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RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 9:25:33 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

I think tact is an important thing. One of the reasons I think "white lies" are ok is that peole seem to have a large problem with tact. It seems to be easier to be brutally honest, and cruel, and then say "well, you wouldn't want me to lie, would you?" then to come up with a polite way to say something.

In light of my belief in the lazyness of people, I think white lies like that are ok.

If one is dying, and one is told one will live...well, I wouldn't call that a white lie. I'd say it isn't a good thing. However, if I have a huge zit I can't do anythign about, I'd much rather be told it isn't very noticable than that it makes me look like rudolph.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to DesertRat)

Post #: 21

RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 10:08:52 AM

darksparkle

Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

Is it ever ok for a Master to lie?

feline what is your answer to this question?

_____________________________

He reaches down & his fingers caress my cheek. Lifting my chin, his intense gaze holds me as he tells me to dance in the way that we choose to live. "Dance for me, my little sparkle, dance to the beat of a different drummer."....

(in reply to feline)

Post #: 22

RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 11:50:08 AM

feline

Posts: 1101
Joined: 2/23/2004
From: CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle

feline what is your answer to this question?

OK I'll address lying in general first. I think that for those not gifted with the ability of tactful speech, it is impossible not to. Nobody wants to be hurtful. (well most don't) Personally, I'd rather you tell me my ass looks huge in those pair of pants, rather then let me go out in public in them. Some people just don't have the gift of eloquent speech. In fact I just recently had a friend tell me I look old in my new profile picture. And although it was a little harsh at first, I took it in the spirit it was given. I am old.

I have issues with lies and liars. I do not surround myself with any one who I know does it. If you don't respect me enough to be honest with me, then go f*ck yourself.

Which brings me to my answer to the original question . . . . . NO.
Sorry people. If I am trying to establish a trusting relationship with "you", I am being upfront and straight forward with "you" and "you" lie?! I'm going to start doubting things. "You", your "word" and your "actions and motives". And I'm not talking that b*llsh*t about surprises etc. Come on people, we're all adults here. (or should be)

Like I said before, I have issues with lies and liars. I also have issues with people who feel the need to keep secrets. But that's a whole other thread.

Thanks everyone for your participation,

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Variety is the soul of pleasure.
~Aphra Behn~

(in reply to darksparkle)

Post #: 23

RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 12:20:10 PM

teapaw

Posts: 97
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

quote:

~~We all lie...~~

excuse me? nuh uh. "I" have not told a lie since i was nigh on 8 year old!

the wolf

So you HAVE lied...so we all lie...:)

_____________________________

"get a taste of reiligion ...lick a witch"

(in reply to lonewolf05)

Post #: 24

RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 12:37:10 PM

darksparkle

Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle

feline what is your answer to this question?

NO.
Sorry people. If I am trying to establish a trusting relationship with "you", I am being upfront and straight forward with "you" and "you" lie?! I'm going to start doubting things. "You", your "word" and your "actions and motives". And I'm not talking that b*llsh*t about surprises etc. Come on people, we're all adults here. (or should be)

I share this same viewpoint with you feline. I have found that the honesty of another to be very important in the success of any relationship I am a part of.

For myself dishonesty breeds lack of both trust and respect while it greatly disrupts my sense of security.

Others may thrive on the drama dishonesty creates. I do not.

_____________________________

He reaches down & his fingers caress my cheek. Lifting my chin, his intense gaze holds me as he tells me to dance in the way that we choose to live. "Dance for me, my little sparkle, dance to the beat of a different drummer."....

(in reply to feline)

Post #: 25

RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 12:50:43 PM

dominmd

Posts: 474
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: teapaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

quote:

~~We all lie...~~

excuse me? nuh uh. "I" have not told a lie since i was nigh on 8 year old!

the wolf

So you HAVE lied...so we all lie...:)

Caught that too huh?

Sorry, I do not believe that an adult has never lied. Let alone since age 8. Could it happen? Maybe. Sorry if I upset people, but I don't believe it.

To answer Feline's question: No it is not ok for a Master, Dom, Domme, sub etc to lie. Honesty is the basis of all relationships especially ones over the net be they vanilla or bdsm.

< Message edited by dominmd -- 7/17/2005 12:52:27 PM >

(in reply to teapaw)

Post #: 26

RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 1:40:56 PM

rwmbk

Posts: 43
Status: offline

Well thats a terrible way to feel about it. If you somehow justify lying because other people do, sooner or later everyones morals are slowly degraded. So whats next then? I suppose selling something on eBay and never shipping it is alright then too?

(in reply to teapaw)

Post #: 27

RE: Issues of trust - 7/17/2005 4:36:31 PM

dominmd

Posts: 474
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

I'm not justifying anything. I am saying that people will, can and do lie. Is it wrong? Hell yes it is. But that does not change the fact that people lie. We can argue this until we are blue in the face. Will it change anyone here or out in the real world? The answer is No, it will not. And I do not appreciate sarcasm, in a topic like this.

(in reply to rwmbk)

Post #: 28

RE: Issues of trust - 7/18/2005 6:26:31 AM

BlouLady

Posts: 170
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline

NO,NO, NO, NO, NO! (except for things like birthdays.)

(in reply to feline)

Post #: 29

RE: Issues of trust - 7/18/2005 7:26:44 AM

sudja

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

Is it ever ok for a Master to lie?

Thanks in advance,

It's not okay for people in a relationship founded on, and requiring the deepests levels of, trust to ever lie.

That said, I'm sure I can construct a situation where it is "okay."

But as a mindfark or the like? That's between the two folks, and their agreement. Personally, I wouldn't want to have any part of it.

sudja

(in reply to feline)

Post #: 30

RE: Issues of trust - 7/18/2005 7:29:28 AM

sudja

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

fate here's a scenero for you;

And let's say your working on building a trusting relationship with this person. They tell you they don't do something. No big deal, no real reason for telling you, but they do. Then a time later you find that they are doing exactly what they volunteered to you that they weren't.

Is a lie not still a lie? (please let's just stick with the lie issue right now )

It's still a lie to you - but sometimes folks may have different definitions.

For example, I know a woman who does not consider it "sex" when she speaks with somebody over the phone and talks them through getting their rocks off.

I do consider that "sex" in so far as fidelity goes, as do many others.

If that woman and her partner had an agreement where she could not "engage in sex with others" and she said she was not - she would be telling the truth under her personal definitions.

sudja

(in reply to feline)

Post #: 31

RE: Issues of trust - 7/18/2005 8:01:59 AM

plantlady64

Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline

Hello There,
I think especially in a BDSM dynamic honesty is very necessary. When you trust someone your bond will be stronger. If someone lies and you're not sure if you can believe them it affects my ability to trust them in any arena.
I'm not sure who wrote it but htere's the expression "The Truth Will Set You Free". I try to live by this motto.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to feline)

Post #: 32

RE: Issues of trust - 7/18/2005 10:02:24 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

feline;

quote:

Then a time later you find that they are doing exactly what they volunteered to you that they weren't.

======
if i come to understand you? it sounds, like they are being two faced. and i will not allow that either.

wolf

(in reply to feline)

Post #: 33

RE: Issues of trust - 7/20/2005 7:30:03 AM

Hissweetshiv

Posts: 200
Joined: 6/24/2005
Status: offline

I have to say that in the scenario you gave (a person denying an activity they were later found to be participating in) that no, a lie is not acceptable. Someone else suggested that the denial was a way to test for reaction... i don't think so. It's just as easy to say "I once met someone who..... (insert activity)" as it is to lie and tell someone who is supposed to be able to trust you that you would never... whatever. As for the "do i look fat in this?" type of lie, i have told everyone who ever had the opportunity to answer that to me - if i ask you that question, i want an HONEST answer. I want to know if i look okay, not have a false sense of security about something i look awful in.
Surprises however.... different story (obviously). My best birthday of my life was when my family and Master conspired to fly Him up for a week. It nearly killed Him to not tell me in the month or so they were planning it, but He managed lol... and it was a wonderful surprise and i wouldn't want to change things like that.
So - is it ever ok to lie? Only for a positive purpose - if you want to be tactful, then do so. It doesn't require lying.

(in reply to lonewolf05)

Post #: 34

RE: Issues of trust - 7/20/2005 8:42:33 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

It's still a lie to you - but sometimes folks may have different definitions...orig:sudja

Intentionally fabricating stories about something someone is "into" or not doesn't sound like the way to build a trusting relationship. like sudja pointed out, some "lies" are merely a difference in perspective. for example, many people attend the same event, each one of their experiences at the event would be related later to another somewhat differently according to their individual perceptions. it does not make any of them a liar about what went on at the event, just a difference in perspective. this slave has learned through her experiences that most people who are hung up on "lies and liars" usually have such a big "lie" in their own lives that they can't or won't even admit to it.

(in reply to sudja)

Post #: 35

RE: Issues of trust - 7/20/2005 8:45:43 AM

sudja

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

It's still a lie to you - but sometimes folks may have different definitions...orig:sudja

Intentionally fabricating stories about something someone is "into" or not doesn't sound like the way to build a trusting relationship. like sudja pointed out, some "lies" are merely a difference in perspective. for example, many people attend the same event, each one of their experiences at the event would be related later to another somewhat differently according to their individual perceptions. it does not make any of them a liar about what went on at the event, just a difference in perspective. this slave has learned through her experiences that most people who are hung up on "lies and liars" usually have such a big "lie" in their own lives that they can't or won't even admit to it.

Not sure exactly what you mean - but the example I gave was from real life - a woman told her submissive she was not having sex with others. She was sincere, and believed she was following their agreement. The submissive knew about the phone chatting and thought she was lying. It took some time for them to straighten things out.

sudja

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 36

RE: Issues of trust - 7/20/2005 10:20:01 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Not sure exactly what you mean - but the example I gave was from real life...orig:sudja

The author Don Miguel Ruiz explains it very well and in detail in his book "The Voice of Knowledge". The following is an excerpt that this slave has experienced in real life, too many times to count:

quote:

If one hundred people perceive the same event, you hear one hundred different stories and everybody claims that his or her story is the true story. Of course, it is only true for that person, and your story is only true for you. But the "voice of knowledge" starts searching for everything in your mind to make yourself right. You even look for allies from the outside to join you in your crusade to be right and make the other person wrong. Why try to justify what you believe? You don't need to make others wrong because you already know that in their story, they are right. In your story, you are right. Then being right or wrong is over; you no longer have to defend what you believe.
When we reach this level of awareness, it is easier not to take what other people say personally. We know that every human around us is a storyteller, and everyone distorts the truth. What we share with one another is just our perception; it is just our point of view. And it is completely normal because the only thing we have is our point of view. This is how we describe whatever we witness.

(in reply to sudja)

Post #: 37

RE: Issues of trust - 7/20/2005 3:31:32 PM

feline

Posts: 1101
Joined: 2/23/2004
From: CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
this slave has learned through her experiences that most people who are hung up on "lies and liars" usually have such a big "lie" in their own lives that they can't or won't even admit to it.

Really?! It has been my experience, that people "hung up" on lies and liars have had their fill of them in their lives. Imagine that!

Any one else care to disagree with me?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by feline -- 7/20/2005 3:35:29 PM >

_____________________________

Variety is the soul of pleasure.
~Aphra Behn~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 38

RE: Issues of trust - 7/20/2005 3:44:56 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

this slave has learned through her experiences that most people who are hung up on "lies and liars" usually have such a big "lie" in their own lives that they can't or won't even admit to it.

How many experiences? I'm hung up on liars. Not necessarily lies. Although when I see one single person contradicting themselves over and over. The lifestyle I am in does not allow for contradictions from day to day. That becomes one of my pet peeves. Liars and exposing them.
I live my life by integrity, I realize many don't even know the meaning of the term.
It doesn't mean my life is a lie, actually it means the exact opposite. So, whatever studies you can quote I'd love to read.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 39

RE: Issues of trust - 7/20/2005 5:57:41 PM

slavedesires

Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plantlady64

Hello There,
I think especially in a BDSM dynamic honesty is very necessary. When you trust someone your bond will be stronger. If someone lies and you're not sure if you can believe them it affects my ability to trust them in any arena.
I'm not sure who wrote it but htere's the expression "The Truth Will Set You Free". I try to live by this motto.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

That quote is from the Bible.

~~shy

< Message edited by slavedesires -- 7/21/2005 8:21:41 PM >

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to plantlady64)

Post #: 40

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