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Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 7:15:40 PM

TheHeretic

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        I spotted something Philosophy said over on another thread (a topic I have no intention of posting on today), and it started me thinking a bit. The quote was

    "even if you hate the guy you don't badmouth him at his funeral. "

       I think he was paraphrasing someone else, but he seemed to be in agreement.

      Perhaps I'm reading too narrowly, projecting too much of my own experience onto the statement. Not all the events I remember on this day made the national news.   It got me thinking though. Hunter Thompson once wrote in a eulogy that to the dead, you owe the truth.

     What about when you bury a genuinely rotten person? Does the statement above hold true?

     I'm reminded of a funeral I missed about six years ago. They attendees were essentially her five daughters, a few other relatives and a few members of the church she had attended in her later years (when she wasn't "sick").

     The preacher said a few nice nothings about a woman he barely knew, and then her children hit the microphone. One read a poem of forgiveness, laundry listing the horrors of her early years. It kinda went downhill from there. The word "drunk" appeared often. They were glad she was dead, and said so. My understanding is that the church people looked mighty uncomfortable.

     I'm wondering how others feel about this sort of "last word" ritual. Is it appropriate? Healthy? An individual, personal, sort of grudge would fall squarely within the rule Phil stated, but does decorum demand a respectful send-off to the shits of the Earth???



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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 7:24:21 PM

SusanofO

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I wrote a beautiful Eulogy when my mother died - but she was a great mom, and I loved her a lot. My other relatives drew a lot of comfort from it, at the time (so they said, and I have no reason to doubt them).

If people really feel that way about people who have wronged them (and I know it can be tempting as an idea), BUT - they don't always have to muddy their own side of the street in response. I think counselling sessions are rather more the place to "get things like this out of one's system" (or with a trusted confidante).

I think there exists the option to tell the Preacher there will simply be No Eulogy at the service in severe cases like this (ongoing child abuse w/no reconciliation or attempt at it, etc) - but I tend to be a diplomat, when it comes to well attended (sometimes by complete strangers) traditional social rituals and affairs.

I also believe in an afterlife, and if the deceased is gone anyway - then maybe they are beginning to "reap what they've sown" on "the other side" by this time (and possibly forever) at this point anyway.

If the Preacher balks at this idea of having No Eulogy, I'd seek a different one (and give him the same reason listed below. It is just what you've decided to do, period). After all, who's paying for the funeral?

If anyone attending asks why no Eulogy- I'd answer: "That's just what we decided on as a family". If people become extra nosy - then just look forlorn, act like a fainting spell might be coming on, and like you're going to cry, in response to this kind of question. Given the circumstances, if they have one shred of decency they'll likely back off (and it isn't really any of their business - they just maybe aren't aware of this fact).

If they persist with this question (or anyone else asks) just keep saying the same thing, over and over, like a broken record - or say you were just too broken up over it all, and just want to get the whole thing overwith because: "It's what mom/dad/Uncle Henry wanted".

That would be my solution anyway - or else a very private Cremation ceremony (stated in any newspaper obituary as "family only" or something).

Of course if you have relatives who fervently believe that mom/dad/Uncle Henry walked on water, who insist on helping with the funeral plans, this can all become more complicated (if they are luke-warm on the subject, then the above option re: Stating you "just need to get this over with - because you are so over-wrought and exhausted by it all" might still work out okay - especially if you distract them by asking for their help with another funeral-related duty, like greeting attendees, or choosing the flowers, or the casket.

If it is an otherwise halfway decent service(music, psalms, etc perhaps) a missing Eulogy shouldn't really raise that many questions. Usually (depending on the church) there is a "format" to funerals - and the Eulogy is only a part of it all (sometimes a small part -unless someone in the family, or with the authority to do so, chooses to do otherwise - in any case that is something planned by very close relatives only, IMO).

But if it doesn't work out, and someone insists on having one - then you always have the option to not attend at all, if you don't appreciate the arrangements made, IMO.

Or, if someone else insists you "Say a few words about mom/dad/Uncle Henry" - then opt out, saying : "I am just in no kind of emotional shape to do this -please don't insist" - while you are pretending to sniff into your hankie w/sorrow, if it helps you beg off (which is actually true, IMO - you aren't in any emotional shape to contribute to what they seem to want to hear from you).

That way, at least you've managed to side-step this awkward (and in your case un-necessary) obligation, but not ruined anyone else's ceremony in the process.

Just my two cents.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 8:24:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 2

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 7:29:40 PM

TheHeretic

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Thanks for the reply, Susan.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 3

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 7:30:37 PM

SusanofO

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You're welcome.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 4

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 7:43:44 PM

ChicagoSwitchMal

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If saying something 'bad' help with your healing then it is okay. Dying is about the dying (pay attention to the dying) but death is about those left behind who need to heal (pay attention to those left behind). If getting something off your chest is the next step for you then - yes - say it. But if you are some 'freind'... some "coworker" or even someone who is just a little bit sad but doesn't need to heal (and just happens to know the person was an a**hole) then keep your mouth shut. You might be hurting other living people trying to get passed it.

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 8:00:39 PM

cuddleheart50

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The Eulogy is for the ones left behind. Not the ones that have passed...just my opinion.

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 8:19:56 PM

lighthearted

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if you have unreconciled hostility toward someone, talking about it at the funeral may or may not offer some kind of closure. grief is a funny thing, everyone has their way of dealing with it, and as uncouth as it sounds, badmouthing the dead may be what that person needs to move on.

I personally don't think it's right, as the person can't defend themself, so I don't picture myself doing it.

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 9:00:04 PM

onegoodgirl

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I think the best policy is.. if you've got nothing nice to say.. don't say anything at all.

.. and that's all I've got to say about that :)

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 9:30:27 PM

TheHeretic

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       It wasn't about saying something "bad," CSM, it was about expression of true feelings. There was certainly a "fuck you" aspect to it. One dripped with malice and spite, but she was, after all, her mother's daughter.

      Susan: Sorry for the short reply earlier. Things like counseling and confiding in dear friends made me laugh. This was no dark family secret. There were decades of therapy behind that microphone.

     It certainly wasn't Miss Manners.  What's strangely funny to me is that none of those who feel bad about how it turned out will deny a word of what was said. They seem to feel much guiltier about having broken the "don't speak ill of the dead" rule

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 9/11/2007 9:49:43 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)

Post #: 9

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 9:45:43 PM

SusanofO

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Well, I wont be judgmental (maybe her childhood was worse than anyone could possibly imagine. I think that's very possible). My answer was basically a way to do the "If you can't say anything nice then "(even then you still don't have to force yourself to be a hypocrite)...by just skipping the whole Eulogy idea.

That way, people who did appreciate the deceased aren't forced to have their possibly halfway decent memories of the deseased person sullied, by being a captive audience for someone's rant about someone they might have otherwise appreciated. While they themselves are still not being forcd to totally fake it, by making niceties up about someone that they totally aren't feeling. I bet there are other people there who also noticed she was very much "her mother's daughter" (but maybe she wasn't one of them).

The idea behind this is basically: How much is "getting it off you chest" in a Eulogy going to really "help heal you" when it takes 10 - 120 seconds of your life (let's hope it wasn't a 20-45 minute rant)- especially if you've had years of counselling anyway? But that's just me (and I am not trying to be judgmental. You asked what I'd do, I would most likely do what I wrote in my first post, God willing. It's not like there aren't people I'm mad at, or haven't been.) If you absolutley can't bear to be there at all the dead person infuriates you that much- best to skip attending the service, or have others plan it, and not go, IMO. I know people, who have skipped their parents' funerals for this very reason - and I can understand that.

To each their own, I suppose. I am not sure it accomplishes much to do a public rant. I have a friend whose father died last year - she did not attend his funeral (but she did visit her mother after the service. Her mother did love him, and stayed married to him until he died. Her mother was, IMO pretty co-dependent. My friend insisted I didn't have to send her flowers when her lousy alcoholic, child-rapist father, who kicked her out of the house at sixteen, died (of Cirrhosis of the liver due to almost life-long, un-treated alcoholism, too).

She managed to put her self through college, and law schoool, and had and raised a beautiful, sweet daughter, no thanks to him at all. He told her she was fat, a little "smarty pants" and would never amount to a thing. She does volunteer work with teen-age runaways sometimes, on week-ends. She learned how to do any of this I don't know how - it certainly was not due to his influence, IMO. In fact it's practically a friggin' miracle she's functioning and relatively sane. She has a brother who is, according to her, an exact replica of her dad. Needless to say, they are not "close"

She is now a law professor at a university where I live, and has a thriving private practice. When she got the flowers - she called and told me "You didn't have to do that - because trust me - it is no big loss to this world that he's dead". I believed her (I just sent her the flowers because I felt bad about her childhood in general, I guess). Some people's childhoods are undoubtedly pretty screwed up.

- Susan.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 10:23:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 10

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 10:13:28 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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       Susan, I like you better knowing you can look for hope and light in the darkest places. Absolute concensus among those who knew her: There wasn't any. At some point, we all choose to be the people we are.

      I should note that while all her arrangements were made in advance (and mostly honored) the service, in a weird, Fundy church, was the only thing prepaid.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 11

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 10:16:16 PM

SusanofO

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Well I think you'e right about that, we probably do. Good thing the service was pre-paid, huh?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 10:19:21 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 12

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 11:32:11 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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You've never been to an Irish wake have you?

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/11/2007 11:47:42 PM

girl4you2

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"...Eleanor Rigby died in the church and was buried along with her name
Nobody came
Father McKenzie wiping the dirt from his hands as he walks from the grave
No one was saved

All the lonely people
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely people
Where do they all belong?"

_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/12/2007 12:21:43 AM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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My Dad gave the eulogy for his mother's funeral. I was close with my grandmother in her later years, but she really was a sonofabitch as a mother to her kids.

He started out, "My mother was a mean, cruel woman."

Dead silence.

And then he went on to talk about the great things she accomplished in her life, and her hardships. And everyone applauded him later for being so truthful, yet respectful.

I later asked my aunt, who managed my grandmother's finances and oversaw her care, if she felt any relief along with her grief after her mother died. She said, "ALL I felt was relief. I did not grieve my mother. I couldn't wait for that woman to die."

Sad, but reality. That didn't need to be said as her eulogy, and wasn't. It was said between two close family members long after the funeral.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 15

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/12/2007 12:27:45 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       I spotted something Philosophy said over on another thread (a topic I have no intention of posting on today), and it started me thinking a bit. The quote was

   "even if you hate the guy you don't badmouth him at his funeral. "

      I think he was paraphrasing someone else, but he seemed to be in agreement.

     Perhaps I'm reading too narrowly, projecting too much of my own experience onto the statement. Not all the events I remember on this day made the national news.   It got me thinking though. Hunter Thompson once wrote in a eulogy that to the dead, you owe the truth.

    What about when you bury a genuinely rotten person? Does the statement above hold true?

    I'm reminded of a funeral I missed about six years ago. They attendees were essentially her five daughters, a few other relatives and a few members of the church she had attended in her later years (when she wasn't "sick").

    The preacher said a few nice nothings about a woman he barely knew, and then her children hit the microphone. One read a poem of forgiveness, laundry listing the horrors of her early years. It kinda went downhill from there. The word "drunk" appeared often. They were glad she was dead, and said so. My understanding is that the church people looked mighty uncomfortable.

    I'm wondering how others feel about this sort of "last word" ritual. Is it appropriate? Healthy? An individual, personal, sort of grudge would fall squarely within the rule Phil stated, but does decorum demand a respectful send-off to the shits of the Earth???

If the woman is a drunk, but she's had some serious hard knocks in her life, then I for one would show her some compassion; something along the lines of "life didn't quite work out for her, but I prefer to remember x side of her, x times etc". Some peoples' lives are a spiral of self-destruction, and the root of the problem can be external forces.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/12/2007 12:36:24 AM

calamitysandra

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The "You don't speak bad about the dead" rule is absolute hogwash in my opinion.

So, now that I have everybodys undivided attention, on to the argument

Now, an funeral is not a place were standing up and comming clean about ones feelings is easy. Especially not if the feelings towards the deceased are negative. If your need for closure/truth is strong enough that you are willing to stand up at a funeral and risk a scandal, then chances are, that the deceased had it comming a loooooong way.
Why should you be obliged to adhere to the "nothing bad about the dead" rule, if the person in question broke much more importand rules, broke rules that had an direct influence on you life? For example "you shall not make the life of your children a living hell".

And as for not destroying the memories of other people? Well, if the memories are really good, you will not destroy them. But, most times it is not the good memorie, but the frantical holding on to the norm. If somebody was a bad enough person to cause something like this at his/her funeral, chances are that it was known. You are not destroying loving memories, you are exposing illusions.

What about those lovely persons like Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, Goebbels and lesser known massmurderers? They are dead, but I am pretty sure you do not feel the need to not talk bad about them.

The dead are dead, and if the living can find closure in exposing the thruth and speaking their heart at a funeral, well, go ahead and extract your pound of flesh. At least the deceased is this way doing something to heal the wounds he/she caused.

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Alan Alda

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RE: Values and Funerals - 9/12/2007 12:37:57 AM

Rule

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One of my friends had the guts to criticize his father at his funeral (and possibly his mother also at her funeral) and I thought more of him because he did so. It was his last opportunity to honourably and publicly even accounts and to get closure and it was not disrespectful to the deceased. (They were a good family in any case.)

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Post #: 18

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/12/2007 1:12:08 AM

popeye1250

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Irish Wake.
"May the curse of Mary Malone and her nine blind illigetimate children chase that bastard so far over the hills of damnation that the lord himself couldn't find him with a telescope."

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Post #: 19

RE: Values and Funerals - 9/12/2007 2:26:08 AM

Level

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I wouldn't run someone into the ground, but I wouldn't lie either. Good topic, Rich.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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