propagandist due? If he wanted respect, he should have perhaps told the truth.



Ya do what ya gotta do to maintain your status in the administration and that's keeping the bush-baby happy. 

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:13:02 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Again, what respect is a blatant propagandist due? If he wanted respect, he should have perhaps told the truth.




He did tell the truth. He said Iraq isnt improving as fast as he expected and that he needs more time.

How is that a lie? The man is a general given a task to complete. He is not ready to call retreat. And he isn't ready to declare victory. He's still working.


What's PL 110-28 say, ( section 1314, IIRC ) about the President's responsibilities regarding compliance with the benchmarks established BY US LAW?

They met THREE out of EIGHTEEN. That's a failure. Accept it. And just admit that Bush's Policy is a failure.

Look at it this way. The kids who die TOMORROW die because you didn't bring them home TODAY.

Are we up to 3 dead GI's a day? How many more days do you want 3 GIs to die, each and every day.

It is YOUR CHOICE how many more dead GI's we have pursuing a completely discredited Policy.

How many more dead will it take before you admit that THREE out of EIGHTEEN is a failure?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:17:20 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Fargle

Until proven otherwise- I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.



You didn't read the GAO report?

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d071230t.pdf

The benchmarks were derived from commitments first articulated by the Iraqi government in June 2006. The Iraqi government met 3, partially met 4, and did not meet 11 of its 18 benchmarks. Overall, key legislation has not been passed, violence remains high, and it is unclear whether the Iraqi government will spend $10 billion in reconstruction funds.

Game Over. Bush and Petraeus Lose.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:20:10 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Game Over. Bush and Petraeus Lose.



*Waits for the inevitable "We need more time" whine from the Iraq War Cheerleaders*

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:22:43 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Which is why I put in in these terms:

EVERY DAY **YOU** DO NOT BRING THE TROOPS HOME FROM IRAQ...

***YOU*** ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEAD ON THAT DAY.

HOW MANY MORE DEAD TROOPS DO ***YOU*** WANT?

BECAUSE IT IS ***YOUR*** CHOICE HOW MANY MORE DIE.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:22:53 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
On a related note, the United States relies to a large extent on mercenary armies from companies like Blackwater.

I do not recall whether this specifically violates the Geneva Convention, but these are never counted in terms
of people killed, wounded, supplied, or anything else, when accounting for the war makes the papers.

From what I recall, mercenary armies seldom work out how the employers hope.  Just ask the ancient Romans.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:26:48 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Oh hell Fargle, I don't disagree with you.  I think Iraq is a sinkhole and always will be since the people that live there don't have enough guts to take responsibility for their own country.  And I agree that we should be pulling out- the sooner the better.  But I do think that if we're going to get this country moving in the right direction, we have to be able to talk to each other and disagree politely rather than running around like a bunch of kids in a schoolyard taunting each other.  I'm tired of the finger pointing and the claims that well, he started it first.  There's a difference between disagreeing with somebody and calling them a liar because you disagree with them.  I'm not willing to call Petraeus a liar because I disagree with the guy- and I think the schoolyard mockery isn't helping.

I'm not sure I want to lump this guy with Colin Powell yet, who clearly did become an apologist for Bush, much to his own and the country's detriment.

Sam

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:34:06 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

I may be a liberal, and proud of it, but I found the Moveon.org NYTimes ad mocking Gen. Petraeus to be appalling.



 Be-tray-us =  A creature of the regime.....a puppet with many strings....a future fiscal officer of a defense contractor.....or,  possibly, a ''prestigious fellow'' of a pro-neocon think tank bent on conquest and control





- R









_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 5:36:32 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Oh hell Fargle, I don't disagree with you. I think Iraq is a sinkhole and always will be since the people that live there don't have enough guts to take responsibility for their own country. And I agree that we should be pulling out- the sooner the better. But I do think that if we're going to get this country moving in the right direction, we have to be able to talk to each other and disagree politely rather than running around like a bunch of kids in a schoolyard taunting each other. I'm tired of the finger pointing and the claims that well, he started it first. There's a difference between disagreeing with somebody and calling them a liar because you disagree with them. I'm not willing to call Petraeus a liar because I disagree with the guy- and I think the schoolyard mockery isn't helping.

I'm not sure I want to lump this guy with Colin Powell yet, who clearly did become an apologist for Bush, much to his own and the country's detriment.

Sam



Boy, you have a talent for understatement. Powell was part of a criminal conspiracy to defraud congress in to authorizing the attack on Iraq.

Petraeus is a liar, because he LIED IN CONGRESS. Good thing he didn't have to worry about any pesky oaths to tell the truth, or perjury for his lies.

There is no way BOTH the GAO and Petraeus are correct. One of them is lying. The GAO report was prepared using Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, and it committed to paper.

I can understand wanting reconcilliation, but to promote and support criminals and liars is something I could never do myself...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/11/2007 6:00:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

I may be a liberal, and proud of it, but I found the Moveon.org NYTimes ad mocking Gen. Petraeus to be appalling.



 Be-tray-us =  A creature of the regime.....a puppet with many strings....a future fiscal officer of a defense contractor.....or,  possibly, a ''prestigious fellow'' of a pro-neocon think tank bent on conquest and control


R,

I'm very surprised.  And disappointed.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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