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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 3:27:31 PM

Cyntilating

Posts: 581
Joined: 6/19/2007
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{So.. what do Survivors do for you? }

..they remind me
that there is always hope

...they remind me
to acknowledge, and then live in the pain only long enough to grieve its passing...
and move forward, to my new reality, stronger, wiser..and no longer feeling alone.

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 21

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 3:31:44 PM

Squeakers

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     Me personally, I do not identify as either a survivor or a victim.    Sometimes, I can put myself in either area.   For me, sometimes, it's like an old pain that throbs when the weather gets bad.
   I require neither pity nor admiration.   I do not have the need nor desire to tell everyone one I meet that I had a past.    Most people are not even aware.         Sometimes speaking out about it, is unavoidable, for example, if that old pain flaring up may affect a relationship loving or otherwise, I might explain things ahead of time.    I do speak publically, about my past at times simply to allow others insight.    I get pity and admiration during those times.   I have caused grown men to cry when I have told my story.    Sometimes, that hurts me more than my own past did, but if I can allow just one person, to not go down the emotional hell that I suffered in silence for the majority of my life, those tears and my hell are completely worth it.
     For the most part, I just want to be treated like anyone else.   It does not matter if they know my past or not.    I do not expect special treatment, I am not so very different than anyone else.    Maybe I am a survivor with a limp as someone so elegantly put it on Bita's thread.    Perhaps, I am a vicitm with a positive outlook.    Underneath it all though, I am just a person.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 22

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 3:32:25 PM

Emperor1956

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Of course, one could look past all the flowery talk and insincere bullshit, and realize that for some, the "admiration for the survivor" is really "HEY, she was a victim once (for him) and NOW she can be MY victim!"

I'm just thinking...

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 23

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 4:39:19 PM

iammachine

Posts: 1549
Joined: 1/25/2006
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quote:

I respect survivors, even those with the victim coplexes. AS long as they dont try and turn their ordeal into a daily pity party and bid for attenton at every turn. Once a horrible thing is made into an attention getting device, I no longer respect the survivor. Your goal is to get over something and move on, rebuild yourself and make it go away, not see how many peple can pity you and how you ca use whatever unfortunately happened to you to your best advantage. That I cannot respect.

QFT

The quoted statements really kind of illustrate the difference between a victim and a survivor to me.

What I mean by that, is the victim mentality of holding on to a negative experience, as opposed to learning from it and moving on with life. I have no patience to try to help those that are unwilling to help themselves; which is where I pivot from having empathy and respect for a person that has survived a bad situation, vs feeling sorry for a victim that is unwilling or unable to move on.

That said, our experiences make us who we are. I don't think that anyone ever forgets, or the echoes from an experience ever entirely go away. But the key differences lie in how a person handles those things; whether your are in control of how you process the experience and your subsequent behaviour, or if it your history and experience will subsequently control you.

my .02

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Post #: 24

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 4:44:49 PM

iammachine

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Joined: 1/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Squeakers

    Me personally, I do not identify as either a survivor or a victim.    Sometimes, I can put myself in either area.   For me, sometimes, it's like an old pain that throbs when the weather gets bad.
I require neither pity nor admiration.   I do not have the need nor desire to tell everyone one I meet that I had a past.    Most people are not even aware.         Sometimes speaking out about it, is unavoidable, for example, if that old pain flaring up may affect a relationship loving or otherwise, I might explain things ahead of time.    I do speak publically, about my past at times simply to allow others insight.    I get pity and admiration during those times.   I have caused grown men to cry when I have told my story.    Sometimes, that hurts me more than my own past did, but if I can allow just one person, to not go down the emotional hell that I suffered in silence for the majority of my life, those tears and my hell are completely worth it.
    For the most part, I just want to be treated like anyone else.   It does not matter if they know my past or not.    I do not expect special treatment, I am not so very different than anyone else.    Maybe I am a survivor with a limp as someone so elegantly put it on Bita's thread.    Perhaps, I am a vicitm with a positive outlook.    Underneath it all though, I am just a person.

Well said.

_____________________________

I still hear you scream... in every breath, every single motion

(in reply to Squeakers)

Post #: 25

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 5:03:18 PM

Mercurialdame

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Joined: 9/10/2007
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Depends how they live their survival.
When i consider my small group of friends, the ones that have been around for decades. They have all survived something. They are all enriched as a person for having that personal growth such events can bring about. Yes, i admire them.
Doesnt have to be abuse described in the previous thread, could be some other challenge. The common denominator that inspires my admiration, is how people have survived. What they have learned from it, and how they use that knowlege to their benefit.
That is what i admire.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 26

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 5:43:32 PM

HollyBlue

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Joined: 9/13/2007
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I definitely admire survivors, and consider myself one.

When reading books or watching movies, I always admire and identify most with characters who overcome terrible adversity through courage, ingenuity, and sheer determination.

I think the strength I have gained as a result of overcoming some difficult situations in my past makes me a better masochist.

I am probably able to take more pain than some people could, because I can draw on the same inner strength that has gotten me through so many things that were far worse than a good beating.

My Master is proud of my increasing ability to submit with grace, and I wouldn't have it without the determination I've gained through surviving other life experiences.

Of course, without my "survivor" skills, I would probably never have found the courage to seek out the kind of love I truly wanted, and reach out to claim it when I found it.

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(in reply to Mercurialdame)

Post #: 27

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 10:03:33 PM

slavegirljoy

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From: North Carolina, USA
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Do i admire survivors? Not necessarily. For one thing, not everyone survives by means that i would consider admirable. Some people survive by stealing, by lying, by cheating, by conniving, by manipulating, by hurting or killing. If that's what some people decide is necessary for them to do to survive, is that something to be admired? Not that i would necessarily condemn them, either but, admire them? Not really. It's not really possible to know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes and you never know how you might handle a situation, until you are actually in the situation. But, i do believe that there is usually more than one choice available in most situations and to choose a negative and hurtful choice over a positive and constructive one, in order to survive, is not what i would consider an admirable quality. Also, like Susan said, who gets through this life unscathed? Don't we all have to survive, in our own way, every day? Some of us survive by using positive coping skills and some of us survive by using negative coping skills. Should both be admired for being a survivor? Some things we have control over and some things we don't. Some of us get dealt rotten deals in life. Some of us come out of the womb already in a negative place. We don't get to pick our parents or our families or whether our mother was nurturing and caring to us or was unavailable and uncaring or whether our father was an alcoholic and abusive or was healthy and loving or whether there was anyone in our lives who showed us that we had value. Some people have childhoods that suck. That's a fact of life that can't always be changed but, we can grow and learn that it wasn't our fault and that we deserved better as a child and we deserve better as an adult. We learn our basic survival skills as infants and children. Some survival skills we are born with. We automatically cried, as newborns, in order to survive, to be fed, to be warm, to be dry and to be comforted. We learned how to run and hide, as children, when we felt threatened and scared. We learned how to keep our mouths shut and hold things in, so as not to upset the people we counted on for our survival. We learned how to stay out of the way, when there were angry voices or fighting around us. We learned how to find someone we could talk to, even if it was a stuffed animal or a friend or a teacher. As we grew, we learned new survival skills, some that are positive, like knowing when to leave a situation that feels threatening to our well-being, and some that are negative, like getting drunk to forget the stress and all the bad stuff that we are faced with. Some people learn to rely on the positive survival skills more and stay away from the negative ones. Others turn more and more to the negative ones. Some of us are so filled with negative messages that we end up living a self-fulfilling prophecy. We play the negative tapes over and over in our heads, until all we feel is that we are worthless and we deserve what we got. Some of us end up hurting ourselves far worse than anyone else ever could. Some of us put ourselves in a cage that keeps us from living a full, productive, and satisfying life. Some of us are self-destructive and use chemicals to deaden our pain or to hasten the end of our miserable life. Some of us cut ourselves, burn ourselves, starve ourselves, or otherwise harm ourselves. How do we survive our own self-abuse? How do we rescue ourselves from ourself? This is probably the most depressing thing i have ever written but, how else do we get to a positive resolution of our pain and suffering if we don't face the truth, and the truth can be very ugly to look at. The fact is that most of us are our own worst enemy. We keep our self-image low. We say negative things to ourselves and beat ourselves up, instead of saying positive things and building ourselves up. You may not be able to change everything about your life but, you can improve it. You may not be able to get rid of every negative thought that pops into your head but, you can replace it, immediately, with a positive thought or two. You can remember that you and only you are ultimately responsible for your health, happiness, and well-being. If you turned your life over to another to be in charge of it, you made that choice. And, if you find that you made a mistake, you can correct it. It's allowed. Playing the "blame-shame game" will get you nowhere. It's nothing but a viscous cycle that will keep you from moving in a positive direction. Negative feelings about yourself or anyone else won't help you to get to a positive place in your life. Forgiving, not condoning, but forgiving yourself and anyone else who you feel has hurt you will help you to heal and move out of a place of feeling stuck and feeling angry and feeling hurt and feeling defeated. One thing that i do to help me stay on a positive track is to ask myself, is this an action/thought/decision that will lead to positively running my life
or
is this an action/thought/decision that will lead to positively ruining my life? Just my thoughts on this. slave joyOwned property of Master David

< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 9/13/2007 10:12:54 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 28

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 12:26:16 AM

taintedgypsy

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Joined: 2/10/2007
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Thanks slavegirljoy,
really enjoyed reading that post, blantant and in your face honesty.

iammachine ... yes I think that is what I did not recognise in answering KOM earlier, my personal discomfort that somehow it was being glorified or that it made a survivor seem like grandstanding/attention seeking instead of just putting your story out there to improve your own understanding and to let others know they are not alone/ to feel that you are not alone and even on the off chance that it brings something positive to someone not as far along in the healing process.
As toservez so adequately described "I think there is a bit of squeaky wheel gets the grease in regards to the positive attention someone gets from overcoming adversity toward people who at least avoid adversity in the self created/personality driven type." I would hate to be seen as a squeeky wheel, but it is also healthy and personally empowering in a way, to be able to make the "unspeakable" spoken. For me it helps put it more firmly in the past, the basket of "enough ... move on".
edited to remove huge blank space at end of page ... not sure what I did there lol.

< Message edited by taintedgypsy -- 9/14/2007 12:27:25 AM >

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warm smiles to all

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 29

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 6:45:13 AM

LaTigresse

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joy, that was an awsome post.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 30

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 8:47:04 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
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From: North Carolina, USA
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Thank you, taintedgypsy. i have enjoyed reading your posts, as well. i think it's important to acknowledge our pain and understand where it came from and how we got through it and it can sometimes be helpful to others, who are struggling with their own pain, when we are able to open up and share our personal stories of struggle, as well as victory. In my view, it's enough of a victory just to survive but, it's also good to want to do more than survive. It's good to be able to conquer our fears and feel free to explore our pain on another level.

It's also important to keep things in perspective. Pain is a part of life and it can be something positive. It can teach us important lessons about how to be safe and healthy and also how to empathize with others who are suffering. But, some people focus so much on their pain that they lose touch with the pleasure and enjoyment that is a part of life, too. Some people become "sufferers" rather than survivors. They dwell in their suffering. It's important to realize that even though we have been victimized, at some time or another, we can move past it and we don't have to live the rest of our lives as "damaged goods", without any expectation or hope for a better life or the right to be happy. Knowing pain doesn't have to mean the end to knowing pleasure.

There are different kinds of pain and different kinds of pleasure and sometimes there is a thin line between the two. As a masochist, it can be tricky trying to keep my balance when walking that line. In order to do that, it's important that i feel very sure that the one i allow to be in charge of inflicting pain on me knows how to identify where the line between pain for pleasure's sake ends and pain for pain's sake begins and will respect that line. i have to know that the other person will know when to stop, even when i don't. That's the only way i can comfortably allow myself to voluntarily take part in S&M. i'm not a martyr but, i do feel good that i don't let the pain scare me or take over and consume me. It's very well controlled by the man standing over me and that keeps me safe, even from myself.

i hope this makes some sense. i have a bad cold and am under the influence of cold medicine, which makes my head a little fuzzy.

Edited to add: Thank you, LaTigresse. And, now i'm going to go lay down and rest my fuzzy head.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: taintedgypsy

Thanks slavegirljoy,
really enjoyed reading that post, blantant and in your face honesty.

iammachine ... yes I think that is what I did not recognise in answering KOM earlier, my personal discomfort that somehow it was being glorified or that it made a survivor seem like grandstanding/attention seeking instead of just putting your story out there to improve your own understanding and to let others know they are not alone/ to feel that you are not alone and even on the off chance that it brings something positive to someone not as far along in the healing process.
As toservez so adequately described "I think there is a bit of squeaky wheel gets the grease in regards to the positive attention someone gets from overcoming adversity toward people who at least avoid adversity in the self created/personality driven type." I would hate to be seen as a squeeky wheel, but it is also healthy and personally empowering in a way, to be able to make the "unspeakable" spoken. For me it helps put it more firmly in the past, the basket of "enough ... move on".
edited to remove huge blank space at end of page ... not sure what I did there lol.

< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 9/14/2007 8:51:05 AM >

(in reply to taintedgypsy)

Post #: 31

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 8:53:17 AM

domiguy

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slave joy...Very nice post...Beautifully worded as well as thought out...Well done.

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Post #: 32

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 12:21:19 PM

ownedgirlie

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Joy that was a great post - I loved it.

You are right - most of us have had hardships, or will have hardships of some sort. Where my admiration for others comes is in how they answer those questions you posed at the end of your post. I have a friend who has had some relatively minor hardships. That's all she focuses on. She has a very negative, "woe is me" mindset. I love her, but I have to limit my time with her because such a mindset becomes a drain on me and is not healthy for me to be around. It is not a trait that is admirable to me. What is admirable to me is the opposite of that - those who have been burdened, either through their own actions or as the result of someone else's - and who have decided they do not want that burden in their lives, and figure out a healthy means of rising up out of it.

It's a person's character which gains my admiration. Victor Frankl has my admiration. Elvis Presley does not (yeah, I know...but before you flame me, please note there's a difference between compassion and admiration).

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 33

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 1:28:59 PM

BitaTruble

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

So.. what do Survivors do for you?

To paraphrase one of my favorite authors, Oscar Wilde, what lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies inside us.

Surviving is simply failing to allow something to destroy you, either physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually or, often, a combination of those.

That's just not good enough for me anymore. For me it's too passive and a mentally that allows for stagnation. I need growth.

I'm all about thriving. To me that's the best path I can take for personal growth. Being seen as a victim or even as a survivor would not be a pleasant experience for me. My brother, who had a similar childhood to my own, is just surviving and it's so sad. I can't admire the fact that he failed to die because right now, he's failing to live and it breaks my heart.

I'd rather someone have a goal to thrive rather than just survive. Do so without harming anyone else, and that's someone I'd like to call friend and that's someone I can admire.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 34

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 2:43:12 PM

gypsygrl

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From: new york state
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quote:

Being seen as a victim or even as a survivor would not be a pleasant experience for me.

The concept "survivor" always rubbed me the wrong way. I'm always like, no! I want more than survival! When I was directly confronting and working through the shit that happened to me as a kid and in the course of my marriage, and its long term consequences, I felt cheated by the discourse of survival in the theraputic literature. (I did a lot of this work in the course of therapy, but I also read alot) It pissed me off and I was like, fuck that.

I tend to learn from people who've been through shit especially the ones who are living their own lives. I also take strength. There's lots of people who have have been tested more than me, so I figure if they can do it, so can I.

There used to be a woman who lived accross the hall from me. Knowing what I know about her life, I haven't a clue how she got up every morning. But, she had a sign reading "faith" above her door, and all through what was about the hardest time in my life, whenever I'd leave my apartment I'd see that one word and it always made me feel a little stronger.

So, to answer the question posed in the op, that woman gave me faith.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 35

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 3:51:26 PM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I'd rather someone have a goal to thrive rather than just survive. Do so without harming anyone else, and that's someone I'd like to call friend and that's someone I can admire.

Celeste

This reminds me of something I recently told my Master, when he was asking me about some differences between my relationship with him and what I had with my ex husband. Both men have been hard on me, but it came from different places, and one is very rewarding while the other was very destructive.

I told him, "With you I thrive; With him I survived."

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 36

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 4:42:28 PM

welshwmn3

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

The road to self-peace ( not recovery) for survivors is not easy and reinforces the 'strength' they used to exist prior.

Recovery is a misnomer because what does one recover to? A 'normal person'? They recover to the person they would have been?

I would agree with you that the road is also to self-peace. But I disagree that recovery is a misnomer.

You ask what a survivor recovers to. They recover strength, peace, happiness, contentment, worth. All things that every human being is born with to some degree or another, and which people who have been abused lose, to varying degrees.

No, a survivor will probably never be "normal". It's very difficult to go from massive dysfunction to 'normalacy'. Their experiences have changed them forever. But if they gain some sense of the worth they had in the very begining, some sense of self-identity that doesn't believe they deserved to be abused in whatever manner they were, then yes, they are recovering.

(in reply to Driver1961)

Post #: 37

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 5:06:14 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Surviving is simply failing to allow something to destroy you, either physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually or, often, a combination of those.

That's just not good enough for me anymore. For me it's too passive and a mentally that allows for stagnation. I need growth.

I'm all about thriving. To me that's the best path I can take for personal growth. Being seen as a victim or even as a survivor would not be a pleasant experience for me. My brother, who had a similar childhood to my own, is just surviving and it's so sad. I can't admire the fact that he failed to die because right now, he's failing to live and it breaks my heart.

I'd rather someone have a goal to thrive rather than just survive. Do so without harming anyone else, and that's someone I'd like to call friend and that's someone I can admire.

Celeste

A victim seeks to survive... a survior seeks to thrive.

I see victims that have escaped the struggle.. but yet they still live in the past and carry the cross of their victimization. This person to me is still a victim.. a victim to themselves.

But.. when a person is able put thier victimization behind them and thrive... this is when they have actually survived. I don't see a survivor as simply as a person that stops something from destorying them. I see them as someone that does indeed what you seek to do....

and that is THRIVE!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 38

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 6:17:25 PM

welshwmn3

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Some people survive by stealing, by lying, by cheating, by conniving, by manipulating, by hurting or killing. If that's what some people decide is necessary for them to do to survive, is that something to be admired?

If stealing meant that they had enough food to stay alive another day? If lying meant they had a chance to not be beat black and blue, on top of bruises that were only half healed from the last beating? If hurting or killing (the perpetrator) got them out of the situation? Yes, all that would be something to admire, because it helped them to live another day, to survive (physically) long enough to get them to a time when they could get out of that abusive and/or life threatening situation.

quote:

But, i do believe that there is usually more than one choice available in most situations and to choose a negative and hurtful choice over a positive and constructive one, in order to survive, is not what i would consider an admirable quality.

Sometimes, there is no choice. A child who is being starved by the very parents who are supposed to care for them, who went to teacher after principal after babysitter after priest, and gets no help from anybody, has no other choice. For that child, life is only pain, suffering, endless agony. Unless they steal food and money to get some candy or bread or fruit to make it another day. Unless they lie, knowing that if the lie is found out, they will be beat at least twice. But also knowing that the rate of their parents at sussing out the lie is only 50%, and if they 'fess to the 'crime' they will get beat at least once anyways.

Which is worse? Lying, stealing, selling themselves, or dying? And if the option is dying, well, the human body is a lot harder to kill than people think. No matter how hard somebody might want to die.

In my experience, people who believe there are more than one choice to any given obstical (and not all choices being worse, worser and worst), have never been put in a position where the only choices were to submit to torture and death, or lie, cheat, steal, and worse.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 39

RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/14/2007 10:00:10 PM

MissAnthropic

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Joined: 7/31/2007
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I am a survivor. But I'm more than ready to live again, and more importantly to love again. It would be far easier and imo more comfortable to push all people away, to never risk reaching out and letting someone else touch me, the person.

I think there is a difference if you were betrayed by a parent or loved one as a child, or rather what you were a survivor of. You dont have to grow up in an abusive home to have abusive marriages or relationships. If you know that there does exist honourable men and women and people, then it's perhaps easier to have the perspective that you can survive almost anything because there is good and bad in anyone, but also know that trust isnt always abused, then you have I guess hope.

Most of us feel pain at some point in our lives, some get small amounts on regular intervals, some of us get huge amounts all at once beyond our tolerances by a freak of nature. It doesn't matter if that pain is emotional or physical. It's what we choose to do with what we are given.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 40

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