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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 12:02:55 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

i understand what you're talking about.  As a little girl of 7, 8, 9, and up to about 12 years old, the only thing that frightened me and the scariest place in the world to me was being inside my own house with my own family.  As a little girl, i felt safer and better when i was outside, alone, in the dark, at the school, in the backyard, or walking through the neighborhood, than i did being in my house with my family.  i would stay as far away from that place and those people for as long as i could.  And, when i did have to be there, i would hide as much as i could, under a bed or in a closet or in the garage.  All i could think about day in and day out was that, as long as i could make it until i was old enough to leave, for good, i would be okay.  i learned to hide a lot.  i learned to keep quiet, a lot.  i learned to take care of myself very early in life so i that i wouldn't have to rely on anyone else or have to ask anyone for anything.  i learned how to turn to friends and their families to help me get through.  And, i learned to rely on Jesus to stay with me and protect me. 
 i know what it means to feel all alone in the world, even when you live in a 3 bedroom house with 8 other humans, who have the same last name as yours but, who seem to be total strangers and even enemies.  i know what it feels like to not know from one day to the next if i will live or die, if i will have a home or not or, if i will ever be loved.  i know how it feels to not know the warmth and comfort of my mother's arms, ever.  i know how it feels to fear my father and yet depend so deeply on him.  i know how it feels to think that my life is a waste and everyone would be better off if i had never been born and to look for some way to end it, at 12 years old.  There were so many times in my first 18 years that i could have and, maybe should have, ended up in jail or dead but, i didn't.  i figured out how to stay alive and out of jail.  There were times when i thought i would never see 20 but, i did.  i survived.  i had made it through a rough start in life and i was out on my own and making my life what i wanted it to be and i never went back to that scary place.  Something inside of me had told me, all through my childhood that, if i could just survive until i was able to get out on my own, i could have a better life, i deserved a better life, and i could make a better life for myself.  i found positive ways to survive a very scary and hurtful childhood.  i found that i had the ability to choose to not take part in the chaos and hostility that was a regular part of my home life.  i could choose to remove myself from that mess and go to the library or go to a friend's house or to a girl scout meeting or go sit up in the big oak tree in my back yard.  i could choose to read books about other places and other people and other ways of living.  i could choose to pray for what i needed to make it through.  i learned that having an empty stomach isn't the worst thing in the world and that i can get by on crackers and water for a few days and it won't hurt me.  i believed that i could make my life different and better by getting away, as soon as i was old enough and never going back to that hurtful place and by making better choices for myself than my family had made. i didn't choose to steal, although i was tempted a few times.  i collected coke bottles and turned them in for the nickle deposits to get money and started babysitting at age 11 and working a part time job at 14 and i didn't have to lie or cheat or hurt others to get by.  i learned how to protect myself and how to rely on myself to survive.  i learned how to stay away from people who seemed to be harmful to me and how to get away from anything that didn't feel right to me.  i chose to join the Army and get as far away from a hurtful family as i could and make a decent life for myself. i didn't say there is always more than one choice in every situation, just that there is usually more than one.  And, i said that i wouldn't necessarily condemn anyone for deciding to resort to a negative or hurtful choice, in order to survive but, i wouldn't really admire them either.  i'm not saying i would never do the same thing, given the same set of circumstances that someone else is faced with.  i said that you never know how you will handle a situation until you are in it yourself.  But, i wouldn't consider it an admirable act to survive by causing someone else pain and hardship.  i know i wouldn't admire myself, if did that.  But, i understand that people do what they feel they need to do to survive.  i just don't think that merely surviving, by any means possible, including destructive and hurtful means, should automatically be considered admirable.  Survival, in and of itself, by any means, isn't necessarily admirable.  If that were the case, then no one would put "women and children, first."  It would always be "every man for himself and screw the rest." i know i am strong and capable of surviving a lot of hardships now because of what i faced early in life and, i also know that there are others who have had it far worse than i have.  But, i don't dwell on that part of my life and i don't expect anyone to admire me for living through a pretty bad childhood and making it through some other bad stuff as an adult.  i just use what i learn along the way to help me deal with my life now.  i have some issues still and i have learned to adapt to them.  For instance, i don't do well with chaos and uncertainty and an unpredictable daily life.  So, i looked for, and found, a Master who would provide me with a place where i can feel safe and sure in knowing that there is only one person in charge, only one who makes the final decisions, only one who sets the rules and all i have to do is whatever He says.  It's what works for me and He likes me doing whatever He says. slave joyOwned property of Master David 
quote:

ORIGINAL: welshwmn3
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
 Some people survive by stealing, by lying, by cheating, by conniving, by manipulating, by hurting or killing.  If that's what some people decide is necessary for them to do to survive, is that something to be admired? 


If stealing meant that they had enough food to stay alive another day?  If lying meant they had a chance to not be beat black and blue, on top of bruises that were only half healed from the last beating?  If hurting or killing (the perpetrator) got them out of the situation?  Yes, all that would be something to admire, because it helped them to live another day, to survive (physically) long enough to get them to a time when they could get out of that abusive and/or life threatening situation.


quote:

But, i do believe that there is usually more than one choice available in most situations and to choose a negative and hurtful choice over a positive and constructive one, in order to survive, is not what i would consider an admirable quality.


Sometimes, there is no choice.  A child who is being starved by the very parents who are supposed to care for them, who went to teacher after principal after babysitter after priest, and gets no help from anybody, has no other choice.  For that child, life is only pain, suffering, endless agony.  Unless they steal food and money to get some candy or bread or fruit to make it another day.  Unless they lie, knowing that if the lie is found out, they will be beat at least twice.  But also knowing that the rate of their parents at sussing out the lie is only 50%, and if they 'fess to the 'crime' they will get beat at least once anyways.

Which is worse?  Lying, stealing, selling themselves, or dying?  And if the option is dying, well, the human body is a lot harder to kill than people think.  No matter how hard somebody might want to die.

In my experience, people who believe there are more than one choice to any given obstical (and not all choices being worse, worser and worst), have never been put in a position where the only choices were to submit to torture and death, or lie, cheat, steal, and worse.

(in reply to welshwmn3)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 12:39:45 AM   
Switchblayde


Posts: 40
Joined: 6/3/2007
Status: offline 		I used to be a morphine and barbiturate addict. Among the reasons behind it were striving to attain the high ideals and standards my parents set and never being good enough. I was never a victim, never saw myself as one but I no longer run away from myself. I am however, a masochist, or, as Master puts it, a pain slut. That is something that is a part of me, defines me and, along with my past addictions and scars on my wrists makes me what I am.......a survivor. Stronger, balanced and no longer damaged.

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Jamais vaincu..........

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 7:59:12 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I admire Surivors in much the same I admire someone who sacrificed instant pleasure for hard work to advance himself to a higher position in a corporation as opposed to someone who never did much hard work, lived life in instant pleasures, and spent his life in a low end job.

I beleive hardships, rising past challenges, and suffering develop character.

However, its the character I admire and not simply the experiences they went threw.

There is quite a few people who have made high quality lives for themsleves who have no character I admire and a few people who live in poverty with high character I admire.

Just like there is quite a few people who went threw hard times and only became worse of a person, and not better, even though they managed to "Survive".



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(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 9:33:36 AM   
welshwmn3


Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

i found positive ways to survive a very scary and hurtful childhood.  i found that i had the ability to choose to not take part in the chaos and hostility that was a regular part of my home life.  i could choose to remove myself from that mess and go to the library or go to a friend's house or to a girl scout meeting or go sit up in the big oak tree in my back yard.  i could choose to read books about other places and other people and other ways of living.  i could choose to pray for what i needed to make it through.  i learned that having an empty stomach isn't the worst thing in the world and that i can get by on crackers and water for a few days and it won't hurt me.  i believed that i could make my life different and better by getting away, as soon as i was old enough and never going back to that hurtful place and by making better choices for myself than my family had made.



It's really good you had those choices.  Some people in similar circumstances don't. 

It appears that what you are saying is that, because you found the strength to not lie, steal, cheat, etc, then other people have those choices too.  What I'm saying is that not everybody had the choices you had. 

You had choices to hide, to go out of the house, to get away.  You had choices to read to escape mentally.  As you got older, you had choices to go work -- babysitting and getting a job, so you could have the money to buy something to eat.  Not everybody had those same choices.  In some cases, hiding could be more dangerous than taking the beating.  Or outside activities (like girl scouts) were completely taken away.  Time outside was curtailed by months long (literally) "groundings" keeping the child isolated from everybody else.  Or if the person actually did something to make money, it was all taken away, leaving them worse off than they'd been in the first place (because they'd done all this work and still had nothing to show for it).

quote:

Something inside of me had told me, all through my childhood that, if i could just survive until i was able to get out on my own, i could have a better life, i deserved a better life, and i could make a better life for myself. 


You're lucky you had a part of you that you could protect, that helped you through the dark times of your childhood.  You're lucky that you had hope.  Some people have hope so beaten out of them that they have no hope.  The only thing they can think of to do is whatever they need to do to exist.  Whatever that means.

quote:

i didn't say there is always more than one choice in every situation, just that there is usually more than one.  And, i said that i wouldn't necessarily condemn anyone for deciding to resort to a negative or hurtful choice, in order to survive but, i wouldn't really admire them either.


Yup, you said "usually".  But the attitude you are exibiting, both in your previous post and in this one (by your own words as in this quote), imply that if people didn't find the best choice (as defined by you) to survive, one that did not include stealing, lying, or anything worse, it wasn't admirable.  You choose to judge others by standards that are not applicable, and you find them wanting.  That's fine. It's your choice to do so. You get to have your feelings, thoughts and attitudes about anything you want.  But don't be surprised when people who were in different circumstances than you do not allow you to make that decision for them.

Because you don't get to decide for me what was right or admirable for me to do.  Based on your life experiences, you don't get to tell me what choices I had to decide from, in order to survive.  You don't get to judge my decisions until you truly walked in my shoes, not just walk in a similiar situation.  This is the reason I stopped going to survivor groups.  People who would choose to say, "well, I was in this exact same position, and I didn't do this or that, so if you did, well, it wasn't the best decision for you to do.  And while you survived, well, I can't admire what you did."  Yeah.  Similiar isn't the same.  Unless you were in a position where you couldn't hide, was kept out of girl scouts (and other after school activities), spent your entire summer "grounded" so you couldn't see or talk to friends (and thereby be completely isolated so that when you went to school nobody would believe you if you decided to talk about "family matters"), or told many adults, including teachers, principals, your sister's babysitter, and even an emergency room nurse, and was not listened to or minimized, you really can't decide what was 'admirable' when doing whatever was necessary to survive.

I stole.  I stole candy from the corner store in order to have enough calories to survive.  When I was caught and banned from the store, I found another store to steal from.  Oh, I didn't steal daily (see, that would have had me gain some weight, and the 'rents would have put me on an even more stringent 'diet').  But I stole. 

I lied.  CONSTANTLY.  But my choice was either lie and have a 50% chance of getting away without  beatings (plural, as it was very rarely only one beating at a time), or don't lie and have a 100% chance of getting beatings.  And then there were the times when no matter how much I told the truth, it wasn't enough.  They only wanted an excuse to beat me and so I was accused of lying and given more beatings.  Because of that, I learned that telling the truth didn't mean a thing.  The father once told a so-called social worker that he was right 99.9% of the time with me when I was in trouble, and that the .1% of the time he was wrong was about things that were so insignificant, it didn't matter.  She let him get away with it.

I also prostituted myself to get enough money to buy some fruit, or candy, so I could continue to live.  I was already being sexually abused by the man who I was asking for money from, but yeah.  I would go to him when he wasn't making any moves towards me and offer my body for twenty five cents.  Enough money to get SOMETHING to fill the void that was my stomach. 

Oh, but that probably isn't as noble as the time that same man (step-grandfather to me, natural grandfather to my half-sister) decided to go after her, and I made a pact with him to leave her alone and he could do anything he wanted with me (including full out sex, which up til then he hadn't done) and thus created more sexual abuse in my life.  My sister was only 3 at the time.  I was 13.  And before you ask, I'd told my mother what the pervert had been doing with me a few times previously, and only got accused of lying and stealing money from him, and beat for it.

What I did, the choices I made, were the only choices I had at the time.  And yes, I tried suicide too, many times.  Unfortunately (so I thought at the time) I didn't succeed in any of my attempts.  The only thing suicide attempts got me was worse abuse from the 'rents.  I am finally getting to were I am proud of what I did to survive (even my so-called prostitution), rather than be ashamed of my actions and of myself.  I survived.  Despite the 'rents trying to kill me (and yes, there were actual attempts on my life as well as the beatings and starvation), I survived.  I did what I had to and I'm still alive at almost 41.  And nobody can take that away from me.

Not the 'rents, and not people who think that my choices weren't the best ones I could make.  Those decisions were the only ones I was capable of making at the time.  I've worked long and hard to realize that I did what I had to in order to survive, and that anything I did during that time was not only acceptable, but admirable under the circumstances.  I refuse to go back to thinking I'm a peice of offal just because I had to lie, to steal, to sell myself when I was a child.  And I have to say to people who think I am unworthy because of my past, because of what I did to survive it, that there's the door, don't let it hit you on your way out.

I say, whatever somebody has to do, in order to physically survive, to include stealing, cheating, lying, prostitution, and yes, even killing a person (if there truly is abuse and it stops it from happening), is admirable. 




(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 10:45:31 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		There are two definite survivors right now.

One is a young Woman named Johanna. She was shot with a shotgun in the face by her rapist, after he was let out of jail pending trial because the jail was too full. There was an uproar about why they let him out but now the local news concentrates on her courage, the local paper is doing an eight part series on her recovery.

Her face is really FUBARed, and it will be years before she is any semblance of normal, yet she maintains good spirits somehow. According to the reports, not only after being raped, and now having been shot, she does not feel sorry for herself or anything of the sort.

Now I have been shot in the face, but not with a shotgun, with a .38. Nice clean entry hole, no exit hole, my head is just too hard. I can remember my attitude back then, it wasn't "Oh shit !", it was more like "This has happened, deal with it". But I was nowhere near as FUBARed as Johanna. Gotta hand it to her.

Another one is a seven year old who was in a plane piloted by his Father which went down into a body of water. This was just last week or something. His seat belt broke upon impact and he was somehow ejected from the craft, and his Father and sibling(s) went down and drowned. When the rescuers got to him he calmly explained that they were dead for sure, and that he would be alright. I really hope this kid mourns properly and is not some psycho waiting to happen. Whatever it is he had the fortitude to just take care of the business of survival at the time, and they didn't even have to throw him a line, he got onboard unassisted from what I heard.

True survivors are inspiring, especially to those of us who have considered it a personal triunph to get over our petty hangups and shit like that. After getting raped and then shot in the face like Johanna, you wouldn't be able to keep a stiff upper lip, they are still in the process of rebuilding it. Lose your Father and a brother at seven years old and take care of staying alive and worry about everything else later. Could I do it ? I don't know. But neither one of these kids apparently sees themselves as a victim, and that much I like to think I have in common with them. I will not take victim status, ever, although I haven't been tested quite as extensively as these two kids. (Johanna is a teenager and the boy is seven)

I hope I pass my next test.

T

(in reply to welshwmn3)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 9:58:35 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: welshwmn3
quote:

i didn't say there is always more than one choice in every situation, just that there is usually more than one.  And, i said that i wouldn't necessarily condemn anyone for deciding to resort to a negative or hurtful choice, in order to survive but, i wouldn't really admire them either.


Yup, you said "usually".  But the attitude you are exibiting, both in your previous post and in this one (by your own words as in this quote), imply that if people didn't find the best choice (as defined by you) to survive, one that did not include stealing, lying, or anything worse, it wasn't admirable.  You choose to judge others by standards that are not applicable, and you find them wanting.  That's fine. It's your choice to do so. You get to have your feelings, thoughts and attitudes about anything you want.  But don't be surprised when people who were in different circumstances than you do not allow you to make that decision for them.


I believe as you do, that a person has to do whatever a person has to do when in a life threatening situation in order to physically survive. But I also agree with slavegirljoy in that while I would be glad that the person survived...I wouldn't necessarily view their actions as admirable. I think it is unfortunate that sometimes people have to resort to extreme or negative things in order to survive....but I do understand that there are times when those things may be the only option. While I would take great comfort in knowing that they had survived no matter what the cost, I would also feel badly for them that they had to resort to such measures. No one should ever be in a situation where they have to make those kinds of choices.

Your post is very angry and bitter. I am truly sorry for what you had to endure and I am very glad that you survived. I most sincerely hope for you that there will come a day when you find peace and can then begin to, as Celeste so aptly termed it, thrive.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 9/15/2007 9:59:24 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to welshwmn3)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 10:20:32 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		i don't fault you for what you felt you had to do, as a child, to survive your difficult circumstances.  i don't hold children to the same level of accountability that i hold adults.  And, i would never say to you or, anyone, that i would never do what you did, if i were in your situation.  i have already said that i can't put myself in someone else's shoes or know what i would do, without actually being in that situation.  But, while i don't fault you, i also don't consider your means of survival as admirable behavior.  You did what you felt you had to do and, you survived and you made it out of that horrible situation.  That's good and, hopefully, your life is much better now.  It's understandable and also sad, to me, that you felt you couldn't choose more positive ways of surviving.  It makes me mad that the people responsible for your care didn't do their job and caused their child to live under such awful conditions.  i feel sympathy for what you had to endure but, i don't admire some of the behavior you chose, in order to endure and overcome your difficult circumstances.  i'm not saying, "shame on you" but, i am also not going to say, "bravo", "excellent" or any other accolades of admiration.
 
Yes, our situations were different and i am not going to compare who had it worse.  Regardless of what the particular circumstances were, we both had to live under very difficult and frightening conditions and no child should ever have to live with fear and feelings of hopelessness.  A child shouldn't have to be afraid of her own family, for any reason.  Yes, i had choices and, certainly, i had choices that you didn't have but, i also had the same choice to steal, which i was tempted to do many times but, chose not to, and had the same choice to lie and to do other negative behavior but, i chose to take another path. 
 
i'm not saying that your path was wrong.  Obviously, it was the right path for you because it allowed you to get through that painful ordeal and better your life.  i just don't consider everything that you did as something to be admired.  You're a survivor.  That's good.  But, just being a survivor, in my opinion, isn't something, in and of itself, to be admired.  So, i don't admire everyone who's a survivor.  That's just me.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to welshwmn3)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/15/2007 11:14:47 PM   
welshwmn3


Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Your post is very angry and bitter. I am truly sorry for what you had to endure and I am very glad that you survived. I most sincerely hope for you that there will come a day when you find peace and can then begin to, as Celeste so aptly termed it, thrive.


No.  My post is not "very angry and bitter".  I just have problems with people who try and tell me what was and was not acceptable choices for me, when they don't know what my choices were.  Just like I have problems with people who try to tell me how I'm feeling.

You know me from, at best, 89 previous posts (if you've read them all).  That's not enough posts to give you an insight on whether I'm living and thriving in my life or not.  Definately not enough to decide whether I've come to peace with what I've lived through, or not. 

What I had to endure was just my life.  *shrugs* To me, it was normal (unfortunately).  I didn't realize that other people didn't have to make the choices I had, to suffer the consequences of other peoples hate, anger, rage and self-contempt as I did.  In some ways that made it a bit easier for me, thinking that everybody had to go through the same thing I was going through. 

You don't think that such actions as I had to take are admirable.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.




(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/16/2007 12:03:49 AM   
welshwmn3


Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

 
Yes, our situations were different and i am not going to compare who had it worse. 

 
If you got the idea that I was trying to compare who had it worse, then I obviously was not clear on what I was trying to convey.  What I was trying to say was that you had choices available to you that I didn't have.  That it's very easy for people to say "usually people have options available to them other than bad and worse" when they didn't have only the bad or worse options, and no other.   You had options that enabled you to do some things that helped you survive without having to lie or steal.  I didn't have those options.  That doesn't mean either of us had it better.  It just means we had it different.

Just as you wouldn't like me saying "you had these options, so you had it easy", I don't like it when I'm hearing people say "you could just have chosen the high road and not done that, too bad you gave in so easy".  To me, that's like telling the rape victem that she shouldn't have fought back (they wouldn't have had to shoot her then), or she should have fought back (she gave them the perfect victem by not fighting back).
 
quote:

 Yes, i had choices and, certainly, i had choices that you didn't have but, i also had the same choice to steal, which i was tempted to do many times but, chose not to, and had the same choice to lie and to do other negative behavior but, i chose to take another path. 

 
I'm sure you don't see how this sounds like, "I'm better than you, because I was able to take the high road and you weren't."  You admit that you might have had choices I didn't have, but yet, there is still implied condemnation when you use words like "negative behavior".   If you had other options available to you that I didn't have, then you didn't have the "same choice to steal".  The fact that you had other options available to you negates that 'sameness', because the only options I had were steal (bad) or sell myself (worse).

 
quote:

i'm not saying that your path was wrong.
 
By using judgements -- words like "negative behavior" -- when refering to the things I said I'd had to do, and stating that you chose differently for your choices, even though you admit that you (most likely) had more choices available to you than I did, yes, you are saying my path was wrong.
 
quote:

  Obviously, it was the right path for you because it allowed you to get through that painful ordeal and better your life.  i just don't consider everything that you did as something to be admired.  You're a survivor.  That's good.

 
You damn me with faint praise here.  Would I be more "admirable" if I'd allowed myself to die from starvation?  Or if I'd succeeded in any one of my suicide attempts?  How about if I'd just not done anything to keep my half-sister from being abused as I was, because, after all, that was a choice I made to willingly engage in 'negative behaviors' and actually help one of the abusers continue to abuse me? 
 
I am much more than a survivor.  I have worked hard in overcoming my past, and am doing a good job of it (at least, the people who count in my life -- including me -- think I am).  Right now, I am doing things that, as a child, I was told I could never do.  I'm living my life and succeeding in doing so.  I am an artist, writer, and a teacher of my art.  I am happily married to a wonderful man to whom I am also collared, who loves and cherishes me, even with all my flaws.  I am also collared to another wonderful man who also loves and cherishes me.  I have a stepdaughter that doesn't know what the word 'abuse' means (and this I am most proud of).  I am active in social clubs, and have close friends, people who call me 'sister', even though we weren't born of the same family. 

But most of all, I've come to realize the abuse was not my fault, that the choices I made were actually the best ones I could have made at the time I made them.  When I was finally out of the abusive household, I was able to make better choices, like not stealing or lying or selling myself.  But at the time, I had no other options.

And nobody can tell me that my choosing to engage in 'negative behaviors', when they were the best options I had, were wrong, or somehow worse than others who had other options that allowed them to not necessarily engage in 'negative behaviors'.   When you say that people usually have more options than just bad, worse and worst to choose from, you are, indeed, implying that if they choose the 'negative' behaviors and options, that they are less than, that they are wrong.

If you do not see how this can be seen this way, there is nothing else for us to say to each other on this issue.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/16/2007 4:10:10 AM   
Babybass


Posts: 230
Joined: 7/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

There is a star trek movie in which kirk says I do not want my pain taken away it is apart of who i am. Who we are.
every thing we come in to contact in in life makes up a little of us. Nothing in the world can change that. But it can guide us on how to make a better furture if we learn from it. Most do not learn from it  in that lays the problem


I agree with this - we are the sum of our experiences. Some of what i have gone through i would not wish on any other person - but i am stronger for it and i am who i am today because of it. It has given me a great belief in my own strength and my ability to cope. I am happy with the person i am today so i have to accept and embrace the darkness i have come through.

_____________________________

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting" - e e cummings

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/16/2007 7:25:11 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		welshwmn3,
First, it's my sincere wish that no child would ever have to go through what you went through.  Also, i hope that you're now at a place in your life where you don't feel that you have no other choice but to steal and lie to survive.  If you don't consider stealing and lying to be negative behaviors then that's your value system.  my value system doesn't include stealing and lying as positive behavior or behavior to be admired.  i understand that acts of desperation can cause someone to resort to less than admirable behavior but, that doesn't make the behavior any more admirable, to me.  i never said that you should have taken "the high road" or, that you took the easy way.  i wouldn't tell anyone what they should or shouldn't have done in their situation.  i also never said that the path i chose was "the high road", just that it was a different path from the one that you chose.

Second, i posted a response to the OP, which asked for the thoughts and feelings of others about whether we feel admiration for people who have survived a bad experience.  i stated that i don't automatically admire everyone who is a survivor and i stated my reasons why.  To me, stealing and lying, for whatever reason, are behaviors that i don't value as exemplary and i don't admire them.  So, i don't automatically admire a survivor of a bad situation, when they did so by stealing and lying.  Finally, i believe that it's important to realize and accept how the choices we make and, the consequences of those choices, affects our life and our feelings of self-worth.  i think that's an important step in understanding ourselves, in healing from painful experiences, and in learning how to make better choices for ourselves.  Being able to see all of the choices that we have available and the potential consequences of each choice helps us to weigh our options and make the best choice in any particular situation.  Even the choice to do nothing at all, is, after all, still a choice.  Sometimes we don't see all of the choices that are available and sometimes we don't think of all of the possible consequences of the choices, until afterward.  Hindsight and reflection about our past choices can be valuable tools to help us with our future decision-making ability.   To me, being admired is not what's important.  Learning to accept ourselves and learning from our past experiences, in order to live a more positive, healthy, and fulfilling life, is what's important to me.  Part of learning to accept ourself, i believe, is to understand how the choices we make plays a part in shaping our lives.  
slave joyOwned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: welshwmn3 
If you got the idea that I was trying to compare who had it worse, then I obviously was not clear on what I was trying to convey.  What I was trying to say was that you had choices available to you that I didn't have.  That it's very easy for people to say "usually people have options available to them other than bad and worse" when they didn't have only the bad or worse options, and no other.   You had options that enabled you to do some things that helped you survive without having to lie or steal.  I didn't have those options.  That doesn't mean either of us had it better.  It just means we had it different.

Just as you wouldn't like me saying "you had these options, so you had it easy", I don't like it when I'm hearing people say "you could just have chosen the high road and not done that, too bad you gave in so easy".  To me, that's like telling the rape victem that she shouldn't have fought back (they wouldn't have had to shoot her then), or she should have fought back (she gave them the perfect victem by not fighting back). 
I'm sure you don't see how this sounds like, "I'm better than you, because I was able to take the high road and you weren't."  You admit that you might have had choices I didn't have, but yet, there is still implied condemnation when you use words like "negative behavior".   If you had other options available to you that I didn't have, then you didn't have the "same choice to steal".  The fact that you had other options available to you negates that 'sameness', because the only options I had were steal (bad) or sell myself (worse).
 
By using judgements -- words like "negative behavior" -- when refering to the things I said I'd had to do, and stating that you chose differently for your choices, even though you admit that you (most likely) had more choices available to you than I did, yes, you are saying my path was wrong.
  
You damn me with faint praise here.  Would I be more "admirable" if I'd allowed myself to die from starvation?  Or if I'd succeeded in any one of my suicide attempts?  How about if I'd just not done anything to keep my half-sister from being abused as I was, because, after all, that was a choice I made to willingly engage in 'negative behaviors' and actually help one of the abusers continue to abuse me? 
 
I am much more than a survivor.  I have worked hard in overcoming my past, and am doing a good job of it (at least, the people who count in my life -- including me -- think I am).  Right now, I am doing things that, as a child, I was told I could never do.  I'm living my life and succeeding in doing so.  I am an artist, writer, and a teacher of my art.  I am happily married to a wonderful man to whom I am also collared, who loves and cherishes me, even with all my flaws.  I am also collared to another wonderful man who also loves and cherishes me.  I have a stepdaughter that doesn't know what the word 'abuse' means (and this I am most proud of).  I am active in social clubs, and have close friends, people who call me 'sister', even though we weren't born of the same family. 

But most of all, I've come to realize the abuse was not my fault, that the choices I made were actually the best ones I could have made at the time I made them.  When I was finally out of the abusive household, I was able to make better choices, like not stealing or lying or selling myself.  But at the time, I had no other options.

And nobody can tell me that my choosing to engage in 'negative behaviors', when they were the best options I had, were wrong, or somehow worse than others who had other options that allowed them to not necessarily engage in 'negative behaviors'.   When you say that people usually have more options than just bad, worse and worst to choose from, you are, indeed, implying that if they choose the 'negative' behaviors and options, that they are less than, that they are wrong.

If you do not see how this can be seen this way, there is nothing else for us to say to each other on this issue.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

(in reply to welshwmn3)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/17/2007 6:48:16 PM   
alandraofMists


Posts: 187
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

There is a star trek movie in which kirk says I do not want my pain taken away it is apart of who i am. Who we are.


The quote that i say to myself when i need help getting through the tough times is...

What does not kill me, makes me stronger

a qoute from one of the Conan movies

Knight's Alandra

(in reply to Babybass)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/17/2007 7:31:48 PM   
welshwmn3


Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy


  Also, i hope that you're now at a place in your life where you don't feel that you have no other choice but to steal and lie to survive.


If you have to ask that, then you didn't read my post.

From my post, which you quoted in it's entirety when you replied to me:

quote:

When I was finally out of the abusive household, I was able to make better choices, like not stealing or lying or selling myself.  But at the time, I had no other options.


I am not going to continue to defend myself to you.  The only ones I have to answer to are my Doms, and they both think that engaging in the "negative" behaviors that I did for survival, there is nothing wrong with it. 

If they think I'm ok, and have nothing to be shamed of and everything to be proud of, well, who am I to argue with them?

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/17/2007 8:53:24 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alandraofMists

The quote that i say to myself when i need help getting through the tough times is...

What does not kill me, makes me stronger


GEEEZ  no wonder I can't break you... I have to kill!   and here all I have been doing is making you stronger....


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to alandraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/17/2007 9:20:34 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		It's late and I'm short on time.  I popped on here to catch up on some emails and decided to peek at the forums.  Seeing this thread I wanted to reply even though I haven't had time to read past the first page because I saw two perspectives on the first page that intrigued me and between them hit on what I think are some key points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

So.. what do Survivors do for you?

This is the first thing that leapt out at me.  Much of what KOM wrote resonates with me.  There are those women who play the role of the victim to often, or at least play the victim card.  I've no problem helping someone who needs it.  I've done alright for myself... why not give a helping hand up here and there.  But, someone who plays the victim most likely just plunked herself on my "friends only" list, if she had any hopes of playing a victim to gain any other form of relationship... she just screwed herself.  There's a reason for that, victims are a drag.  They drain you emotionally, they can't keep up, they slow you down... it's not a healthy situation for a relationship because it tends to be a one way street... all take for them, all give for you... and that sucks!

Survivors are different; they aren't looking to be rescued since they already did that themselves.  A survivor can give back, maybe not right this instant but give'em a lil bit and they'll be back on their feet and then it's give and take like it should be.  The fact that a Survivor did manage to deal with whatever misfortune came their way and bounced back says something else, that I don't have to worry so much about them.  Its nice knowing someone you're considering opening up to emotionally can take care of themselves... less chance for heartbreak that way.

But... then LA kicked out the flip side.

quote:

We've all got it hard- why is the woman who FINALLY left her husband AFTER he beat her and her kids so bad that they had to go to the hospital celebrated a bit more than the woman who chose a stable husband and led a boring simple life together?

And there it is... my first choice... the Winner.  Survivors are good, but Winners are better.  There's an old adage that the best warrior is one who never has to fight... he sees the conflict coming and averts it (not avoid, avert... big difference when you think about it).  While I can respect someone who can survive life's misfortunes, which happen to us all, some people seem to make a habit of having to survive their own mistakes.  I'd rather the person who can not only survive, but who can avert the misfortune in the first place so that there's no need to survive it.  I prefer someone who makes good choices, has good judgement, someone who's got their life together already.  That person has the most to offer me, and will take the least from me... and mostly we'll just enjoy sharing.

So what does a Survivor do for me... they're nice, but Winners are better.  What's a Winner?  Someone who took surviving to the next level.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/17/2007 11:12:31 PM   
RigelTheRed


Posts: 6
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I realized that when learn of a person and. learn that have become victimized in their pasts.. but found themselves out of the victimizaton... found themselves into a point of what I call a survivor. ... I can't help but admire these individuals. In some ways.... I find such female individuals to more attractive to me after I have learned the knowledge.


What exactly do you mean by a victim?  All of us go through hard times; some more than others.  Tough experiences, such as overcoming a bad relationship, or military boot camp, or working your a$$ off to pay the rent often make us stronger later.  However, your use of the words "victims" and "survivors" indicates to me (and correct me if I am wrong) that you are talking about someone who has been traumatized.   My experience has been that people who have been through severe trauma, especially childhood trauma, often struggle with it for years. 

I think alot of the public's opinion on survivors has come from the media.   (Insert name here) has a crappy childhood and as a result they grow up to have their own law firm, or be a superhero, or strike back at the dark side of society.

If you were say, molested by a family member as a child, do you really think that is going to have a positive effect on you?

I didn't have the greatest childhood.  Some of my friends and family have been through much worse.  I think that I was one of the ones who was right on that border line between trial and trauma and was not all that affected.  But even so I still have some issues that I attribute to my past.  Others I know who certainly crossed that line have a much  harder time.

As someone said earlier, we are a result of our experiences.  I believe (and here come the flames)  that a person with a stable uneventfull upbringing is probably going to have better self esteem, be better adjusted, more stable, and have less problems with depression, ect than someone traumatized as a child.

Those who come out stronger for it are the blessed exception to the rule.

< Message edited by RigelTheRed -- 9/18/2007 12:05:04 AM >

_____________________________

People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --George Orwell

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/17/2007 11:59:40 PM   
unsung


Posts: 183
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline 		Driver I very much liked your feedback to the OP re: his ponderings.  

< Message edited by unsung -- 9/18/2007 12:00:24 AM >

(in reply to Driver1961)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/18/2007 6:10:36 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, welshwmn3, i read your post.  i have read all of the posts you have made in response to my response to the OP, which stated my opinion about feelings of admiration for survivors.
 
In my last reply to you, i failed to put in the words, "ever again."  i meant to say,  "Also, i hope that you're now at a place in your life where you don't feel that you have no other choice but to steal and lie to survive, ever again."  i know that right now you're not having to steal and lie to survive.  But, i truly hope that you won't ever again find yourself in a position where you feel as though you have no other choice but to fall back on those old survival skills of yours, that you relied on during your childhood.  As an adult, the consequences of lying and stealing could be much more severe, if you get caught.  That's one reason why many people consider the acts of stealing and lying to be negative behavior, even if you don't.
 
It would be nice, if you could read my posts without inserting words i never used.  i never said that it was "wrong" for you to have chosen negative behavior, in order to survive.  In fact, i said, and i'll quote,
quote:

i'm not saying that your path was wrong.  Obviously, it was the right path for you because it allowed you to get through that painful ordeal and better your life.
 

Of course, it makes no difference whether i feel admiration for you or not.  Which is why i am a little perplexed why you have continued to try to justify your negative behavior in your replies to my response to the OP.  i don't know you or anything about you, apart from what you have stated in your posts.  There is a very good chance that i wouldn't admire you, even if you had never been a thief or a liar, since i really don't admire too many people.  i have very high standards for people that i consider to be truly admirable, in my opinion.  And, that's what feelings of admiration is based on, opinion.  But, there has never been a liar or a thief that i have admired.
 
i still wish you all the best for your future and truly do hope that you will continue to have many more choices for how you live your life than you had as a child.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: welshwmn3

If you have to ask that, then you didn't read my post.

From my post, which you quoted in it's entirety when you replied to me:

quote:

When I was finally out of the abusive household, I was able to make better choices, like not stealing or lying or selling myself.  But at the time, I had no other options.


I am not going to continue to defend myself to you.  The only ones I have to answer to are my Doms, and they both think that engaging in the "negative" behaviors that I did for survival, there is nothing wrong with it. 

If they think I'm ok, and have nothing to be shamed of and everything to be proud of, well, who am I to argue with them?

(in reply to welshwmn3)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/18/2007 6:58:00 AM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: unsung

Driver I very much liked your feedback to the OP re: his ponderings.  


He dips His lid;  Thankyou unsung.  I will sing your praise in my phonebox to all my friends!

I find it interesting (if not a tad sad actually) that people have posted here and on http://www.collarchat.com/m_1260905/mpage_7/tm.htm (Feelings of Worthlessness) without duly understanding others' posts. (Aswad tried to express this very constructively in 'Feelings') Hence they have made judgements that have not helped these threads that require understanding.   Sure people can disagree with other posters but have they travelled similar roads?  So how can they make judgements if not first attempting understanding.  

It is clear that raw nerves have been hit in 'some' posters that see themselves as survivors- yet their responses indicate they  are still 'surviving' and beginning to 'live' or possibly past the 'living' to 'thriving' but still not peaceable with their thoughts.   Their growth is admirable to me because it is measurable and real.  They have a perspective of their pain. 

Yes One may attempt to discredit ther 'pain' but it shows a distinct arrogance.

The Ones who seek to not understand but judge based upon their measurable strength are (in my eyes alone) totally discrediting themselves for they show NO UNDERSTANDING of  the "absolute of Pain". 

"Pain is Pain" (A very wise 'surviving' subbie once said to me) "My pain may not be your pain but to me it is not measurable in comparison.  It may or may not be as high as your pain, but it is high pain to me".   I pondered on her words and yes she is right.   I have no right to sit in judgement of her pain and say it is not as bad as what she states.  I judge from a different perspective of life experiences (mine not hers) and I am arrogant to condemn her judgement without first understanding her persective.

We can live to survive, we can live to experince life, and yes ,..... we can live to thrive.  All of these aspects of 'living' are subjective to our own life experiences.
It would be excellent if I too could remember this all the time (Me oh humble imperfect, 'prone to arrogance' little dot)  I ask that other's consider their arrogance in judging others' pain.
 
These two threads in particular display 'Triumphs of the human spirit" and there are many ways that the "Human spirit can triumph".   These threads are but a small example, however they are very clear examples.

Forget the surviving, let's praise the living and the thriving! 

 
Warm regards Driver.

< Message edited by Driver1961 -- 9/18/2007 7:13:41 AM >

_____________________________

Dance as though nobody is watching!

(in reply to unsung)
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