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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/14/2007 5:40:20 AM

samboct

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Sorry Fargle

Don't think that Jon Stewart's produced a smoking gun. If you ask two students to write a paper on Shakespeare's Hamlet, you'd expect them to use words like "tragedy, bloodbath, irony, soliloquy, suicide" etc. because it's the same topic. So when Petraeus uses words like "catastrophe, force, Anbar province" etc., I don't think it really proves he's a Bushie Stoogie. Maybe you could make a case for plagiarism, but it doesn't seem likely.

I know that there was a whisper campaign (well, more of a shouting from the rooftops) that he's the right guy for the job- didn't he write the book on this type of operation? So is it so surprising that the administration is pinning their hopes on this guy? Seems to me that for a change, they may have actually picked a decent guy. I know, it's a shocking concept given their track record to date, but it is just barely possible.

I think the posters like Simply Michael and Caitlyn (and I guess Firm too, which is a little scary

) are also agreeing with me that by slashing at this guy, we just continue the rift between both sides of the aisle. I want the troops out of Iraq as quickly as possible- I think this war was a terrible mistake and I haven't changed my position from prior to the calls for invasion. But if we want to get our troops out of there, it makes sense to agree that Petraeus is the best guy for the job- then set some metrics and make him agree that they're valid metrics- and that if they're not being met- we leave. Calling the guy a Bushie Stoogie right now is just gonna make everyone dig in their heels. Remember, our imbecile President can't ever think of a single example of when he's been wrong, although he knows he's made mistakes. (I remember this quote from the second set of debates.) He's like the Fonz- he can't say he's been "wron....." Yes, he's a jerk, and yes he's costing people's lives. But pragmatically, I want our guys out of Iraq, and I think the best way to do it is by agreeing that Petraeus is the right guy for the job- and making him stick to a timetable.

Alternatively, I think impeaching Bush is a wonderful idea- but that seems to be less likely than being able to hold Petraeus to a timetable.

In short- while we may disagree with the administration and its supporters, we need to find a way to work together. If we just continue to bicker, our troops and lots of Iraqis are going to be dead. OK, I suspect the reality is that when we pull out, Iraq turns into a bloodbath. I'm reminded of Kissinger's comment on the Iran/Iraq war when asked which side would the US prefer to be victorious? His reply- "Better zey bos should lose." I think he got his wish.

Sam

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/14/2007 6:33:30 AM

SimplyMichael

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Sam,

The tactics needed for successful counter insurgency haven't changed and Petraeus didn't write them.

The solution to insurgencies and Iraq are always political, Bush wants to keep the oil (I realize this is hard for some to grasp, he didn't steal it for America but for big oil, it IS one of the few benchmarks Bush allowed to even be spoken of) and yet there is no political solution that will allow that. Thus without that political solution to power sharing, there is no solution, no victory in Iraq. Petraeus knows that and while he spoke of it, he wasn't adamant.

Counter insurgencies require lots of men, more than for conventional combat. We aint' got em so again, even the military portion of this is doomed to failure. Basically, as a guerrilla you move to where the government isn't and if the government isn't everywhere you are winning or at least not losing.

You assassinate leaders of the opposition as just happened to "our" Sunni leader. As long as you can do that, as a guerrilla you are winning and we are losing. Again it goes to the whole "you need a buttload of troops" deal.

Lastly, he played into that most political of Republican games, mention Al Queda and Iraq as many times as possible. Al Queda wasn't in Iraq before we created the opening for them. This is political theater pure and simple.

I think Petraeus has given up all credibility, I think the move on ad was spot on, but I don't think it helped because middle America still thinks fox news is "fair and balanced". Yeah, that is why it was the only network Petraeus had the balls to show up knowing they would kiss ass and play ball.

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/14/2007 8:32:47 AM

samboct

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Hi Michael

I found your post informative and helpful- thanks. I'm not surprised though. It's struck me that a far better way of dealing with Iraq would have been a blockade- cut off their oil revenues, and the country is toast in short order. Unfortunately, if you want their oil for your butt buddies in Texas, that doesn't work so well, so we've got General Custer saying he's got all those Indians surrounded. (Didn't he have like 200 guys against several thousand?) I'm also doing a little reading on how hard the French had to work to deal with Algeria's guerilla war, and your comment that if you can't provide gov't where the guerillas are, they've won. Or more to the point, the guerillas are doing fine if they don't lose, but you have to win.

So the upshot of it is, even though Bush's buddies are all falling by the wayside, he's not changing his spots. Doesn't surprise me, nor does it surprise me that the Republicans I've met have their tongue hanging out for Petraeus- you've just explained why.

Doesn't change my comment about the MoveOn ad though either-if he's a puppet- show it, but don't mock the guy like a kid in the schoolyard.

Sam

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/15/2007 12:03:34 AM

Owner59

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiuRhy4CqzU&mode=related&search=

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/21/2007 8:46:59 AM

samboct

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Well, in more bizarre political theater-

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/senate-denounces-moveon-ad/20070921091509990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

While the ad should be denounced, what's disheartening is the similar bill by Barbara Boxer didn't make it- which wasn't so specific about the moveon ad, but tried to be more general. That's the bill that should have passed. Our gov't ain't workin' folks.

Also- while I have no sources other than the above article- moveon.org claiming 3.2 million members is far larger than I would have guessed. Clearly there are a lot of people in the country that agree with the organization- regardless of the tar and feathering of calling them "socialists" or "communists".

Sam

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/21/2007 8:49:13 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

Our gov't ain't workin' folks.

Yeah, I noticed that too.

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/21/2007 8:53:12 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Sorry Fargle

Don't think that Jon Stewart's produced a smoking gun.

I thought it was pretty clear the same speechwriters were doing both jobs.

quote:

If you ask two students to write a paper on Shakespeare's Hamlet, you'd expect them to use words like "tragedy, bloodbath, irony, soliloquy, suicide" etc. because it's the same topic. So when Petraeus uses words like "catastrophe, force, Anbar province" etc., I don't think it really proves he's a Bushie Stoogie. Maybe you could make a case for plagiarism, but it doesn't seem likely.

But that's not what we saw in the video, is it?

quote:

I want the troops out of Iraq as quickly as possible- I think this war was a terrible mistake and I haven't changed my position from prior to the calls for invasion.

OK.

quote:

But if we want to get our troops out of there, it makes sense to agree that Petraeus is the best guy for the job- then set some metrics and make him agree that they're valid metrics- and that if they're not being met- we leave.

Done and Done. What do you think the Surge was all about. We built up security in Baghdad so the "Strong national government" could step up and meet the goals set in US Law.

They met 3 of 18, or 17%. They failed. The surge failed. Petreus Failed. and Bush Failed.

So, if you REALLY want the troops home, shouldn't you NOT "agree that Petreus is the best guy for the job".

If you REALLY want the troops home, the best man for the job is an AIRLINE PILOT TO BRING THEM HOME.

quote:

Calling the guy a Bushie Stoogie right now is just gonna make everyone dig in their heels.

Well, those who believe lying is honorable, or some shit.

I guess it's just EASIER to fling shit at Moveon, than it is to actually defend Bush's failures...

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/21/2007 9:05:13 AM >

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RE: Moveon.org's Ad Mocking Petraeus - 9/28/2007 8:47:36 PM

Sinergy

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I can think of a number of people who need join this organization to fight for the Freedom Of The Iraqi People Everywhere.

http://www.thewarofthewords.net/

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2viHLMYoqVI

All you supporters of our invasion of Iraq, let me know when you log off and enlist to go lay your life on the line for what you believe.

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